Author Topic: Missiles, stealth and me  (Read 1676 times)

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Offline Zimmo (OP)

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Missiles, stealth and me
« on: March 15, 2011, 08:01:12 PM »
I'm trying to create a submarine analogue, ie a stealthed ship design.  It would mainly rely on passive sensors and fight using 'active' missiles, ie ones that have their own seeker heads.  Now normally missile combat requires an illumination source for a fire control to lock onto (ie an active sensor) which sorta kills the idea of a stealthed sub (Yessir.  We are totally invisible while we radiate energy like a small star!! :) )

There is a button on the Task Groups screen called 'Msl Launch' which allows you to flush all loaded tubes without linking them to a firecontrol.  I assume this allows you to fire on passively detected targets without having to illuminate them with active sensors for a FC to lock on to which is great if you want a quiet launch.

I assume you would then designate a waypoint for the missiles to fly to.  Can you link the waypoint to the desired target, so as the target moves the waypoint follows it? I believe you can do that for planetary bodies (I think I saw the ability to do so mentioned in a thread somewhere)

Thus once you have launched you change your bearing on the target, a) to keep it in range of your passives and b) to prevent a reciprocal bearing launch from the target if/when they spot the incoming missiles.

2nd question is which seeker head type is better Active, Thermal or EM? I assume the active sensor resolution works the same as for normal ship sensors

I ask this cos I'd like to get something like this setup as pickets for hostile areas and as raiders but don't want to do all this and find that the ruddy things don't work that way.  The taxpayers will not be happy with such profligerate waste if that's the case :) It will also allow me to drop FC's and designators and solely have passives on it.

Cheers
Mark
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 08:50:03 PM »
You have the basics down, although I have never gotten a way point linked to a ship.  Track the ships you are firing at and fire at a waypoint near where they should be (preferably ahead of them) when the missiles arrive.  The missiles will orbit the waypoint until something comes within thier sensor range.  As for the different types of sensors they all have problems.  EM will only pick up an active sensor signal, or the shields if they are raised.  Shields tend to have a massive signature however so this does work against a target that has their shields up.  If they do not have actives going or shields up then you are out of luck for em homing.  Thermal is dependant on how fast they are going.  This one is probably the best for general use as you are going to tend to fire on targets that are moving.  If they move then they have some sort of thermal signature.  The active sensor works just like your ships active sensors, and is on from the moment you fire the missile.  This will tend to pinpoint you launch location if they have decent em sensors on their ships.  Also to get any real range on a reasonable size shipboard missile (4-6msp) you are going to need a fairly large resolution.  This will then tend to make them almost useless against things like gunboats or fighters.

Good Luck
Brian
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 09:42:26 PM »
If you launch a bunch of missiles with on-board guidance like this, say Thermal, and they detect a bunch of thermal sigs, will they A) All go for the biggest, B) All go for the first they locate (which may have more to do with database order than anything in-game), or C) spread out over detected sigs?

And if they lose a signature, what do they do?  Go back to their waypoint?  Continue on their heading to target's previously known position and try to reacquire?  Self-destruct?
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 10:14:04 PM »
As a suggestion: You could tug one or two ships with no drive but tons of sensors into the system as sensor beacons or you make your sub big enough to tender some parasites which are equipped with sensors. Btw. The efficiency techs from PP make your drives a bit lighter and lower the thermal signature a bit.
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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 11:39:46 PM »
Side Note:  Ship size is key.  The problem is that the bad guys light off their active sensors fairly often so just having a small signature on their passives isn't good enough.  Once you're below their resolution the detection range goes down like the square of the (smallness of the) size.  1000 ton ships are great for this sort of thing - you can go with a single conventional engine and get the same weapons load as an FAC, but with much better endurance.

John
 

Offline dooots

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 02:06:54 AM »
You may want to look up how mines have worked in the past.  I've never tried using way points and on board sensors to attack but I'm guessing it will work the same as a mine field in which case you may end up with massive overkill on just a few targets.
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 06:55:45 PM »
I have successfully employed the following design in solo missions against Precursors (wolfpack-style operations would theoretically work just as well). Back in 5.02, at least.

