Author Topic: How do you marry an upper stage missile to it's booster stage?  (Read 1323 times)

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Offline Panpiper (OP)

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I have designed an upper stage terminal phase missile 10 MSP in size. I have designed a first-stage booster missile also 10 MSP in size. I want to define these two as a single, two-stage pair. However if I select the two in the missile design window, the resulting missile displays in the bottom the identical stats to just the top terminal stage. If I save it, I appear to simply have a 10 MSP carbon copy of the original terminal phase missile.

What am I doing wrong? Are upper and lower stages merged on some other screen? Is there some esoteric, occult button somewhere I am incapable of seeing that I have to push to marry them up?
 

Offline captainwolfer

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Re: How do you marry an upper stage missile to it's booster stage?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2021, 12:28:27 PM »
I have designed an upper stage terminal phase missile 10 MSP in size. I have designed a first-stage booster missile also 10 MSP in size. I want to define these two as a single, two-stage pair. However if I select the two in the missile design window, the resulting missile displays in the bottom the identical stats to just the top terminal stage. If I save it, I appear to simply have a 10 MSP carbon copy of the original terminal phase missile.

What am I doing wrong? Are upper and lower stages merged on some other screen? Is there some esoteric, occult button somewhere I am incapable of seeing that I have to push to marry them up?
The second stage needs to be smaller than the first stage, as the first stage will be the combined size of both (IE if you have a size 10 first stage and a size 10 second stage then the combined missiles will be size 20)

Example of my 2 stage size 6 missile:
1st stage: Engine and fuel which added up to 2 MSP used. it had a range of about 50 million when the second stage was added
2nd Stage: Size 4 missile with warhead, engine fuel, etc. It had a range of 5 million
I designed and researched the second stage missile first.
Next, below the engine design part of the missile screen, you have a drop down menu labeled "Second Stage", where you can select missiles that you have already designed and researched. Select your second stage missile. Next, set the number of Second stage missiles to 1 or more, and set the separation range to around 1/3 to 1/2 of your 2nd stage range (So if your second stage has a range of 5 million, type in "2500" to get a separation range of 2,500,000. Now you just click create and research the missile, or if you have SM mode on you can click Instant to get the missile design without having to research it.

The reason I set separation range to 1/2 of what the 2nd stage's max range is, is because I have had situations where I fired 2 stage missiles at enemy ships coming towards me. The 2nd stage missiles were set to separate near their max range, and separated when they thought they would intercept the enemy ships if launched at that range (because the ships were coming towards me) However, the enemy ships stopped as a result of seeing my missiles, and as a result the 2nd stages didn't actually have enough range to reach the enemy ships. So, now I include a healthy extra margin so the 2nd stage missiles can hit even if the enemies turn around.

Also, size 10 is rather large. I would recommend using size 8 or size 6 missiles, because that way you need less ships to get enough missiles to overwhelm enemy point defense, if it exists.
 
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Offline Panpiper (OP)

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Re: How do you marry an upper stage missile to it's booster stage?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2021, 12:50:15 PM »
These are meant for use on a PDF, so size is less of an issue, other than the build costs. However I also want them to be able to hit an agile target, pack a serious punch (damage 25) and be able to reach far enough to engage before the enemy can launch. To do all that, I think I need the size. If I were using missiles on ships (I'm not this game), I would make them much the sizes you suggest.

Thank you very much for the help. The crucial point I was missing was to edit the stage number. I had left it at the default 0, somehow failing to recognize that flag for what it was.

I'm right now planning on launching these 100 at a time. Do you guestimate that is likely enough to saturate their defence and still have plenty left to do serious damage?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 01:00:02 PM by Panpiper »
 

Offline Panpiper (OP)

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Re: How do you marry an upper stage missile to it's booster stage?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 01:03:46 PM »
By the way, the final summary of stats on the two-stage missile is showing VASTLY lower hit probability than the terminal phase missile on its own. Is this a bug? Should it not be showing the hit probability of the terminal phase missile?

Also, I included a small active guidance package on the terminal phase missile. Was this a useful thing to do?
 

Offline captainwolfer

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Re: How do you marry an upper stage missile to it's booster stage?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2021, 01:12:19 PM »
These are meant for use on a PDF, so size is less of an issue, other than the build costs. However I also want them to be able to hit an agile target, pack a serious punch (damage 25) and be able to reach far enough to engage before the enemy can launch. To do all that, I think I need the size. If I were using missiles on ships (I'm not this game), I would make them much the sizes you suggest.

Thank you very much for help. The crucial point I was missing was to edit the stage number. I had left it at the default 0, somehow failing to recognise that flag for what it was.

I'm right now planning on launching these 100 at a time. Do you guestimate that is likely enough to saturate their defence and still have plenty left to do serious damage?
If they have a warhead of 25, then in most situations that will be enough. You will probably want to have 1 missile fire control for every 10-15 missile launchers, and to have each fire control target a different ship when firing. If you have ECM tech, you should definitely put ECM on the second stage of these missiles, they are more than large enough to fit it.

I also recommend designing two types of missiles: the missile you are currently planning, and a MIRV missile, aka a missile with the size 10 first stage and 4x size 2.5 missiles as the second stage. That way, if the enemies have enough firepower to deal with a volley of 100 missiles, you can launch effectively 400 missiles at them (Even if those 400 missiles only have a warhead of 4 or whatever).

To be fair, even 100 is more than most NPRs can deal with, I've only seen Spoiler races be able to shoot down more than 20 missiles at a time, and that was because they had a massive 283,000 ton mothership with 150 dual laser turrets. (If you ever encounter an enemy that spams FACs and their lasers deal acid damage, be very paranoid)


On the topic of final summary of stats: no, the lower hit probability is the hit probability of the first stage, not the second. It ignores the fact that its a two stage missile.

I would not bother with missile sensors. What sensors on missiles do is make it so that if the missile's original target dies, the missile will not self destruct and can use the sensor to find a new target. However, the problem is that it would require the target to die after the second stage separates, which is unlikely given how long it will take the size 20 launchers to reload. Also, missiles with sensors will all hit the same target, they won't spread out. Finally, missiles with active sensors won't keep moving after their target dies, they will stop dead in space and wait for a ship to enter their range, which means missiles with sensors are only useful if the enemy is chasing you.

Basically sensors on missiles are usually only useful for sensor buoys or as a way to remotely scout without putting any of your ships in danger.
 
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Offline serger

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Re: How do you marry an upper stage missile to it's booster stage?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2021, 12:13:05 AM »
Usually I use self-guidance (sensored) missiles to reduce overkill rating: when their salvo reach targets and begin to kill ships, there will be a moment, when some ship is killed, and some missiles of the same salvo still alive and targetted on killed ship, so these all will self-destruct, if they have no sensor. It's often quite difficult to predict how many of your missiles will be enough to kill some new enemy ship, so I usually design sensors, which will be able to detect proper target in 2*5sec*V, where V is an estimated max velocity of targets. Then I target my salvoes at the biggest ships and do not fuss with optimal target assignment micromanagement; if the biggest one (suddenly non-armoured carrier) occasionally blows after the first punch - the rest of the salvo will retarget at the escort.

Though it were in earlier versions of Aurora, I haven't tested missiles in 1.12.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 02:19:54 AM by serger »