Aurora 4x

Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Erik L on May 10, 2010, 04:17:54 PM

Title: RPG Systems
Post by: Erik L on May 10, 2010, 04:17:54 PM
Not sure how many of you play RPGs, but I've been pondering a question. Is a "universal" system better than separate systems for each game?

To me, the advantages are:

The disads I see are:
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: mavikfelna on May 10, 2010, 07:42:27 PM
I play alot of GURPS and over all I like the system. I do have some complaints and I'd prefer a slightly different ruleset, but having a universal system is nice. And the amount of material out for GURPS is pretty huge, giving you lots and lots of options for what you can play.

I dislike class and level systems and I really dislike the new D&D 4.0E. The attempts to turn those kinds of systems into universal systems have usually been pretty poor.

I like the versatility of universal systems and I'm all for seeing more of them as long as they are well done and can get some interesting settings.

What I'd really like to see is something with the add/disadd system of GURPS/HERO System with a few more stats, I generally like 8 or 9, and a percent based system with difficulty modifiers helping set target levels. Of course, I've been working on such a system (Open Generic Roleplaying Engine, or OGRE System) for twenty five odd years off and on and not gotten any closer to finishing it.

--Mav
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Erik L on May 10, 2010, 08:13:35 PM
I've been doing a lot of work on Via Astrum lately, and I've been contemplating pulling the core mechanics and concepts out of the system into a universal system. This would allow me to create source/worldbooks without reinventing the wheel as it were.

The base system has 9 stats, Strength, Agility, Stamina, Appearance, Intelligence, Sense, Willpower, Charisma and Luck. The system is d10 based with exploding dice (not literally :twisted: ). For most rolls, if you roll a 10, you get to reroll and add, and continue as long as you roll 10's.

Character generation is a bit unlike most other games. Each race has a set value on their stats, and characters get a number of points (3-4) to add to stats as they see fit. Characters also receive talents. Talents are similar to feats (D&D 3.5+, NWP D&D 2). Characters gain a limited number of these at creation (1-3 usually), and may purchase new ones with experience. Talents could be considered analogous to advantages also. They fill a similar role. Stats & skills are also raised via experience purchase. I don't have disads, mainly because the base system is not point-oriented.

I do have classes in the system, but no levels. Classes are similar to the old-school Traveller professions, adding to skills and stats. Again, similar to Traveller, you don't progress through your class, it's more of a "This is what I did before I started adventuring".

Combat is a simple 1d10 + skill + stat vs a Target Number. Meet or exceed the TN, and you succeed in the attack. This is also how skill resolution works. Opposed rolls both parties roll and compare. The higher total is the victor.

Combat is fairly deadly in the system. A light pistol can kill a person on a lucky damage roll. This of course, assumes no armor. Since Via Astrum had its genesis in Astra Imperium, there are 3 basic damage types; Kinetic, Thermal, and EM. There is a fourth, non-typed damage which is reserved for situations where the damage does not fit one of those categories. Armor protects against one or more of the damage types. Health is the non-lethal aspect of taking damage. In a simple sense, every 10 points of Health damage does 1 Wound, which is counted against Stamina. Zero Health = Unconsciousness, Zero Stamina = Death.

There are a couple additional derived stats, Stress and Morale. These make combats more on the gritty realistic side of things. When Stress is reduced to zero (opposite of the logical way), the character is basically in a combat paralysis, shell-shocked, etc. Once Morale has depleted to zero, the character has broken and will attempt to flee.

In all, I can see additions, mainly through classes, talents and skills to make any variety of RPG genre, fantasy, sci-fi, superhero, modern, horror, etc.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: sluissa on May 11, 2010, 03:22:34 AM
I voted undecided. I like the idea of the universal rule sets, but I've never seen one that works without causing significant problems somewhere.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: AndonSage on May 11, 2010, 03:23:01 PM
I voted No. I have yet to find a Universal system that I liked more than a specific system.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Erik L on May 11, 2010, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: "AndonSage"
I voted No. I have yet to find a Universal system that I liked more than a specific system.

