Author Topic: C# Aurora v0.x Questions  (Read 186234 times)

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Offline Scandinavian

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #480 on: December 12, 2019, 06:03:35 AM »
Should it, though?

Historically, fortifications have been basically unaffected by bombardment since around WWI.

One of the reasons the initial offensives on the Somme were such costly fiascoes for the British is that their general staff thought they could degrade the opposing fortifications with preliminary bombardments. And it turns out that you really can't very substantially degrade a well constructed trench system by blasting it with artillery. Similarly, WWII demonstrated that preparatory bombardments (as opposed to infantry-directed fire support) of urban areas is downright counterproductive - blasting a city actually improves its defensive properties (at the cost, obviously, of making it uninhabitable for the civilian population, which is why defenders do not tend to do it themselves). Air power and cruise missiles used without specific ground direction against built-up or fortified areas are basically just terror weapons (blasting moving vehicles in rural areas is a different story; undirected air power is great for that).
 

Offline Kristover

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #481 on: December 12, 2019, 08:36:24 AM »
Should it, though?

Historically, fortifications have been basically unaffected by bombardment since around WWI.

One of the reasons the initial offensives on the Somme were such costly fiascoes for the British is that their general staff thought they could degrade the opposing fortifications with preliminary bombardments. And it turns out that you really can't very substantially degrade a well constructed trench system by blasting it with artillery. Similarly, WWII demonstrated that preparatory bombardments (as opposed to infantry-directed fire support) of urban areas is downright counterproductive - blasting a city actually improves its defensive properties (at the cost, obviously, of making it uninhabitable for the civilian population, which is why defenders do not tend to do it themselves). Air power and cruise missiles used without specific ground direction against built-up or fortified areas are basically just terror weapons (blasting moving vehicles in rural areas is a different story; undirected air power is great for that).

Not inaccurate for World War I but we are talking science fiction with nukes, lasers, and mass drivers firing from space are a part of warfare and you would think the power of those weapons if directed could reduce fortifications.  In 2019 with precision munitions, we routinely take down fortified structures, bunkers, and other hardened sites in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan - albeit with some difficulty for certain types of targets.  One thing I do think you're on too is certain terrain types should have a harder modification for fortification reduction to simulate taking down mountain sites or urban rubble.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #482 on: December 12, 2019, 08:53:39 AM »
That would introduce a new parameter and thus subtlety, like in some WW2 wargames where some planes are really good at 'de-fortification'.

It can also be a parameter attached to a unit, think special ops, weak in regular combat but able to sabotage or blow bridges, bunkers, command posts.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #483 on: December 12, 2019, 09:42:11 AM »
That would introduce a new parameter and thus subtlety, like in some WW2 wargames where some planes are really good at 'de-fortification'.

It can also be a parameter attached to a unit, think special ops, weak in regular combat but able to sabotage or blow bridges, bunkers, command posts.

I think that the ground combat system should first actually give a benefit to being the defender before we add even more benefit to a strong attacker. Given the current combat model are directly linked to "Lanchester's law" there are no benefit to defend as there are no definition of attacker and defender.

In a multi-faction game for example you only need to be slighty stronger to beat an enemy on the same planet if a war breaks out due to this. The problem is that formations in the defensive line can attack units in the enemy defensive line while still retaining its fortification level, thus there are no real defender or attack in such scenarios when both sides start with being in full fortification level.

In a more realistic scenario you should need at least a double or triple strength advantage to invade and take an enemy stronghold.

There should be a clear attacker and defender in the game in my opinion where the "attacker" can still have a defensive line but could not benefit from more than a fraction of the fortification level as long as they are in attack "mode". As long as two hostile forces are both in defensive mode there should only be token skirmishes going on between the forces, or something like it.'

If you were to add destruction of fortification levels on top of the current system then having the bigger force are just going to be even more of a decisive factor.

If I have two or three factions on a world I really would like for there to be a possibility of stand offs being relatively normal as no one want to attack as they don't have a decisive advantage in strength. Due to Lanchester's laws the current model will make sure only a minor strength advantage will be quite decisive.

Lanchester's law basically means that if I have an advantage of say 20% 1200 over 1000 in combat power in reality I actually have 12*12 versus 10*10 or 144 to 100 or a 44% advantage. In reality it is really difficult to apply this in a complete war situation because you can't always use your superiority in strength, sometimes it can even be a problem. Defending also usually give many different benefits that the game does not model as fortifications can be used by both sides to full effect.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 09:53:41 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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Offline Scandinavian

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #484 on: December 12, 2019, 10:10:20 AM »
Not inaccurate for World War I but we are talking science fiction with nukes, lasers, and mass drivers firing from space are a part of warfare and you would think the power of those weapons if directed could reduce fortifications.
Emphasis mine.

