Author Topic: Early defence.  (Read 3644 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Early defence.
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2021, 03:41:45 PM »
I've never understood the desire to have the same deployment time as fuel days, except to ensure that deployment is more than fuel days.
I always worry about needing to camp a jump point for extended periods when I think about reducing deployment time, so I normally go with 12 months for warships and up to a few days to a month for fighters.

That said for a small ship with low tech, and the mission goal of shooting down missiles I think 4 months is fine.

 - I'll be honest, the idea of using my ships for impromptu Jump Point camping never occurred to me, as I so seldom guard my Jump Points at all. In VB6, I used PDCs with super long range missiles and a combination of DSTS and Picket Ships to defend large swaths of territory... Jump Points often included. In C#, I've switched over to a combination of STOs, fighter garrisons, and rapid response ships for the same purpose. With DSTSs and "Relay" Stations to go with it.

 - My problem with non-matching Deployment / Fuel is that I have tonnage that is "wasted" on Deployment range that I can't "use". Fuel Tankers have this odd issue whereby they can get shot at and die. My warships already have that same issue, which stems from the whole problem of "going into a war zone". I've done plenty of thinking on this, but a thread titled "Re: Early defence." doesn't seem an appropriate place to put it. I'll post my thoughts elsewhere upon request, if anyone wants to read them. :) Long & Short of it though: I'm not against Tankers, relying on Tankers isn't "wrong" or "worse" or "bad", I just don't like using 'em for the most part.

You do realize though that deployment time take much less space on a ship and you can't extend deployment unless you have a base or recreation facility where you also need to stay for an extended period. Fuel you can at any time just replenish in a few hours.

it is way more common to need far more deployment than you need range... when doing battle manoeuvring you often even move ships very slowly to avoid detection by IR signature as another example.

Therefore from a logistical and strategic perspective most ships have a deployment requirement and a tactical range requirement and they often don't align all that well. They can... but quite often they don't.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Early defence.
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 07:22:29 AM »
Isnt it easier to use fighters&missles for Sol system protection early in game?
As far as i understand - main goal is to secure everything inside Saturn orbit, since Earth & Luna & Mars are first colonies and Jupiter & Saturn are primary fuel sources early in game.
So:
Fighters with deployment time ~3-6 days based on Earth / Luna / Mars.
~4 asteroid colonies in Asteroid Belt to cover all directions with DSTs and 1 Cargo + 1 Refueling + 1 Ordinance transfer stations with some fuel and ordinance supply for refueling and 2nd, 3rd, 4th strike capability - fighters return to those colonies for refueling and ordinance pickup after mission.
After some time same scheme repeats and extends using Jupiter and Saturn Moons.
In the end:
Earth / Mars / Venus / Ganymede / Callisto / Titan / Ceres with fighter bases + resupply colonies in Asteroid Belt + resupply colonies on Jupiter-Saturn orbit.

Yes... I agree that for defensive purposes you can be way more efficient.

My Patrol Ships/Crafts usually also are way smaller and only carry a single weapons system. Early on that is usually a 12cm Rail-gun for some extra range. These are NOT combat ships... they are there to patrol and mostly intercept any non military enemy assets that stumble into the system or any adjacent system they are stationed at. Their main role is scouting and patrolling and they rarely are above 3000t usually closer to 2000t depending on the system I want to have on them. A patrol ship is as I said not built for engaging enemy military ships unless they are scouts or something.

Other system defence assets are better in the form of fighters or FAC in some form using the bases themselves as a carrier with heavy PD and Beam defences that are way more efficient than what any ship can bring.

As the OP said though... their missile technology is not good enough to use missiles so the ship they got is pretty much it for them in terms of ship design. I would guess that investigating a bit more into missile design or better beam weapons should be a priority if there is any threat to Earth or Sol system.

I think that we as players often over engineer our design because they seem cool instead of what we actually need, nothing wrong in that in general... just a reflection on what I often see.
 

Offline d.rodin

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Re: Early defence.
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 10:38:21 AM »
Isnt it easier to use fighters&missles for Sol system protection early in game?
As far as i understand - main goal is to secure everything inside Saturn orbit, since Earth & Luna & Mars are first colonies and Jupiter & Saturn are primary fuel sources early in game.
So:
Fighters with deployment time ~3-6 days based on Earth / Luna / Mars.
~4 asteroid colonies in Asteroid Belt to cover all directions with DSTs and 1 Cargo + 1 Refueling + 1 Ordinance transfer stations with some fuel and ordinance supply for refueling and 2nd, 3rd, 4th strike capability - fighters return to those colonies for refueling and ordinance pickup after mission.
After some time same scheme repeats and extends using Jupiter and Saturn Moons.
In the end:
Earth / Mars / Venus / Ganymede / Callisto / Titan / Ceres with fighter bases + resupply colonies in Asteroid Belt + resupply colonies on Jupiter-Saturn orbit.