Out of curiosity, what makes the specific systems better than the universal?
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: boggo2300 on May 11, 2010, 06:54:50 PM
I personally lean towards a house system more than a generic universal system, like GDW did with the house system culled from 2nd edition twilight 2000 that they then used for Traveller:New Era (shudder)

Keeping the same basic mechanic, but actually fully tailoring the game for situation seems to work much better than universal systems, I like GURPS, but it's rules are only usable because they started off so simple (as the fantasy trip, based on the original pocket game melee) even coming from such a simple background because it hs to be everything to everybody it's just gotten unwieldy.

So use the same basic mechanic, that comes in very useful as it lets you move game components from one system to another when it is needed (like a TL7 army we had to deal with in TNE which was actually equipped as a US army division from T2000) but if you're not trying to cover every eventuality in the rules you can focus on the ones you need for THIS setting and reduce the rule load somewhat


Hope that actually made sense, my heads a bit congested and not working 100%

Matt.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Erik L on May 11, 2010, 08:15:18 PM
Quote from: "boggo2300"
I personally lean towards a house system more than a generic universal system, like GDW did with the house system culled from 2nd edition twilight 2000 that they then used for Traveller:New Era (shudder)

Keeping the same basic mechanic, but actually fully tailoring the game for situation seems to work much better than universal systems, I like GURPS, but it's rules are only usable because they started off so simple (as the fantasy trip, based on the original pocket game melee) even coming from such a simple background because it hs to be everything to everybody it's just gotten unwieldy.

So use the same basic mechanic, that comes in very useful as it lets you move game components from one system to another when it is needed (like a TL7 army we had to deal with in TNE which was actually equipped as a US army division from T2000) but if you're not trying to cover every eventuality in the rules you can focus on the ones you need for THIS setting and reduce the rule load somewhat


Hope that actually made sense, my heads a bit congested and not working 100%

Matt.

That's similar to what I'm leaning towards.

But this brings up another question. Suppose you buy Game X, a sci-fi game. Then you go out and buy Game Y, a fantasy game. Both are based on the same system, however to make each as self-sufficient as possible, a lot of the rules are similar, if not the same between the two games. Would you feel cheated at this point or not?
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: boggo2300 on May 11, 2010, 10:21:53 PM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"

That's similar to what I'm leaning towards.

But this brings up another question. Suppose you buy Game X, a sci-fi game. Then you go out and buy Game Y, a fantasy game. Both are based on the same system, however to make each as self-sufficient as possible, a lot of the rules are similar, if not the same between the two games. Would you feel cheated at this point or not?

Personally I'm happier getting a system as a self contained working game, rather than the world book, game rules method of Gurps (mind you if you play a lot of different games on the same system, and I mean a lot, then the GURPS method is obviously a saving)  

I would much rather get everything I need to start playing in one go, leaving other purchases for expanding things.

Matt
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: AndonSage on May 17, 2010, 02:50:28 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
Quote from: "AndonSage"
I voted No. I have yet to find a Universal system that I liked more than a specific system.
Out of curiosity, what makes the specific systems better than the universal?
For me, a specific system tailored to a genre just works better than a generic universal system. I just prefer, for example, AD&D 2nd Ed. vs. the D20 system. Or Rolemaster and Spacemaster vs. GURPS.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: ZimRathbone on May 23, 2010, 08:24:41 AM
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
Quote from: "AndonSage"
I voted No. I have yet to find a Universal system that I liked more than a specific system.

Out of curiosity, what makes the specific systems better than the universal?

For me its the background stuff that tends to sell a game, and universal games, by their very nature, give less attention to this.  Its kind of why I liked early editions of Starfire (up to 3rdR), and couldnt get enough enthusiasm to buy the later editions even (or maybe especially) after reading the rules - the later works may well have been better balanced, but did not generate sufficient emotional interest to get me engaged. (BTW I'm not keen on chess either)
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Andrew on May 23, 2010, 10:02:18 AM
I like RPG Backgrounds so I buy games for background and if a game has a system which is specifically fitted to its background(Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Ars Magica) I approve of that however there are other games which have a background I like (Traveller(paritucalrly TNE) WH40K RPG's, WFRP(All versions)) where I find the system to be a bit of a barrier to the game and run using a preferred system GURPS , Runequest(BRP), HERO System.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Erik L on May 23, 2010, 11:23:41 AM
I think I will create a generic framework, and adapt that on a per-game basis; rather than doing source/worldbooks.  This allows me more time for setting work over mechanics.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Gilferedir on August 05, 2011, 02:50:44 AM
Sorry for posting on an old topic, but I'm new to Aurora and happened to come across this while browsing the forums and it's new to me. :D  Anyways, I've been playing RPGs my whole life and to me an RPG is all about the system, sure a good story can make a good game, but I think it's the system that makes a great game.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Maou Tsaou on April 30, 2012, 06:05:59 PM
As this is right up my alley, and I need a few posts to qualify as a person, I'll babble to an old thread for a bit.
. . .
It takes a very abstract game to break out of the universal concept altogether, tic-tac-toe for example, while RPG's rely on universality by nature.
Skywalker, Bond, and Baggins all share the same gravity, that is 1g with occasional tweaks for dramatic effect.

