Point defence

[Starkiller (OP)]

This is a point defense cruiser, without jump drive, that I put together. The only major difference between this one and it's jump capable variant, is
the addition of 4 10cm single laser turrets. The size 1 missile launchers and the lasers both have 5 second ROF. Is this a good point defense ship?

Code: [Select]

Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser    7000 tons     659 Crew     1732.84 BP      TCS 140  TH 207.2  EM 420
4228 km/s     Armour 2-32     Shields 14-240     Sensors 22/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 392%    IFR: 5.4%    Maintenance Capacity 155 MSP    Max Repair 190 MSP
Magazine 342    

Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (8)    Power 74    Efficiency 0.57    Signature 25.9    Armour 0    Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 90.2 billion km   (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  84 Litres per day

Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 3-5     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 120,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1)     Total Power Output 55.5    Armour 1    Exp 4%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC56-R500 (50%) (1)     Range 840.0m km    Resolution 500
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (342)  Speed: 32,000 km/s   End: 15.6m    Range: 30m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 245 / 147 / 73

Active Search Sensor S56-R500 (50%) (1)     GPS 28000     Range 280.0m km    Resolution 500
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

Eric

[Kurt]

This is a point defense cruiser, without jump drive, that I put together. The only major difference between this one and it's jump capable variant, is
the addition of 4 10cm single laser turrets. The size 1 missile launchers and the lasers both have 5 second ROF. Is this a good point defense ship?

Code: [Select]

Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser    7000 tons     659 Crew     1732.84 BP      TCS 140  TH 207.2  EM 420
4228 km/s     Armour 2-32     Shields 14-240     Sensors 22/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 392%    IFR: 5.4%    Maintenance Capacity 155 MSP    Max Repair 190 MSP
Magazine 342    

Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (8)    Power 74    Efficiency 0.57    Signature 25.9    Armour 0    Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 90.2 billion km   (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  84 Litres per day

Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 3-5     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 120,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.925 AR-1 (1)     Total Power Output 55.5    Armour 1    Exp 4%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC56-R500 (50%) (1)     Range 840.0m km    Resolution 500
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (342)  Speed: 32,000 km/s   End: 15.6m    Range: 30m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 245 / 147 / 73

Active Search Sensor S56-R500 (50%) (1)     GPS 28000     Range 280.0m km    Resolution 500
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

Eric

I've got a couple of minor quibbles, and a major problem.  First, unless I missed something, I think that the generator you've put in there is way too big.  After all, you just have to power the laser turrets.  Secondly, your turrets have a rotation speed of 10,000, but your firecons have a tracking speed of 12,500.  That isn't a big one, but if possible I like to get the maximum tracking benefit possible.  

Those were minor quibbles, but you've missed something that will be a problem.  Your active sensor has a whopping 280 mkm range, but not against missiles.  To detect and target missiles you'll need an active sensor optimized to detect missiles, otherwise you won't see them until they get too close.  If this ship can rely on other ships with better anti-missile sensors, this might not be a big deal, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Brian Neumann]

To go along with what Eric said about the radar, you also have a fire control system that is only good for targeting big ships.  Roughly put the range of the fire control for missiles, or the active search radar is reduced by the square of the difference between the smaller size target, and the radar resolution.  This means that your fire control can not target a missile untill it is right on top of you (I think 37,500km).  You want your missile fire control to have a resolution of 1, that being the size that missiles are.  Otherwise you are giving up a lot of the range available.  Please also note that this is just a rough formula, I don't have the actual formula handy, but I do remember the rapid drop off on resolution.

Brian

[Starkiller (OP)]

Sounds reasonable. The main thing was that I did not know what those settings were all for. So low res means better missle detection, and high res
for the big ships. Erik mentioned optimizing for missles, was that also refering to lowering the resolution, or was he refering to something else? Very
complicated, but fun as I try to figure this out.