Yes... I agree that for defensive purposes you can be way more efficient.

My Patrol Ships/Crafts usually also are way smaller and only carry a single weapons system. Early on that is usually a 12cm Rail-gun for some extra range. These are NOT combat ships... they are there to patrol and mostly intercept any non military enemy assets that stumble into the system or any adjacent system they are stationed at. Their main role is scouting and patrolling and they rarely are above 3000t usually closer to 2000t depending on the system I want to have on them. A patrol ship is as I said not built for engaging enemy military ships unless they are scouts or something.

Other system defence assets are better in the form of fighters or FAC in some form using the bases themselves as a carrier with heavy PD and Beam defences that are way more efficient than what any ship can bring.

As the OP said though... their missile technology is not good enough to use missiles so the ship they got is pretty much it for them in terms of ship design. I would guess that investigating a bit more into missile design or better beam weapons should be a priority if there is any threat to Earth or Sol system.

I think that we as players often over engineer our design because they seem cool instead of what we actually need, nothing wrong in that in general... just a reflection on what I often see.

I waited for new engines before trying to do something like simple patrol ships.
and since one of the goal is : "patrol and mostly intercept any non military enemy assets" - added Boarding party, i think it is essential for para-military / police force.

Quote
Gals G9 class Patrol Ship      2 494 tons       88 Crew       2 891.9 BP       TCS 50    TH 38    EM 0
25062 km/s      Armour 5-16       Shields 0-0       HTK 21      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 3      PPV 18
Maint Life 6.25 Years     MSP 2 174    AFR 17%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 96    5YR 1 433    Max Repair 2187.5 MSP
Troop Capacity 250 tons     Boarding Capable   
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Morale Check Required   

Gas Core AM Drive 200% EP1250.00 (1)    Power 1250    Fuel Use 50.60%    Signature 37.50    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 250 000 Litres    Range 35.7 billion km (16 days at full power)

Gauss Cannon R600-100 (3x8)    Range 60 000km     TS: 25 062 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 60 000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R125-TS30000 (1)     Max Range: 125 000 km   TS: 30 000 km/s     92 84 76 68 60 52 44 36 28 20

Active Search Sensor AS12-R1 (5%) (1)     GPS 10     Range 12.6m km    MCR 1.1m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor AS34-R20 (5%) (1)     GPS 200     Range 34.2m km    Resolution 20
Active Search Sensor AS58-R100 (5%) (1)     GPS 1000     Range 58.6m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Early defence.
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 12:32:43 PM »
You do realize though that deployment time take much less space on a ship and you can't extend deployment unless you have a base or recreation facility where you also need to stay for an extended period. Fuel you can at any time just replenish in a few hours.

it is way more common to need far more deployment than you need range... when doing battle manoeuvring you often even move ships very slowly to avoid detection by IR signature as another example.

Therefore from a logistical and strategic perspective most ships have a deployment requirement and a tactical range requirement and they often don't align all that well. They can... but quite often they don't.

 - "You do realize though that deployment time take much less space on a ship and you can't extend deployment unless you have a base or recreation facility where you also need to stay for an extended period. Fuel you can at any time just replenish in a few hours. Therefore from a logistical and strategic perspective most ships have a deployment requirement and a tactical range requirement and they often don't align all that well. They can... but quite often they don't."

 --- I didn't know for sure which one was the heavier, but I have been laboring under the assumption that it was Deployment, so it I guess it all works out. :) Yes, I am aware that Recreational / Colonies are the only way to replenish Deployment and yes, I'm aware the Re-Fueling is faster on the whole.

 - "it is way more common to need far more deployment than you need range... when doing battle manoeuvring you often even move ships very slowly to avoid detection by IR signature as another example."

 --- The way you phrase this presents it as a natural occurrence, at least to me. I disagree that this is the natural way of things, if that is what you mean by it. "Battle Maneuvering" for me is the act of getting into range to fire and possibly evading enemy fire by way of kiting or other range-based shenanigans. I refer to the act of going slow to avoid enemy Thermal detection as, "sneaking around" As for it being way more common to need more deployment than range, I categorically disagree. Rather I say it is ALWAYS wasteful to NOT have them equal to each other, one way or the other.

