Author Topic: Multiple engine types?  (Read 5217 times)

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Iranon

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Multiple engine types?
« on: June 24, 2016, 03:57:09 AM »
An interesting real-life trade-off that doesn't exist in Aurora is speed vs. fuel effiiciency during operations, we only get this at design time.
Some real life warships had a heterogenous propulsion plant: compact turbines for speed, efficient diesel engines or a cruising turbine with reduction gearing for efficiency at lower speeds. It could be interesting if we allowed this.

Option A: Only one engine type can power a ship (or tractor chain) at a time.
Instead of 4 engines of the same type, we could install 3 with the same total power and a crusing engine half as powerful as the original.
We double our fuel consumption at high speed, but reduce it by a factor of 5.7 at low speed (1/8 of maximum).
The drawback of this approach is that we'd need to take care not to introduce annoying micromanagement (e.g.: maintain distance to a ship that's faster than our cruising speed without wasting fuel)

Option B: Mix and match at will.
Here we'd probably go for something less extreme. 2 examples,

2 high-power engines at 1.2, 1 low-power engines at 0.6 compared to 3x 1.0.
20% speed and below - 28% fuel consumption
40% speed - 93% fuel consumption
60% speed - 114% of fuel consumption
80% speed - 125% of fuel consumption
Full speed - 132% of fuel consumption

1 high-power engine at 1.5, 2 low-power engines at 0.75 compared to 3x 1.0:
50% speed and below - 49% fuel consumption
60% speed - 87% fuel consumption
70% speed - 114% fuel consumption
80% speed - 134% fuel consumption
90% speed - 150% fuel consumption
Full speed - 162% fuel consumption

 

Offline bean

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2016, 09:55:35 AM »
An interesting real-life trade-off that doesn't exist in Aurora is speed vs. fuel effiiciency during operations, we only get this at design time.
I'd very much like to see some version of this.  It would be nice if ships didn't constantly cruise at their maximum speed.  This could be done by either allowing multiple engine types or by changing the relationship between speed and power from a linear one to one that more accurately reflects fluid dynamics.  (Speed^1.5 or speed^2 are good approximations). 


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Some real life warships had a heterogenous propulsion plant: compact turbines for speed, efficient diesel engines or a cruising turbine with reduction gearing for efficiency at lower speeds. It could be interesting if we allowed this.
Warning: Naval Nerdology follows
The technical term to describe this arrangement is CXOX or CXAX where the Xs are replaced by the propulsion systems in question.  CDOG is Combined Diesel or Gas [turbine] (Option A) while CGAG is Combined Gas and Gas (something like Option B).  Of course, you then get really weird plants like the Kirov's CNAS (Combined Nuclear and Steam). 
Nobody runs non-geared turbines, and hasn't for, oh, half a century or so.  Turbines are most efficient when running fast and highly-loaded.  This is why you use cruising turbines.  They're not generally that much more fuel-efficient than the main turbines at full load, IIRC, but they are better at low loads.  Modern US surface ships use a variant of CGAG, with two turbines on each shaft, one of which is unclutched at cruising speeds. 

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Option A: Only one engine type can power a ship (or tractor chain) at a time.
Instead of 4 engines of the same type, we could install 3 with the same total power and a crusing engine half as powerful as the original.
Micromanagement is a lot of the issue here.  Not just with following faster ships, but also with things like remembering to reset to cruising speed when you're done dashing about.  Or even just remembering what cruising speed is.

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Option B: Mix and match at will.
I'm in favor of this one.  It's less work for almost everyone.  There's more micromanagement if you want it (if not, then the current model should continue to work fine), and it might be slightly computationally intensive (instead of just looking at how fast you're going, it has to see where the knee in your fuel economy curve is) but it's definitely the better option.
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Offline iceball3