The ability to destroy the target you are blasting is not the issue. The issue is that undirected bombardment will spend most of its time blasting things that do not matter very much. Making a combined arms bonus that lets fire support negate or attrition fortifications when used in support of an infantry assault would make sense, but this is a property of the joint combined arms formation, not a property of the artillery's ability to make stuff blow up downrange. (I'm abstracting away air power here, because for most actual use cases it is just expensive artillery.)
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #485 on: December 12, 2019, 12:32:13 PM »
(I'm abstracting away air power here, because for most actual use cases it is just expensive artillery.)

Expensive long ranged artillery that can act with considerable accuracy in areas normal gun and rocket artillery can't act and not with as much accuracy. Battle support aircraft aren't really of the 'remove this grid square' variety of operation. They're more for 'remove this specific target' jobs, be it buildings, bunkers, vehicles or infantry squads.


That said, fortifications should be considered for the job they're supposed to be doing, and that job is keeping troops safe from incoming fire while they deal with exposed enemy forces. There are a number of reasons why they were so successful in WW1, those included the low mobility of military assets, the general power of guns available to the troops relative to the strength of movable armour protection, the generally poor accuracy of the era's artillery (you may be able to turn a trench section into a charnel house with a direct hit, but how many shots do you need to fire to make that hit?) and the low capability of that artillery's shells when it comes to breaching fortifications.

This is decidedly different from modern day equipment, which are generally much more accurate, the much greater mobility of troops due to armoured personnel vehicles even across bad terrain and the fact that even the lightest bombs carried by aircraft on bombing missions carry more explosives than the heavy artillery did. This has resulted in fortifications being less useful as they don't last as long, either bombed to destruction with precision weapons of sufficient strength, or just outmaneuvered.

It's because of this and other factors that modern day warfare is much less focused on fortification based warfare, but that doesn't mean that such warfare isn't still conducted, especially in places that are well suited to such warfare, like heavily wooded and mountainous terrain.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #486 on: December 12, 2019, 12:40:14 PM »
In addition to Aurora having futuristic sci-fi weapons of unprecedented power and accuracy, it also has futuristic sci-fi defences of unprecedented strength and ability.

My vote is that Construction Equipment when in a formation that is in Attack mode, disables part of the defender fortification bonus as per some mathematical formula that I am too dumb to come up with.

This gives motivation to build both cheap construction equipment medium vehicles for fortifying your own troops and expensive construction equipment heavy vehicles for digging out your enemies.

Currently construction equipment (150) can be put on Vehicle (size 18), Heavy Vehicle (36), Super Heavy Vehicle (108) and Ultra Heavy Vehicle (216). That means we can build the following:

Mk I Bulldozer
Vehicle
Construction Equipment
Empty slot
Armour: 40
Size: 168

Mk II Armed Ram
Heavy Vehicle
Construction Equipment
Heavy Crew-served Anti-personnel
Armour: 60
Size: 206

Mk III Burninator
Super-heavy Vehicle
Construction Equipment
Heavy Crew-served Anti-personnel
Super-heavy Anti-vehicle
Armour: 70
Size: 358

Mk IV Tectonic Destroyer
Ultra-heavy Vehicle
Construction Equipment
Heavy Crew-served Anti-personnel
Super-heavy Anti-vehicle
Heavy Autocannon
Armour: 80
Size: 538

I didn't put in prices because we don't have them yet and the SHV and UHV armours are conjecture based on screenshots of lighter vehicle armour that Steve provided but you get the idea.

It's because of this and other factors that modern day warfare is much less focused on fortification based warfare, but that doesn't mean that such warfare isn't still conducted, especially in places that are well suited to such warfare, like heavily wooded and mountainous terrain.
We should always be very careful with drawing lessons from history and especially comparing different time periods, because there are many factors involved.

Everybody knows that artillery bombardment in WW1 was largely useless when it came to fortified troops. Not many people know that it was the same in WW2 despite great improvements in both accuracy and destructive power of artillery. Air power was almost as bad. Smart munitions and better battlefield intelligence have improved things a lot more, but so have there been advances on the defending side. In Kosovo, despite overwhelming technological and numerical superiority, NATO was utterly incapable of destroying fortified and camouflaged Serbian units. In 1991, the Allied Coalition had to dig up the fortified Iraqi troops the hard way and the massive "turkey shoot" happened only when the Iraqis were routed and sitting ducks out in the open in massive traffic jams. Israel is very good at popping Syrian radar stations but has not been able to root out the primitive rocket launchers that Hamas and Hezbollah use despite having no issues when it comes to bombing civilians.

We shouldn't make sweeping generalisations based on what has been going on in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last two decades because they are not illustrative of actual modern combat
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #487 on: December 12, 2019, 01:49:33 PM »
The reason WW2 didn't become the stalemate of WW1 isn't improvements in artillery or because of airpower. It's because of improvements in movable armour; tanks and half tracks offered much better capabilities for pressing the attack and exploiting a breach in the defenses while at the same time not needing more than an effective suppression barrage of the defenders to get through the minefields and barbed wire to get close enough to attack.