Eric

[Starkiller (OP)]

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Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser    6850 tons     664 Crew     1880.04 BP      TCS 137  TH 207.2  EM 420
4321 km/s     Armour 2-32     Shields 14-240     Sensors 22/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 375%    IFR: 5.2%    Maintenance Capacity 172 MSP    Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342    

Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (8)    Power 74    Efficiency 0.57    Signature 25.9    Armour 0    Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 92.2 billion km   (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  84 Litres per day

Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 120,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 3-5     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 120,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.95 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 28.5    Armour 0    Exp 4%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (342)  Speed: 32,000 km/s   End: 15.6m    Range: 30m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 245 / 147 / 73

Active Search Sensor S140-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 140     Range 1.4m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

How's this? I matched the tracking speed and turret speed, put a reactor of a more appropriate size, and reduced the resolution on both missle tracking
and active scanners. Don't know what Erik meant about optimizing for missles though. Let me know if I need to change anything else to improve it.

Eric

[Brian Neumann]

How's this? I matched the tracking speed and turret speed, put a reactor of a more appropriate size, and reduced the resolution on both missle tracking
and active scanners. Don't know what Erik meant about optimizing for missles though. Let me know if I need to change anything else to improve it.

Your missiles have way more endurance than they can use.  If you are using the 3.2 or later versions you can customize the size of all parts of the missile.  I often only put in .01 spaces of fuel as that still gives several million km range.  I put everything that I do not need for the 1 point warhead into engine and agility, going for the best to hit chance possible.  Unless you have a standard class of ship that has a longer range search and fire control radar, the extra fuel space on your missile is going to reduce the missiles effectivness.  Here is a typicall anti-missile from approximately your tech level.

Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 27
Speed: 32000 km/s    Endurance: 5 minutes   Range: 9.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.2083
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 864%   3k km/s 270%   5k km/s 172.8%   10k km/s 86.4%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   0.7153x Gallicite   Fuel x75

I used .03 missile space points for fuel but still had enough to double the range of your firecontrol.  

Another thing you will need to consider for larger ships is each fire controll only targets one incomming group of missiles.  If there are a lot of small groups from multiple sources you can easily find yourself out of guidance to engage them even if you have enough launchers to make it effective.  Here is an example.  I have 5 ships each with 3 launchers.  They fire a total of 15 missiles.  The defending ship has 25 launchers and 1 guidance.  It can only engage 1 3-missile salvo each 5 seconds.  Assuming you went for the maximum number of missiles in flight (5 per attacking missile)  you will have 75 missiles from 3 counter launches.  If the pd missiles are slower than the incomming missiles at all then they will have a real problem engaging more than a 3 of these small salvo's.  I often find that pd missiles are either slightly slower of faster than the typical attack missile at the same tech.  This would let 6 missiles out of the 15 though the missile defence.  In theory with a 20% or better chance of hitting that many pd missiles should have totally eliminated the incomming attack.  

Given the size of your ship, and how many launchers you have, I would probably go with 2 or 3 fire-controll radars to eliminate this problem.  If you haved the size of your fire-control you would still have a 2.1m km range, this is still 50% farther than the onboard search radar can see the incomming missiles.  That would still give you time for about 60 counter launches even if the attacking missiles were significantly faster than what you have for your pd missile.

Hope this helps you.
Brian

[Starkiller (OP)]

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Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser    7800 tons     753 Crew     2325.44 BP      TCS 156  TH 259  EM 420
4743 km/s     Armour 2-35     Shields 14-240     Sensors 22/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 486%    IFR: 6.8%    Maintenance Capacity 186 MSP    Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342    

Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10)    Power 74    Efficiency 0.57    Signature 25.9    Armour 0    Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 101.2 billion km   (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  84 Litres per day

Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 120,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 3-5     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 120,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.95 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 28.5    Armour 0    Exp 4%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (3)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89

Active Search Sensor S56-R8 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 8
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

Ok, Fourth attempt and I think I got the missle about where you think it most effective, hence Mark 4.
I added 2 more missle targeting, and the range of missle scanners, missles and active scanners are about the same. I increased the resolution on
the active scanner in order to keep the size small while maintaining the range. Inceasing the antenna made it too big. I hope a resolution 8 scanner
will still pick up missles. As usual, find any flaws and let me know. I'm learning as I go, and what I learn from you in coming up with an effective
escort unit, will help me in designing other naval units. I'll need them, I think. Once I meet the opposition, I'll likely find out all the shortcomings
my current ships have, the hard way. Heh.