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2016, 03:01:58 PM »
You could probably do an option that simplifies this: limit max unique types of engines per ship to 2, and have a "Cruising mode" and a "High Speed mode" that's explicitly toggled and displayed. Cruising mode would only fire off the "cruising engines", set at ship design, which would be expected to be the low power high efficiency engines onboard, while "High Speed" would fire off all engines at once. The ship's "Max Speed", in either case, would be treated as if only the engines currently firing contributed to the total engine power of the ship. That way, you don't have fuel inefficiencies or engines firing when you don't want them to, at particular movement speed levels - you'd need to deliberately enable "high speed mode" to enable the full gamut of engines onboard.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2016, 05:36:27 PM »
You could probably do an option that simplifies this: limit max unique types of engines per ship to 2, and have a "Cruising mode" and a "High Speed mode" that's explicitly toggled and displayed. Cruising mode would only fire off the "cruising engines", set at ship design, which would be expected to be the low power high efficiency engines onboard, while "High Speed" would fire off all engines at once. The ship's "Max Speed", in either case, would be treated as if only the engines currently firing contributed to the total engine power of the ship. That way, you don't have fuel inefficiencies or engines firing when you don't want them to, at particular movement speed levels - you'd need to deliberately enable "high speed mode" to enable the full gamut of engines onboard.
Fair enough, but it's still not perfect.  Let's say I'm upgrading my fleet's cruising speed from 3000 km/s to 4000 km/s.  I'm almost done, but I still have a few ships of the former type in service, and I'd like the fleet to cruise at 4000, without firing off the high-speed engines on most of the ships.  How does this work?
The best option I can come up with is to have a box in each TG for 'cruise speed' with buttons to set it to the lowest and most common cruise speeds among ships in the fleet, along with a manual override of cruise speed, and a high-speed enable switch.  The computer automatically handles the allocation between engines, starting with the most fuel-efficient ones and requesting full power from them before lighting the others. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:39:57 PM by byron »
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Offline iceball3

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2016, 07:23:36 PM »
Fair enough, but it's still not perfect.  Let's say I'm upgrading my fleet's cruising speed from 3000 km/s to 4000 km/s.  I'm almost done, but I still have a few ships of the former type in service, and I'd like the fleet to cruise at 4000, without firing off the high-speed engines on most of the ships.  How does this work?
I guess one solution would be for the engines to automatically prioritize using engines with the lowest Fuel Use Per EPH first, so if a ship is moving at the cruising speed, it would use exclusively the cruise engines, even if it is in "high speed mode", but if it only moves slightly above cruising speed, then it'll have it's cruising engines at full power, and it's high speed engines firing only to make up the difference.
 

Iranon

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2016, 09:04:18 PM »
I see no real need for separate modes, as long as the game makes sure to use the efficient engines first. My examples for Option B assumed the game does that.
How fast fuel efficiency drops off with speed is a design matter, and I expect that we will often have to operate vessels in ways contrary to their design assumptions. That is a good thing.
I'd be very wary of unnecessary interface clutter.

Now that I think of it: even if we don't allow multiple engine types powered at once, we can eliminate micromanagement by assuming that we can alternate between engines within a tick - after all, there is no inertia. So there would be a smooth progression for fuel consumption for both approaches.

 

Offline bean

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 09:26:03 AM »
I guess one solution would be for the engines to automatically prioritize using engines with the lowest Fuel Use Per EPH first, so if a ship is moving at the cruising speed, it would use exclusively the cruise engines, even if it is in "high speed mode", but if it only moves slightly above cruising speed, then it'll have it's cruising engines at full power, and it's high speed engines firing only to make up the difference.
That's what I was assuming.  The problem is that you're going to be spending a lot of time at lower than maximum speed, and it would be very helpful to have some way to semi-automate that instead of having to remember what your cruising speed is and then manually input it every time.

Now that I think of it: even if we don't allow multiple engine types powered at once, we can eliminate micromanagement by assuming that we can alternate between engines within a tick - after all, there is no inertia. So there would be a smooth progression for fuel consumption for both approaches.
That doesn't eliminate micromanagement.  The micromanagement is that you have to control speed a lot more closely under this approach.  Particularly if we go with only allowing one engine to run at a time, we need to have a button which sets the ship to its cruising speed. 
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Iranon

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2016, 05:20:51 PM »
What should such a button do? "Pick the speed for the task group that every ship can achieve on their least powerful engines" ? Something more user-definable?
I'd care about having to do micromanagement to avoid wasting fuel for the same performance.
An interface addition just to let me toggle cruising speed adds too little for the clutter. A simple implementation may also do its job badly (our desired cruising speed may be more than we can achieve on just the cruising engines. Even if we settle on our desired cruising speed, there's still a trade-off between cruising and high-speed efficiency).