Kosovo is largely the result of not being able to find targets. Properly identified targets could be engaged to generally good effect. FFD units are important in Aurora for exactly that reason.

Likewise with the Iraqi in 1991, proper target identification to get the right munition where it'll hurt rather than blowing up the general area is important.

The problem with Hamas and Hezbollah are the same as with dealing with any guerilla movement; if you can't press the counter attack to inflict casualties or otherwise deal with the attackers you aren't going to get anywhere. One effective if morally bankrupt manner to deal with the attacks by these groups is to level the areas they attack from so they're a featureless wasteland that they can't hide in. Then just gun down anybody that seems to be carrying a rocket or the means to launch them.


Generally in warfare, you first have to find the enemy before you can engage him instead of wasting effort.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #488 on: December 12, 2019, 02:30:32 PM »
Quote
The reason WW2 didn't become the stalemate of WW1 isn't improvements in artillery or because of airpower.
We're not debating that. And just like WW1 had fluid phases, WW2 had stalemate phases, they are just poorly known in popular culture. My point was that there were improvements in both offensive and defensive capabilities. Just like there have been to this day, and there will be in the future, including the science fiction future of Aurora. Hence, it would be misleading to assume, like
Kristover did, that futuristic weapons would be so effective that they should be able to reduce fortifications in short order. And all of your examples do is emphasise the importance of FFD, which already exists in Aurora C# and we can't really judge whether it will be suitably effective until we get to play it.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 01:39:04 PM by Garfunkel »
 

Offline Rabid_Cog

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #489 on: December 13, 2019, 01:04:51 AM »
It makes logical sense for fortification level to degrade due to intense fighting though. One infantryman manages to toss a satchel charge through a gunport, suddenly the pillbox is gone and your fortification is strictly less than it was before. And you can't really rebuild it in the middle of combat, so its gone for good.

Of course the more guys with satchel charges you have, the greater the chance of this happening, so your army composition logically has an impact as well. I think the correct way to do this is that every attack reduces a small amount of fortification. Less for backline (artillary or orbital bombardment) and more for front line troops.

Even if we assume everyone was armed with pistols and were completely incapable of harming a concrete structure, attackers can still drive defenders out of their hardened structures, thereby capturing an opponent's fortifications, thereby reducing the enemy's level of fortification without really gaining any in response since those buildings point the wrong way.
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #490 on: December 13, 2019, 10:52:58 AM »
It really bears mentioning that artillery in world war 1 could reduce fortifications just fine and generally speaking infantry had to abandon their trenches and then try to come back and defend whatever was left after the bombardment.  Trenches were effective however that was mainly against lighter bombardment and infantry attack.  They tended to reduce infantry assaults to total futility unless there was a preparatory bombardment, and usually the poor coupling between enemy infantry and the enemy guns meant that you had a chance to come back and rebuild your defenses to some extent prior to the enemy attack arriving.

As the war went on better coupling between guns and ground forces was a really significant factor in making breakthroughs, in addition to tanks (which were not even involved in many of the offensives that ultimately ended the war).

As has been pointed out already though, directed artillery fire was absolutely necessary (at least in that era) or else it was pretty ineffective.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #491 on: December 13, 2019, 02:03:51 PM »
I'm sorry guys but you are repeating a bunch of myths and mistakes about WW1 and modern warfare vis-a-vis fortifications now.

Quote
It really bears mentioning that artillery in world war 1 could reduce fortifications just fine
No, it could not. It could only destroy old forts, the ones built in the 18th and 19th centuries, but more modern forfications that used domes were almost invulnerable. Shells were generally very underpowered and fuses were unreliable. Gunnery firing arcs were parabolic (not sure that's the right word) and meant that impact angles were low, not high. And of course, calibres were generally relatively small as well. Shells would only graze domed fortifications and bounce off, directing the explosive power outwards.

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generally speaking infantry had to abandon their trenches and then try to come back and defend whatever was left after the bombardment
Misleading and only partially true. Infantry would generally take shelter in pillboxes and bunkers during bombardmend, to reduce casualties even further, but the trenches - once they were chest-deep - were good enough to cut down casualties by themselves massively because the attacker basically needed a direct hit on a manned section of the trench to cause any casualties. Even in WW2, when timed fuzes became common place, airbursts weren't reliably hitting inside trenches. Once the bombardment was over, the defending infantry would swarm out of their shelters to man the firing pits, bringing machine guns and light mortars with them, and the trench lines were usually intact. Because again, you needed a direct hit to get it to collapse, and even then the infantry could use the resulting crater as cover.