[Beersatron]

Can you put another engineering space or three in? For me, I prefer to have enough maintenance capacity to fix the worst-case scenario. In your case it would take 210MSP to fix your 'biggest' piece of hardware if it failed. But, you only have 172MSP on the actual ship.

It wont be a problem if your based at a colony with sufficient maintenance facilities, but when your on extended deployment it could hamper your fleet.

Like the other folks said, you could probably save some space by reducing the size of the reactor. If I am reading it correctly, you only need 3 energy per each of the 4 lasers, so a generator out putting 12 should suffice (I am doing missiles only in my game, absolutely nothing else, as a test so am not 100% on that though).

Also, I don't think the ASS needs to be res1, just the MFC. If your ASS has a substantially better range that can detect the firing ships then you will have a better chance of running away  

[Starkiller (OP)]

I'm afraid the missle launchers take power too. I know the lasers do, but I watched the power requirement increase as I added missle
launchers. Are they not supposed to use power? If not, it must be a bug or something.

Eric

[Hawkeye]

Inline

Cornwallis Mod1 class Escort Cruiser    7800 tons     753 Crew     2325.44 BP      TCS 156  TH 259  EM 420
4743 km/s     Armour 2-35     Shields 14-240     Sensors 22/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 28
Annual Failure Rate: 486%    IFR: 6.8%    Maintenance Capacity 186 MSP    Max Repair 210 MSP
Magazine 342    

I notice speed is going up. If this design is intended (as the class suggests) to accompany other ships matching speed with those it will escort, might let you pull out an engine and put some more weapons/electronics in.

As Beersatron said, you´re very light on maintenance parts. If you look at the annual failure rate, you will see that you will have almost 5 failures per year, which is a big no-no for me, if the ship is intended for deep space duty


Magneto-plasma Drive E5.7 (10)    Power 74    Efficiency 0.57    Signature 25.9    Armour 0    Exp 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 101.2 billion km   (246 days at full power)
Gamma R240/12 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  84 Litres per day

Single 10cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 120,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 3-5     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fire Control S03 60-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 120,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-0.95 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 28.5    Armour 0    Exp 4%

I usually go for twin or tripple mounts for PD-turrets, but this is just a personal preference. But I strongly suggest to mount at least two firecons for you turrets. Otherwise, if all turrets can only target a single salvo, why mount multiple turrets (instead of a quad turret) anyway?
And no, missile launchers are not supposed to use power, never have seen the power requirement going up when adding MLs

Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC140-R1 (50%) (3)     Range 4.2m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk4 (342)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 2.2m    Range: 4.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 299 / 179 / 89

Active Search Sensor S56-R8 (50%) (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.5m km    Resolution 8
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

You might consider designing two different radar sets. A dedicated anti-missile-radar with resolution 1 and a dedicated anti-ship-radar with a resolution around "whatever I expect to encounter in terms of size". Personally, I go for resolutions of 40 to 60 and as soon as I develop FAC-engines, I put another dedicated anti-FAC-radar with resolution 20 on my list.