If we don't want to deal with fuel consumption curves, we could still fit a single engine type. After all, that's always going to be the most efficient setup at maximum speed.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 12:46:45 AM »
Using more than one engine will never be efficient due to the additional weight, wha I would prefer is if the currently existing option to change a task groups speed would also allow more efficient engine operation.
Obviously an engine will be at its best operating condition when running at it's designed speed, just like a real engine, but there should be some advantage of running slower.
At the moment halving a ships speed just makes it take twice as long which uses just as much fuel.
You shouldn't be able to throttle back an FAC's engines to suddenly make them as efficient as a freighter, but going slower should save fuel, the question is how much? Related yo this perhaps you could throttle above 100% but at severe risk of failure?
Let's consider the normal power curve, going from 100% to 300% increases fuel use by 15 times, would it be acceptable to allow any engine the ability to do this again, also increasing failure rate by the same amount?
What about the opposite, I don't recall the exact mechanic but I think you can go down to .2 power and get the a 20th fuel consumption. If this was enacted as well then it would be trivial to lower an engines power even further for stupidly efficient freighters, or military vessels with anemic engines of negligible failure rate.
I think a good compromise would be to allow any engine to throttle up or down towards the currently existing limits, .2 or x3, but with an efficiency curve that's altered. This way you wouldn't get more powerful engines since the current max power already push the limit of what's possible, or more efficient engines as the same applies, but you gain flexability with median powered engines.
The question is how should this be balanced? Say you're using an engine with 1.0 power multiplier and have researched a max power of x3.
Obviously an engine actually designed to operate at that power is more efficient, perhaps increasing fuel use and failure rate by an additional 50% per level, and for reduced speed the opposite by decreasing the extra efficiency by 50% per level.
After designing the ship you send it out to battle and come across an enemy armada, you're outgunned and outclassed. The captain orders the overdrive setting. Which will enable it to outrun the enemy.
What happens?
Let's imagine the ship was designed for decent range, maybe 60 billion kilometres, not particularly good for a scout but fine for a warship.
If normal engine consumption was used we find that after going to overdrive the ship now has 3 times the speed and 15 times consumption. Range has dropped to 12 billion kilometres, which is still ample to outrun an enemy, even through multiple systems. But it's unfair to allow any engine to do this since the engine isn't running at its designed power, it should be less efficient.
What if we increase fuel consumption by the proposed 50% per level? Power levels increase at a rate of 25% more per level up to 3 times so from 1.0 to 3.0 is 8 levels, that's 4 times additional fuel consumption. A total of 60 times what the standard engine uses, but only 4 times less efficient as the properly designed engine of that power.
That range of 12 billion drops to 3 billion.
What if the inverse was true?
I can't remember the vanilla efficiency gains for less power so I'll leave this untill later, but if you start with a 3.0 power engine and decide to throttle it back using the above mechanics the instead of getting a 1/15th fuel consumption for a third the speed instead you multiply the vanilla efficiency change by 1.5 per level as before. So 8 levels gives an increase of 4 times of the vanilla 1/15 efficiency of an engine running at 1.0.
A third the speed gives you 26% the fuel use. Actual fuel efficiency gain isn't much in this example, you'll use 86% as much fuel to get there 3 times longer. But reducing power even further would give better efficiency gains.
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Iranon

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 02:52:03 AM »
Well, specific fuel consumption is proportional to powermultiplier^2.5.
You could implement your suggestion by multiplying specific fuel consumption by (current power/total power)^x, where x <2.5.

If x=1.5, things become quite neat: to match a 1.0 engine at full power, a 1.5 power engine uses 1.5 times as much fuel, a 2.0 power engine twice as much and so on. that is down from 2.76 and 5.66 at their respective maximum power.
*

If you want to allow overload power, x would be < 2.5 and we'd probably want a chance of failure rate.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 03:23:05 AM »
Nice simplification. I think failure rate should be really high though so that it's a pretty risky combat maneuver.
The other important consideration is should NPRs be able to do this too? Of course you will say, it's cheating if you have another strategy to use against the AI which it can't counter.
Think of the possibilities, your hunter killer ships pounce apon those defenceless enemy freighters, only to find them pumping upto max power and evading your sleek new warship. Ok that's a problem, in some cases it should be possible, but certainly a .3 multiplier ship shouldn't be able to pump upto x3, an idea might to be make using this for power increase drops the ships commercial design flag, opening it up to failures, this would be very useful for Q-ships indeed. Maybe there should be a limit, maximum increase or decrease should be limited to how much multiplier you have researched. If you have 2x researched you can get a power 1 to power 2, or a power .5 to power 1 but not anymore than that.
The other consideration is that NPRs don't use fuel or maintenence so in theory their ships can just blast along at full overdrive with no worries, while your own ships run out of fuel and break.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline TCD

