Question regarding jump capable fighters

[Prince of Space (OP)]

I love the 6. 1 update, especially the more flexible engine design.  In fact, it inspired me to design a fighter-weight shuttle craft to cart my geology and xenoarchaeology teams around.  I put a 50% power size-1 ion engine and an efficiency 5 size-1 military jump drive on an otherwise empty fighter, then I just filled up the rest of the space with enough engineering spaces and crew quarters to give it a deployment time measured in decades.  By the time I face morale and maintenance failures it'll be time to replace the ship outright.

All was going well; my geo team just finished a tour of the Jovian moons and had just started in on Saturn when my survey ship discovered a Destroyed Outpost on Alpha Centauri A-I.  I cranked out another shuttle, loaded up my xenoarchaeologists and sent them to investigate, only to run into a problem.

When I attempt a standard transit I receive the error:

"ST Beagle 002 cannot carry out its standard transit order as at least one ship is larger than the ship with the highest jump rating.  No friendly or allied jump ships are available for escort"

This is weird, because the Beagle's jump engine is rated for 250 tons, and the ship itself only weighs 243 tons.  When I try a squadron transit I receive the error:

"ST Beagle 002 cannot carry out its squadron transit order as either at least one ship is larger than the ship with the highest jump rating. "

The error message itself seems to imply a missing second explanation, but the real problem is I can't get the silly thing to jump.

On a hunch I SM'ed in a Beagle Mk.  II with a size-1 box launcher and a size-0. 1 fire control.  I had to sacrifice a bit of endurance to fit both in, but the resulting shuttle was 250 tons on the nose.  This ship could standard transit and squadron transit just fine, and its marginally larger size indicates that size is not the problem at all, despite the error message.

I also created a larger, non-fighter version.  The 3500-ton shuttle uses a larger number of the same fighter engines and a larger but still self-only jump drive.  It traversed the jump point without a hitch, standard and squadron.

The problem seems to be that a fighter whose only non-commercial component is its engine will not jump to another system under its own power.  I'd appreciate it if someone would check this before I go throwing it into the main bug thread, just in case the problem is actually user error.  Below are my three ship designs:

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Beagle class Shuttle    243 tons     5 Crew     44.7 BP      TCS 4.85  TH 3  EM 0
1237 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 44.83 Years     MSP 29    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 0    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 500 months    Spare Berths 0   

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 70,000 Litres    Range 424.1 billion km   (3968 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


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Beagle Mk.II class Shuttle    250 tons     5 Crew     45.3 BP      TCS 5  TH 3  EM 0
1200 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0.15
Maint Life 39.7 Years     MSP 28    AFR 2%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 300 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 1   

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 70,000 Litres    Range 411.4 billion km   (3968 days at full power)

Size 1 Box Launcher (1)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours
Missile Fire Control FC1-R100 (1)     Range 1.5m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


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Beagle-Great Dane Mix class Shuttle    3,500 tons     63 Crew     480.8 BP      TCS 70  TH 60  EM 0
1714 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-20     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 0
Maint Life 9.22 Years     MSP 172    AFR 49%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 4    5YR 55    Max Repair 29 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 500 months    Spare Berths 0   

J3500(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 3500 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (20)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 419.8 billion km   (2834 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


[niflheimr]

there are two condition for squad jump or escorting : Jump Engine higher or equal than the biggest ship AND the jump ship itself is bigger than the rest. In your case it's 243 vs 250 - can't jump

[Erik L]

there are two condition for squad jump or escorting : Jump Engine higher or equal than the biggest ship AND the jump ship itself is bigger than the rest. In your case it's 243 vs 250 - can't jump

But the Beagle has a jump drive. That puts the capacity at 243 tons. It should be able to solo transit.

[metalax]

It definately sounds like a bug, as you should be able to self transit. Have you tried making a version with just the jump drive, engine and absolutely minimal fuel/engineering space that would be smaller still and seeing if that can jump?

[Prince of Space (OP)]

I didn't think that ship size was the problem, since the Mk. II uses the exact same jump drive as the original and it's 7 tons bigger.  To be thorough I tried it out.  I designed a stripped down Mk. III:

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Beagle Mk.III class Shuttle    130 tons     4 Crew     21.4 BP      TCS 2.6  TH 3  EM 0
2307 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-2     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 21.71 Years     MSP 10    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 1   

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 56.5 billion km   (283 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

It won't jump either.  Same error messages.  Unless someone else can point to an error in the design, I'll throw this into the bugs thread later today.