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This is one of my CEs (not that I claim it to be very good, as I am also still a newbe)

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Bayern IV class Escort Cruiser    8000 tons   720 Crew   1276.96 BP   TCS 160  TH 660  EM 480
4125 km/s   Armour 3-35   Shields 16-300   Sensors 18/18/0/0   Damage Control Rating 4   PPV 18
Annual Failure Rate: 128%    IFR: 1.8%    Maintenance Capacity 399 MSP    Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 213    

MTU Typ 60/0,9 Ionen Antrieb (11)   Power 60   Efficiency 0.90   Signature 60   Armour 0   Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 50.0 billion km   (140 days at full power)
Krupp Beta/1,5 Schutzschild (11)   Total Fuel Cost  149 Litres per day

Zeiss 100mm L60/R10 Laser-Drillingsturm 52 (1x3)   Range 60,000km    TS: 12000 km/s    Power 9-6    RM 2    ROF 10        3 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Zuse AR 72/12 Feuerleitsystem (1)   Max Range: 72,000 km  TS: 12000 km/s   86 72 58 44 31 17 3 0 0 0
Siemens Schneller Brüter Typ 4.5 (1)     Total Power Output 4.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Siemens Schneller Brüter Typ 2.25 (1)     Total Power Output 2.25    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Mauser Typ 1 Wespenflug ARR-Werfer (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Zuse RFL-1,9 Anti-Raketen-Feuerleitsystem (1)     Range 1.9m km    Resolution 1
Moskito ARR-1 (213)  Speed: 21,100 km/s  End: 1.6m   Range: 2m km  WH: 1   Size: 1   TH: 168 / 101 / 50

Telefunken Matterhorn II Suchradar (1)     GPS 8000     Range 80.0m km    Resolution 50
Telefunken Zugspitze II Raketen Suchradar (1)     GPS 128     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
Bosch Typ 18 Wärmesensor (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km
Bosch Typ 18 EM Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This one is still a little light on maintenance parts for my taste, but one has do make some hard desicions in warship design (you can´t have everything, you know)

[Andrew]

I'm afraid the missle launchers take power too. I know the lasers do, but I watched the power requirement increase as I added missle
launchers. Are they not supposed to use power? If not, it must be a bug or something.

Eric

Missile launchers don't use power. The only thing that does is Beam weapons. You have 4 lasers with Rating 5 capacitors sho they want 20 energy, however 10cm lasers only need 3 to recharge in 5 seconds so I woould probably only have installed Rating 3 capacitors or used a 12cm laser with a 5 second recharge as that is slightly more powerful is you have to shoot a ship.
My own ships use Gauss cannon for antimissile defense and they also require no power , so my missile armed ships have no reactor at all.
I prefer to have a more modular reactor anyway and generally design a size 1 reactor and then add multiple reactors if needed so for this ship I would have had 2 size1 reactors for 12 power

[Starkiller (OP)]

On the top rows of the ship info, isn't PPV the power the ship needs? I know PPV goes up when I add launchers and turrets, so I assumed that this
was the power requirement. Is it?

Eric

PS: Understand the maintenance thing, but I turned overhauls off for now, until I get a handle on the game. My ships kept breaking down, and that
was WITH extra maintenance parts. Should I sue the shipyard for using substandard parts?

[Erik L]

On the top rows of the ship info, isn't PPV the power the ship needs? I know PPV goes up when I add launchers and turrets, so I assumed that this
was the power requirement. Is it?

Eric

PS: Understand the maintenance thing, but I turned overhauls off for now, until I get a handle on the game. My ships kept breaking down, and that
was WITH extra maintenance parts. Should I sue the shipyard for using substandard parts?

PPV is the Protection Point Value. How much the civvies think it protects them.

Let me review the thread to see what I meant about missile optimization.

[Erik L]

I can't seem to find the post, but I'd go with resolution 0 scanners. That's what I do for anti-missile work. For offensive missiles, I got with around a 2000 ton resolution. I think that's 20?

Anyway, I vaguely recall your missiles far out-stripping the range of the radar. That's okay if you have something that will lock onto them at that range, otherwise you'll get notices about target out of range.

[Starkiller (OP)]

Heh, I thought it was power. I guess all my ships are over reactored. Refits, here we come. I changed the resolutions on the scanners to zero
resolution mode, but should the active scanner be the same range as the missles as I did, or should the range on those be longer.

Eric