 --- Allow me to explain, and please bear with me as I'm quite bad at doing so. Dyscalculia is a bitch and half and then some. :P I'm going to ignore the Range as a function of distance because while relevant in practice it is irrelevant for the purposes of expressing this concept. Range in terms of distance is still governed by how long it takes to get there and is thus arbitrary with respect to Deployment Times and Burn Times, AKA "X Days at Full Power" The following examples are but two of the possibilities that I know of.

 Example A:
Code: [Select]
Let's say that Ship A has enough fuel for 6 Months worth of Burn Time and enough Deployment for 6 Months worth of operations.

Now let's say Ship B has enough fuel for 3 Months worth of Burn Time and enough Deployment for 6 Months worth of operations.

Finally, let's say Ship C is a Commercial Tanker for Ship B, due to it being Commercial it only needs 3 Months worth of Deployment Time and carries 3 Months worth of fuel for Ship B.
Example B:
Code: [Select]
Let's say Ship A and Ship B have the same amount of fuel and Deployment as before, but now we have no Ship C in the equation.

Ship B is designed to spend 1 Month at reduced power, enabling it to travel for 6 Months at that speed. It then can use it's remaining fuel for high-speed maneuvers.

So while Ship A can go the full 6 Months at full speed, Ship B cannot and does not, instead dividing it's consumption between a strategic "Cruise Speed" and a tactical "Combat Speed"
--- So in Example A, Ship A and Ship B both carry an amount of Fuel equal to their Deployment, but Ship B offloads some of the fuel to Ship C. In Example B on the other hand, Ship A and Ship B are still carrying an amount of Fuel equal to their Deployment, but Ship B allocates it in such a way that it carries less Fuel to achieve the same endurance at the cost of having less speed available to it overall. In either Example, an overage of either Fuel OR Deployment would result in wasted tonnage, with the exception of redundancy with regards to Battle Damage or time spent loitering on station. Both of these, however, are deliberate design choices rather than some natural or normal thing. Exceptions, rather than the rule, so to speak.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:38:09 PM by xenoscepter »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Early defence.
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 05:38:54 PM »
--- Allow me to explain, and please bear with me as I'm quite bad at doing so. Dyscalculia is a bitch and half and then some. :P I'm going to ignore the Range as a function of distance because while relevant in practice it is irrelevant for the purposes of expressing this concept. Range in terms of distance is still governed by how long it takes to get there and is thus arbitrary with respect to Deployment Times and Burn Times, AKA "X Days at Full Power" The following examples are but two of the possibilities that I know of.

 Example A:
Code: [Select]
Let's say that Ship A has enough fuel for 6 Months worth of Burn Time and enough Deployment for 6 Months worth of operations.

Now let's say Ship B has enough fuel for 3 Months worth of Burn Time and enough Deployment for 6 Months worth of operations.

Finally, let's say Ship C is a Commercial Tanker for Ship B, due to it being Commercial it only needs 3 Months worth of Deployment Time and carries 3 Months worth of fuel for Ship B.
Example B:
Code: [Select]
Let's say Ship A and Ship B have the same amount of fuel and Deployment as before, but now we have no Ship C in the equation.

Ship B is designed to spend 1 Month at reduced power, enabling it to travel for 6 Months at that speed. It then can use it's remaining fuel for high-speed maneuvers.

So while Ship A can go the full 6 Months at full speed, Ship B cannot and does not, instead dividing it's consumption between a strategic "Cruise Speed" and a tactical "Combat Speed"
--- So in Example A, Ship A and Ship B both carry an amount of Fuel equal to their Deployment, but Ship B offloads some of the fuel to Ship C. In Example B on the other hand, Ship A and Ship B are still carrying an amount of Fuel equal to their Deployment, but Ship B allocates it in such a way that it carries less Fuel to achieve the same endurance at the cost of having less speed available to it overall. In either Example, an overage of either Fuel OR Deployment would result in wasted tonnage, with the exception of redundancy with regards to Battle Damage or time spent loitering on station. Both of these, however, are deliberate design choices rather than some natural or normal thing. Exceptions, rather than the rule, so to speak.

I fully understand what you are tying to say here but let me explain why I think this is faulty logic, for the most part.

If you have a ship that carry fuel equal to deployment I think that is fine (in some cases)... if that is the role of the particular ship. It could be something like a fighter or FAC for example. Even here you sometimes want more deployment than you have range for fuel so you can extend their range further when needed. Se below why this can be smart...