[Erik L]

My guess is that since it is classed as a fighter, that's why it cannot jump. Prior to 6.x, fighters had to be on a carrier to transit. It's possible there is code prohibiting a fighter from jumping.

When you put the bug in, reference this thread.

[Conscript Gary]

I could have sworn that in Steve's NATO campaign he would send fighters alone through jump points a few times for scouting purposes. That was using the jump drive onboard the carrier mind you, but that might be the trick as opposed to nonjumping fighters entirely.

[Prince of Space (OP)]

I learned something today. 

In my old 5.  6 game I had a 250ish ton jump scout that I would park in the boat bay of my scout frigate when I would send it on first-in missions.   The idea was that the jump scout would traverse the jump point first, and if it ran into something dangerous, like a powerful black hole, I wasn't putting the frigate at risk.   I could never get it to squadron transit, but it could standard transit just fine.   I thought it was a limitation of self-only jump drives, but upon digging out the old save I discovered that it wasn't jumping under its own power.   The frigate was apparently escorting it.   Move the mothership off the jump point and it fails just as the Beagle did. 

Back to the present, the Beagle is an evolution of this previous design, so I tried out an updated version of my old jump scout:

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Saluki class Jump Scout    248 tons     2 Crew     58.2 BP      TCS 4.95  TH 3  EM 0
1212 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 5.82 Years     MSP 15    AFR 4%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 1    5YR 11    Max Repair 36 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 8    

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 29.7 billion km   (283 days at full power)

Active Search Sensor MR28-R100 (1)     GPS 3600     Range 28.8m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

It won't jump either, squadron or standard.   This undermines my hypothesis that the non-commercial box launcher and MFC on the Beagle Mk.  II tripped some conditional statement in the jump drive code that the Beagle's engine alone was failing to trigger.   Either the Saluki's non-commercial 2.  25 HS active search sensor also suffers from the same fault as the Beagle's engine, or there is something unique about either the missile launcher or the fire control which enables the jump drive to work. 

Now I'm curious.   What about jump gauss fighters?

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Bulldog class Fighter    228 tons     8 Crew     29.7 BP      TCS 4.55  TH 3  EM 0
1318 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 1
Maint Life 29.33 Years     MSP 20    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 2    

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 10,000 Litres    Range 64.6 billion km   (566 days at full power)

Gauss Cannon R1-17 (1)    Range 10,000km     TS: 1318 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 1    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S00.5 8-1250 (FTR) (1)    Max Range: 16,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     37 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

No dice.   Fails to transit, squadron or standard. 

How about lasers?

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Rottweiler class Fighter    330 tons     11 Crew     31 BP      TCS 6.6  TH 3  EM 0
909 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 2
Maint Life 6.09 Years     MSP 6    AFR 8%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 4    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 4    

J500(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 500 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 22.3 billion km   (283 days at full power)

10cm C0.15 Infrared Laser (1)    Range 16,000km     TS: 1250 km/s     Power 3-0.15     RM 1    ROF 100        3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S00.5 8-1250 (FTR) (1)    Max Range: 16,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     37 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 0.6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Nope.   Neither squadron nor standard.   Note that this larger fighter required a new, larger jump drive. 

OK, how about a MFC without the box launcher?

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Mutt class Shuttle    243 tons     5 Crew     44.7 BP      TCS 4.85  TH 3  EM 0
1237 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 37.9 Years     MSP 29    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 300 months    Spare Berths 0    

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 70,000 Litres    Range 424.1 billion km   (3968 days at full power)

Missile Fire Control FC1-R100 (1)     Range 1.5m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Nothing.   No squadron transit, no standard transit. 

Box launcher but no MFC?