Later in the war, the Germans started using the Tripwire-method, where the first trench would always be lightly manned and reserves would be brought up to actually defend the second and third trench lines, which I think is the source for the confusion about how it worked.

Quote
It makes logical sense for fortification level to degrade due to intense fighting though. One infantryman manages to toss a satchel charge through a gunport, suddenly the pillbox is gone and your fortification is strictly less than it was before. And you can't really rebuild it in the middle of combat, so its gone for good.
Not really. The satchel charge is not going to destroy the pillbox. Sure, the gun is wrecked but defender can easily bring up a replacement gun. Maybe not for some heavy coastal gun, but anything smaller is replaceable. Field fortifications were rebuilt during combat all the time. In both WW1 and WW2 we have thousands and thousands of examples of attacker gaining control of part of the fortifications, only for the defender to counter-attack and then resume defending the original line. Fieldworks can be repaired/rebuilt overnight with only shovels, crowbars and pickaxes.

Quote
attackers can still drive defenders out of their hardened structures, thereby capturing an opponent's fortifications, thereby reducing the enemy's level of fortification
Not completely true. Unless the attacker manages an actual breakthrough, instead of the far more common break-in, the defender will have a good chance of regaining the position through counter-attacks. The attacker can be subjected to enfilading fusillade from multiple directions while the defender brings in reserves and then throws the attacker out. Every

Which is why I'm advocating that you need special troops to combat fortification levels in Aurora. Because they are a mixture of terrain and construction, basically everything is abstracted into them, from camouflage to natural formations to field works to reinforced concrete (neutronium-duranium?) fortifications, the game shouldn't allow the attacker to wipe it all out "just because".
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #492 on: December 13, 2019, 11:00:03 PM »

Which is why I'm advocating that you need special troops to combat fortification levels in Aurora. Because they are a mixture of terrain and construction, basically everything is abstracted into them, from camouflage to natural formations to field works to reinforced concrete (neutronium-duranium?) fortifications, the game shouldn't allow the attacker to wipe it all out "just because".

Okay, but you should be able to wipe some of it out "just because" -- just because some of it is camouflage and natural formations and piles of dirt, rocks, & vegetation moved from over there to over here to hide a 'tank' in a hull-down position.

Rule one of entropy is "it's easier to destroy something than to build it."  To me, that means combat should degrade fortification levels faster than troops (even construction troops) can (re)build them.  That's also the way every wargame I've ever played has handled it -- generally "plus 1 fortification level per turn; minus 1 fortification level per attack."

I'm fine with there being some minimum level of fortification that bombardment, or direct attack (or differing levels for each) does not further degrade -- or that units instantly rebuild to each combat cycle; whatever mechanics we want -- to represent the 'urban rubble makes great defensive terrain' maxim.

But if there isn't a way to reduce an enemy unit's fortifications, we're never going to get them out of Front Line Defense.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #493 on: December 13, 2019, 11:44:27 PM »
We don't need to reduce Fortification to zero because shots can still hit and deal damage through them, they are not making the defender immune. The absolute worst-case scenario is that 1 out of 144 shots hits and that requires jungle mountain planet and sufficient construction troops for the defender to reach maximum fortification level.
 

Offline sloanjh (OP)

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Questions
« Reply #494 on: December 14, 2019, 10:29:02 AM »
Allow me to go meta:

Having paid almost zero attention to this thread, based on the last two posts it sounds like this discussion is a "two right answers" issue: In some conflicts (WW1 & possibly/probably US island hopping vs Japanese in WWII) static trench warfare and grinding attrition was flavor.  In others (WWII ground in general, Iraq I & II) it was maneuver warfare (flavored by targeted air support attriting defenders, sometimes severely).  Actually there's a third: insurgency suppression.

So to me it seems like this is a gameplay decision by Steve: which era/mode is more fun/interesting for Aurora.  Once he's made that decision, he can tune the mechanics to support it.  (Note: this is very similar to Steve's response in a recent "please get rid of the 5 light-second limit for beam weapons" thread: he said (paraphrasing): "The 5 light-second limit is NOT fact/realism-based; it's technobabble to support my belief that increasing the range of beam weapons would lead to a less interesting game".)

Given Steve's vision when he first started Aurora that controlled worlds would be bastions that would be difficult to take, plus his like of choices, I suspect that he's going to want something similar to island hopping and/or siege warfare (requiring overwhelming force on the part of the attacker, grinding combat, and possibly starving defending troops logistically) rather than maneuver warfare.  On the other hand, his ground combat model does have the possibility of breakthroughs, so I could be completely wrong.  I suspect the resolution of this is, per Garfunkel's suggestion, that in order to break through heavy defenses you need specialized assault troops.

John

PS - It feels like there's been a lot of back-and-forth here; perhaps this conversation should be moved to a separate thread?
 
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