First of all, fuel can take up an awful allot of space so if you have a ship with an intended deployment of say 12 months you might not have room for much else with that much fuel as well. If you offload fuel to a tanker you suddenly have a ship that require no maintenance and can run fuel runs non stop for as long as you keep the ship around. The same ship can probably keep more than one ship with fuel as warships need overhauls/upgrades at certain intervals. Your commercial ships don't require any maintenance facilities and are much cheaper to maintain which means you can keep a larger fleet for less cost.

If you also look at the practical side there are a few points to make... any fleet stationed inside your territory can utilise refuelling points to get on stations thus will not need tankers for travelling inside your space if you space out refuelling points close enough to each other.

You can station a fleet quite close to any hot spots while you are scouting for potential targets, thus they need much less fuel than they need deployment time.

It is in my experience common to have a fleet camp at a JP for a pretty long while, perhaps a few system away from any refuelling stations while you send scouts ahead a few systems over. You don't know if there will be a fight or not or when... but you want the fleet close by.

Scouting in general can take up a considerable amount of time, time allot of ships either are just sitting around doing nothing or sneaking around trying to find the enemy.

Quite often you don't need more than a fraction of the total range of a ships deployment and that is true no matter how you build your ship... in your case you waste both deployment and fuel for the range you need... others just waste some deployment space. If is far cheaper to waste deployment when you don't need it than it is fuel AND deployment space if you don't need it.

We can make some more practical examples...

I have a Destroyer (in an old campaign) with a deployment time of 9 months who will burn its entire fuel storage in 43 days for a total range of 16mkm. It's nine months of deployment takes up roughly 5.7% of the ship space and their fuel tanks about 6.5%.
If I made this ship have the same range as deployment (using the same space and change nothing else) it would become deployment time of 2 months, and a range of 21mkm.

This ship would no longer be able to fill its function properly...

If I instead changed it to keep 9 months of fuel I would have to increase the fuel tanks from 6.5% of the ship to roughly 40% of the ships space into fuel. Given that this particular ship already have about 35% dedicated to weapons and 15% to defences you would have to strip off most of the ships mission tonnage just to make the ship able to run constantly for nine month which obviously you are almost never going to need, if ever. At this point offloading nearly 34% of a ships weight to a commercial tanker seems like a smart move. Obviously you would need a more efficient and bigger engine at this point... so it would not be as bad as stated above.

The point here being that range is most often completely detached from deployment. The range a ship need from a design perspective is always going to be the distance it need to travel from any source of fuel and it's target, including battle manoeuvres.

The deployment a ship need is also depending on its role and how long you might expect the ship to be able to perform in the field away from a base where the crew might rest for a considerable amount of time.

You could argue that you might build ships with more efficient engines... but then you still need more space for engines while you still don't need more range for battle manoeuvring. So you still end up wasting space on the ship. Smaller engines might require twice the amount of fuel to run, but fuel consumption for warships should rarely be a concern from a strategic perspective. Having more guns pointing at the opponent should be a higher concern overall. There obviously is a break point and for me that is the minimal amount of battle manoeuvre range my ships need. Depending on role that can usually be from 10-30 billion km in range for a normal fleet vessel.

The most optimum rate if engine to fuel are generally 3/4 engine and 1/4 fuel tanks... just decide what range you want the ship to have and build the engine to fit into that ratio. You might not always be able to fit the optimum rate for different reasons, especially if you have ships with different needs and having to use the same engine.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 06:27:15 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Early defence.
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 06:29:09 PM »
Guys guys guys,

you're hijacking the dude's patrol craft thread with off-topic chat. There's a whole bunch of threads for theorycrafting about ships or to explain your personal building ethos or to discuss early-tech home world/system defence techniques.

Here is the revision. Many of you are right it`s nearly a moot point building it but I still want some protection. I`ll do the STO and jump point defence as well.
Looks much better. I'd still recommend dropping the armour to 1. It takes up a lot of tonnage that could be used for more weapons and sensors, or to make the craft cheaper and faster to build.

Did any of you actually discover low level aliens that are for example at Nuclear Thermal capacity.
It is possible, just bit rare. I'll spoiler the explanation in case you don't want to know the details:


NPR generation takes your tech level in consideration but with a large random element. So, the starting point is tech parity with you and then RNG fudges it up or down. With a conventional start, an NPR might start at NP or NT engine level, though Ion is more common. However, this does NOT apply to spoiler races and you're most likely to encounter one of them before any NPRs meaning that your first fight is almost guaranteed to be against a technologically (significantly) superior enemy. This also does not apply to the game creation NPR if you started with one as those get a regular TN start but with population roughly equal to yours. Starting conventional is a big handicap if you also start with NPRs and have spoiler races toggled on!
 
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