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Mutt Mk.II class Shuttle    245 tons     5 Crew     44.3 BP      TCS 4.9  TH 3  EM 0
1224 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0.15
Maint Life 39.75 Years     MSP 28    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 300 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 1    

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 70,000 Litres    Range 419.7 billion km   (3968 days at full power)

Size 1 Box Launcher (1)    Missile Size 1    Hangar Reload 7.5 minutes    MF Reload 1.2 hours

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Still nothing.   No squadron transit.   No standard transit.   Just to confirm my own sanity, I double checked that the Beagle Mk.  II can jump.   Yes, it still can, both standard and squadron.   This is especially weird because both the Mutt and the Mutt Mk.  II were designed by copying the Beagle Mk.  II and subtracting one part or the other. 

Gestalt ship design.   My mind is officially blown.   

EDIT: Charlie Beeler appears to have solved this mystery a mere five minutes after I posted it into the bugs thread.  The problem is that the fighter's weight must match the jump drive rating exactly.  Here is the latest model of the Beagle:

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Beagle Mk.IV class Shuttle    250 tons     5 Crew     46.2 BP      TCS 5  TH 3  EM 0
1200 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 30.83 Years     MSP 23    AFR 2%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 10 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 550 months    Spare Berths 1   

J250(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Military Ion Drive 6P/0.122F-TR50 (1)    Power 6    Fuel Use 12.25%    Signature 3    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 70,000 Litres    Range 411.4 billion km   (3968 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

It jumps just fine.  As he stated, this need for precision does remain a bug.

Way to go, Charlie.  Now I can send my intrepid crew of scientists and their lantern jawed captain out into the farthest reaches of known space to hunt for antediluvian ruins and green skinned alien women who dance the Dance of Seven Veils.

[metalax]

The thing is that it is still a bug as it shouldn't need for the fighter to be exactly the same size as the jump rating, it should also work for a fighter that is smaller than it's own jumpdrive rating.

[Steve Walmsley]

My guess is that since it is classed as a fighter, that's why it cannot jump. Prior to 6.x, fighters had to be on a carrier to transit. It's possible there is code prohibiting a fighter from jumping.

When you put the bug in, reference this thread.

No, that's not the reason. There is no restriction on fighters jumping. No clue what the problem is at the moment though

[Steve Walmsley]

The thing is that it is still a bug as it shouldn't need for the fighter to be exactly the same size as the jump rating, it should also work for a fighter that is smaller than it's own jumpdrive rating.

Yes, that does sound like a bug - a ship shouldn't need to be the exact same size as the jump drive rating. I'll check the code

EDIT: just created a 4000 ton ship with a 6000 ton jump drive and it jumped with no problem.

Steve

[metalax]

It seems to be happening only to fighters, and only when they are not at integer multiples of 50 tons. Perhaps it is something in the code that causes the fighters to use the exact class size for their size instead of rounding up to 50 ton intervals, interacting poorly with the code used to check for the ship being small enough to jump?

[Victuz]

Actually that reminds me of an issue I've had with 15000 ton troop carriers equipped with jump engines capable of jumping 18000 tonnes. Never figured out why they couldn't do it. I'll add it to the bug thread.

[Prince of Space (OP)]

It seems to be happening only to fighters, and only when they are not at integer multiples of 50 tons.  Perhaps it is something in the code that causes the fighters to use the exact class size for their size instead of rounding up to 50 ton intervals, interacting poorly with the code used to check for the ship being small enough to jump?

Good catch.  I chopped my design down to 150 tons and it worked fine, but 140 tons wouldn't jump at all.

Victuz, you're still having trouble with your troop transports in 6. 1? I just threw together a commercial ship, 16,600 tons with a 19,000 ton jump drive.  I didn't have any problem getting it to jump.

[Steve Walmsley]

It seems to be happening only to fighters, and only when they are not at integer multiples of 50 tons. Perhaps it is something in the code that causes the fighters to use the exact class size for their size instead of rounding up to 50 ton intervals, interacting poorly with the code used to check for the ship being small enough to jump?

Good catch. I was tracking the size of jump drive needed for the largest ship in the TG. However, that variable was a long and Hull Spaces is a fixed point variable. It was rounding to the nearest integer (so fighters of 120 tons would probably work but not fighters of 130 tons

So now when I check the largest jump drive, the jump drive required value is slightly higher than the most capable jump drive in the TG. This doesn't happen for ships as they are rounded to the closest HS. It will only affect fighter sizes that would round up to the next largest HS. Anyway - fixed for v6.20.

Steve