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 08:59:13 AM »
Nice simplification. I think failure rate should be really high though so that it's a pretty risky combat maneuver.
The other important consideration is should NPRs be able to do this too? Of course you will say, it's cheating if you have another strategy to use against the AI which it can't counter.
Think of the possibilities, your hunter killer ships pounce apon those defenceless enemy freighters, only to find them pumping upto max power and evading your sleek new warship. Ok that's a problem, in some cases it should be possible, but certainly a .3 multiplier ship shouldn't be able to pump upto x3, an idea might to be make using this for power increase drops the ships commercial design flag, opening it up to failures, this would be very useful for Q-ships indeed. Maybe there should be a limit, maximum increase or decrease should be limited to how much multiplier you have researched. If you have 2x researched you can get a power 1 to power 2, or a power .5 to power 1 but not anymore than that.
The other consideration is that NPRs don't use fuel or maintenence so in theory their ships can just blast along at full overdrive with no worries, while your own ships run out of fuel and break.
To solve the fuel/maintenance/NPR problem you could just introduce a separate "engine overheats" check, perhaps something that starts very low but increases proportionally with time. Not sure an overheated engine would just shut down though, or would it explode?

One problem I see is how this interacts with fighters. I haven't done the maths but I'm guessing that it would be very difficult to cope with higher fuel consumption for fighters as they stand, but current fighter speeds are not necessarily high enough to compete with double speed warships.

Steve would probably also need to look into missile to hit calcs. Otherwise everyone will just go to overdrive when each missile wave is one tick out to drop hit rates. 



 
 

Offline bean

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 10:05:14 AM »
What should such a button do? "Pick the speed for the task group that every ship can achieve on their least powerful engines" ? Something more user-definable?
If I were setting it up, I'd add a third speed box to the TG window, labeled 'cruise speed'.  It's user-definable, like the current speed box, but probably with a button that would set its value to 'maximum cruise speed for slowest ship'.  And add a command to allow you to set cruise and max speed through the orders window.
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I'd care about having to do micromanagement to avoid wasting fuel for the same performance.
That's what is likely to kill this off.  High transit speed is a boon for most ships.

Using more than one engine will never be efficient due to the additional weight, wha I would prefer is if the currently existing option to change a task groups speed would also allow more efficient engine operation.
I'm broadly in agreement, although I can think of a few cases where a 'sprint engine' might be very handy.  The most obvious is for something like a survey vessel.  It's got a relatively slow main engine for its normal job, and a small, max-boost sprint engine for running away from things. 
 
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Obviously an engine will be at its best operating condition when running at it's designed speed, just like a real engine, but there should be some advantage of running slower.  At the moment halving a ships speed just makes it take twice as long which uses just as much fuel.
You shouldn't be able to throttle back an FAC's engines to suddenly make them as efficient as a freighter, but going slower should save fuel, the question is how much?
The best way to do it is probably to change the 'resistance model' the game uses, not the engines themselves.  If power required scales with speed^1.5, throttling back will help a lot.  Allowing really wide throttling of the engines seems both unrealistic and an invitation for micromanagement and abuse.
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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2016, 07:22:49 AM »
  The best way to do it is probably to change the 'resistance model' the game uses, not the engines themselves.  If power required scales with speed^1.5, throttling back will help a lot.  Allowing really wide throttling of the engines seems both unrealistic and an invitation for micromanagement and abuse.

Agreed - I've always liked the idea of having going fast mean more fuel consumed per mile (similar to wet navy ships).  That being said, it opens up a whole new round of interface/reporting issues for Steve - a ship wouldn't have a single fixed range any more; it would have range-at-speed.  It would also probably mean specifying a default cruising speed, probably on a per-class level.

John
 

Offline ChildServices

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Re: Multiple engine types?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2016, 07:41:25 AM »
Just make engine power modifiers slightly more expensive as a trade-off for allowing a x2EP engine to only consume as much as a x0.5EP engine if you dial the task-group down to 1/4 of full speed, instead of just consuming a quarter of normal consumption. I highly doubt rockets actually work that way in real life, but at least this way nobody needs to add any more buttons to the UI or any more mechanics that I need to use my calculator for.

Edit: Anyway, I don't like the comparisons to sea ships. TN elements might give the motion of this game's starships fluid-like characteristics, but these "ships" are still single-stage rocket vehicles and not boats. iirc the space shuttle itself only had one type of main engine (three of them), and anything else that it had was either intended to be jettisoned or it was a manoeuvring thruster.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 08:52:17 AM by ChildServices »
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