The problem I find with many genera specific games is one of translation.
What they focus on tends to be very detailed and complex but other areas tend to get glossed over or ignored.
That glossing over process is actually important to what I call "framing" a game.
A swords and sorcery dungeon crawl doesn't require much in the way of large scale structure, just the randomly populated hole in the ground and the town to spend the loot in, but the more "open" the game the less you can gloss over.
Genera specific games can be excellent within their given frames but still require quite a bit of additional "system" for more open approaches and the detail and complexity can cause headaches when trying to add additional systems such as a playable economic system.

The problem I find with "universal" systems is the tendency toward oversimplification.
IMO a good RPG "system" provides two main things; simple, fair, and FUN tools for deciding the "BANG! Got you!", "Na uh, you missed!" question, and tools that help to focus all the players on the same imaginative page so to speak.
My "universal" RPG of choice is a highly tweaked version of TFT.
It's a d6 system with 3 stats and a movement allowance on a 1. 3m hex-grid over 5 second turns.
In the magic system a Wizard can spend ST points (as fatigue) to cast a given spell.
For a Fireball a Wizard can do x-dam per 1pt ST in a simple, straight forward manner that mechanically works well.
I used this for years before I thought to start asking my players what it was they saw when using a fireball.
It was actually quite interesting the many varieties of fireball "visuals" I've collected once I bothered to ask.
For all I know every person at the table had a different mental image of a fireball when I was just using the mechanic with no detail.

So for open campaigns I have a simple but playable universal system for anything not framed out specifically.
If the campaign is the course of one characters life and its a medieval fantasy setting then I don't need to sweat space travel but I should have something better than a price list for economics, something better than a hex-map of terrain with some boarders for politics, etc.
I then let the players determine what to make more complex through their play.
For example, I have been using Civilization as a kind of campaign manager for years now.
If players get focused on an area around a particular city and start building strongholds and whatnot then they've popped the quantum into a SimCity presentation for that city.
Players that dabble in politics (Illumaniti) and get to be mayor get to run the interface over their term.
Generals get to see the battle-map, railroad tycoons get to dabble in Railroad Tycoon, etc.
In other words an open RPG campaign should take place in a gameworld that works universally, more or less.
It's the sandbox of RPG's where story results from play.
None of which says that genera specific systems can't be incorporated into the mix, I'm just saying I've seen too much genera specific stuff that has huge chunks of obvious system stuff missing.
Not long ago I came across most of the GURPS WWII supps at a second hand store.
I was interested to find that there wasn't much of anything at all for handling actual battles from a command pov.
It was suitable for an Inglorious Bastards type thing but being in field command meant little except some skill rolls.
I managed a playable system using a combo of the WWII 1937 scenario in Civ IV, Squad Leader, and TFT with a lot drawn from the GURPS books.
Now if a player had tried to go awol and become a war profiteer that would have been interesting but it wouldn't have changed the need to keep track of the war in game terms.
The sandbox lets players go "off script" without screwing up things the way it would for a "plotted scenario".
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on April 30, 2012, 06:18:40 PM
Savage Worlds is a universal system; very streamlined, works way better for actually playing games with people than GURPS and the like.  Been using it for virtual pen and paper for the past few months and i'm very happy with it.  Before that it was frakking... Exalted. God, the munchkinism...
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Erik L on April 30, 2012, 07:00:00 PM
The poll (and thread) were geared more to which type of ruleset people preferred, rather than an explicit ruleset.

I've got a fantasy RPG (with roots in D&D type games if you look hard enough), and a space rpg. The space game (Via Astrum) drew upon Shadowrun, Traveller, Cyberpunk, and bits and pieces from here and there along with brain nuggets of my own. I was tempted to use the rules for that as a basis for other games as well. At this time though there are just the two rpgs in development, Eldritch Adventures and Via Astrum. A really quickly aborted attempt to mold EA into the VA rules frame would have required a complete re-write and lose a lot of what I think EA has that is unique.

I do keep the generic rules up-to-date as I work on VA as VA was the precursor to the generic system, very unimaginatively called TAGS. If I decide to work up another genre rpg I'd put it on the TAGS framework, especially since I'll (I hope) have all the kink and bugs worked out of it.

Of course, if anyone wants current playtest copies, let me know :D
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Maou Tsaou on May 01, 2012, 05:08:19 PM
Seems I've stirred the proverbial pot here.
Still trying to get to a half dozen or so posts so I'll throw in a couple of more cents into the pot.

What is 1 point of a given statistic like Strength or Damage?
No matter what system is being used there's going to be some kind of bellcurve that represents just how much better than Joe Average a given hero is I'd think.
Without this you've got the Spinal Tap problem of "but these go up to eleven".
Of course application of a stat like ST varies a lot between different systems, and different systems have different stats, but the basic concepts are universal like ST moves mass a. k. a.  encumbrance.
I use a figure of 1 pt ST = 5. 5 pounds moved 1 ft per second for a basic measure.
Joe Average has a ST of 10 (1/10th of 1 hp) and a realistic maximum for human strength is around 30 points.
Also, 5. 5 ft.  pounds is sufficient force to pierce skin or cause tissue or bone trauma.
It helps in translation.

Another thing I've always thought was kind of silly for RPG's was a tendency to use wargame mechanics for individual characters.
In TFT a stat is used called MA for movement and is assigned by race with humans starting with a MA 8, Elves a MA 10, and etc.
This fits with its gladiator arena conceptual roots, and the mechanics of the time, but two humans don't get to have a footrace by this metric, it's just who wins the initiative.
It's good to have a generalized measure of human MA for units of them moving around in formations but on the individual level of an RPG this cuts out the "RUN Forrest!" option for bugging out of a nasty area and similar responses.
As a matter of fact, with sports simulating many aspects of combat, it seems very odd that it's easier to hit an Orc (indigenous people) with a sword and kill it than it is to hit a baseball with a bat in the same system say, or block another Figure out of the way creating a hole in the defensive line.
Being genera specific to a gladiator arena sim the combat in TFT axiomatically assumed that players were trying to engage their Figures in combat ah la the classic dungeon crawl and weren't interested in creative ways of avoiding combat.
When all the exp pts and treasure are linked to combat then avoiding combat is a loosing strategy for the most part.

IMHO a good universal system allows players to progress in other areas besides combat.
I try to tie my stuff to existing reference and educational material as quickly and simply as possible and let that serve as my universal system as much as possible.
If for example I can explain the general properties of materials in game terms then I can use reference data to assign specific game stats to specific materials rather than trying to make lists of everything.
It doesn't solve everything like where mythril fits on the periodic chart, but it does point to the region of the chart it'd likely be at least.
The quicker and simpler I can tie a system to a 1001 textbook the better, and then I can leave it alone until some smartassed player starts mucking around in the subject adding wrinkles.
It's tough being a Game Organizational Director sometimes. . .  but for all its burdens apotheosis has its perks too.
 ;D
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Maou Tsaou on May 01, 2012, 05:11:17 PM
Oh yes. . .  I'd be happy to playtest if'n you'd like.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: ardem on May 02, 2012, 06:15:59 AM
To tell you the truth I prefer 'specific designed systems' rather then universal as they normally have more depth for that environment.

Rolemaster for fantasy.
Shadowrun for futuristic fantasy.

On a side note I only just got back into roleplaying, virtually that is. I have no time for get together with a family and needed an avenue to play.

I found a great virtual module called Fantasy Grounds and some nice people in the forums (forums are as pleasent and helpful as aurora that is rare to find ) and now play Rolemaster once every 3 weeks.

Erik you should look at making a ruleset (template) for your RPG's and talk to the FG guys in adding a forum and that for you. It might generate you some more sales for your designed RPG's. Also you could run virtual demo's of the game for interested parties, it would be a good way of getting more exposure.



Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: procyon on May 02, 2012, 04:37:40 PM
Quote from: Maou Tsaou
My "universal" RPG of choice is a highly tweaked version of TFT.

Rolemaster for fantasy.

There are two names I don't here much anymore.

I used to play Rolemaster maaany years back in HS and college.  I ran a rather long game based in Middle Earth (there was a lot of support for that setting back then).  We got together a couple times a week.  The kids and wife have seen the box, but they have never gotten around to asking to play it.  Right now they are still deep into their Aftermath and Warhammer FRP campaigns.


And for TFT, I had kind of figured that I was the last person alive out here playing that system on any sort of semi-regular basis.  I and my brothers / friends played it all the time at the local hobby store and at my house on weekends when I lived at home.  It fell on the back shelf after that until I had kids of my own and they started getting a little older.
Now the TFT games, first Melee and Wizard, then Adv Melee / Adv Wizard / ITL are the games all the kids start out on.  Currently the 8 y/o girl is the main player, with her 11 y/o brother occasionally joining in.  The game in its basic form is easy enough for 1st graders.  Just a few stats (STR,DEX,INT,MA) and only d6.  They just have to be able to read a little and add the dice up.  Really helps with math skills, especially adding numbers in their head.

Very cool.
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Steve Walmsley on May 02, 2012, 05:47:03 PM
Our Fantasy RPG of choice used to be Second Edition Runequest. I still have the boxed set I bought back in 1980ish :). Our group used to play 3-4 nights a week in the 1980s. In fact, we played that much we starting calling each other by our RQ names in real life :). The system tracks time and the players aged 20+ years in the game world (Glorantha) over several years of real world time. Several of them actually retired. One eventually bought a tavern, a second founded a temple in the ruins of Pavis and another created a Bison ranch. That character (Storm-Kahn "Slickrick" Chaos Bane) was from the Bison Tribe of the Plains of Prax and rode a Bison called "Chaos Scorn Voyager". His friend Floyd (an uncommon name in Prax) was killed and left his own Bison (Floyd's Flyer) to Slickrick. The players all created wills and kept them with their character sheets.

Slickrick bought 50 female Bison and used Floyd's Flyer and Chaos Scorn Voyager as Stud Bison. I actually had to work out rules for how many female Bison each male Bison would impregnate in a given period of time. That actually came in handy later when he married another player character (in the game) and they decided to have kids. There was a monthly chance for successful for conception based on dexterity and constitution. Much merriment ensused over for several game sessions due to a seemingly endless series of failure rolls :). Eventually we moved on to a new set of characters but the older charcaters became part of the background and new adventures involved the tavern, temple, ranch, etc.. I think one even ended up running the local Thieves Guild.

Another of the original characters lost a leg in an early battle. The healing skills of the party were limited so although they saved his life they couldn't save the leg. I offered a new character but he decided to stick with the one legged one. I created rules for fighting/parrying with his new metal leg and added some movement penalties. He eventually become a Wind Lord of Orlanth and retired to wander the Plains of Prax, popping up occasionally in the adventures of the second set of characters.

Hmm! Must now go and reread the RQ2 rulebook due to a sudden attack of nostalgia :)

Steve
Title: Re: RPG Systems
Post by: Paul M on May 09, 2012, 07:28:01 AM
The advantages of generic systems are things like:  time saving as players don't have to learn new system, cost savings as you buy the main rules only once, better defence against munchkin-induced gamer rage plus whatever else fits here

The disadvantages are things like:  no unique systems, possibly poor correspondence to the setting, a lot of prep work may be required by the GM, much cludging on the part of the GM may be required, and other things in this vein.

If a game setting is unique, interesting and vibrant game mechanics don't matter.  I played what I call Baroque-thulu with the Fading Suns rules plus home modifications.  I used the Powers and Perils rules with the price lists from Chivalry and Sorcery and Harn Manor for help in world building.  But Bushido is going to give you a better experience than will "Eastern Adventures."  Using Role Master and the Forgotten Realms source books is surely possible but that is a lot of work on the part of the GM.

Which is better is something each person has to decide based on the situation that exists for them.  For me personally support in world creation/adventure generation is far far more critical than anything else and I find this sort of support is more likely to be available with a specific system then with a universal system.  As much as I like the Role Master/Space Master Systems I would rather have a well supported specific system then something I have to put hours and hours into just universe creation.