Quote
Shinobi class Special Recon Vessel    5000 tons     460 Crew     1364.86 BP      TCS 15  TH 80  EM 0
5000 km/s    JR 3-250     Armour 1-26     Shields 0-0     Sensors 44/44/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 7.92
Annual Failure Rate: 57%    IFR: 0.8%    Maint Capacity 597 MSP    Max Repair 200 MSP    Est Time: 2.74 Years
Magazine 60   

J5000(3-250) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 5000 tons    Distance 250k km     Squadron Size 3
MagCon Fusion Drive E6-MS (4)    Power 125    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 20    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 150.0 billion km   (347 days at full power)

Tactical Missile Launch Tube S6-720 (4)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 720
Shuriken MFC M16-R9 (1)     Range 16.6m km    Resolution 9
Shuriken TASM (10)  Speed: 41,700 km/s   End: 6m    Range: 15m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 264 / 158 / 79

Moebius Sensor Suite A-19-16 (1)     GPS 1792     Range 19.7m km    Resolution 16
Moebius Sensor Suite T-4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
Moebius Sensor Suite E-4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 15% of normal

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

And here's some informative fluff!

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Taking advantage of the Ronin class' ability to remain virtually undetectable even at distances under 10 million km, the Terran Navy decided to develop a variant that cannot be entirely considered a scout nor a warship. The Shinobi exploits its minimal cross-section and more noticeable thermal signature to lure enemies into range of the innovative Shuriken Tactical Anti-Ship Missile (TASM). The Shuriken is meant to be manually fired at waypoints placed on the enemy's location, so that the missile's integrated active sensors can detect the target on their own and strike it without ever revealing the firer's position.
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 08:39:15 PM »
So the precursors spot your thermal sig, start closing in, but can't get a lock with active sensors so don't start firing.  Then you unload the tubes on them. Cool ship, although the armament is pretty light, and some of the larger precursors might shrug it off and run you down.  They'll be able to lock you with their anti-missile actives, which will probably pick you up and not much less than 15mkm.

I like the strategy, but maybe going for 25-30mkm missiles would be better? Remember that res 1 sensors that can pick up a size 6 missile from 2.5mkm, like the ones I've seen precursors using, can pick up anything 1HS or larger from a lot further than that.

I've had a try at something similar, using FACs with box launchers escorted into system by a survey ship as an early-game way to deal with small groups of precursors before I have a proper "blue water" navy.
 

Offline Shadow

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2011, 09:35:35 PM »
So the precursors spot your thermal sig, start closing in, but can't get a lock with active sensors so don't start firing.  Then you unload the tubes on them. Cool ship, although the armament is pretty light, and some of the larger precursors might shrug it off and run you down.  They'll be able to lock you with their anti-missile actives, which will probably pick you up and not much less than 15mkm.

I like the strategy, but maybe going for 25-30mkm missiles would be better? Remember that res 1 sensors that can pick up a size 6 missile from 2.5mkm, like the ones I've seen precursors using, can pick up anything 1HS or larger from a lot further than that.

I've had a try at something similar, using FACs with box launchers escorted into system by a survey ship as an early-game way to deal with small groups of precursors before I have a proper "blue water" navy.

It's pretty similar to a WW2 submarine.

You can control the bait, your thermal signature, by regulating engine power. The Shinobi has a signature of 80 only at full power, so it can easily be stealthier if you're willing to go slower. The armament is light, yes, because the ship's essentially an armed scout with very strict tonnage limits for the sake of minimal TCS. Admittedly, I only got to use it against the smaller kind of Precursor vessels, but in that case the Shinobi could remain undetected in the face of active sensors as close as 8 million km. Wolfpacks could possibly take care of more/larger targets.

What'd be the advantage of longer-ranged missiles? They'd be bigger unless performance's reduced in other areas, and that would have a detrimental ripple effect across the whole design: enlarged sensor suite, bigger launchers, less magazine space and heavier, slower final hull and therefore more noticeable cross-section. The Shinobi is meant to and can draw targets in close, and the less distance between you and the target, the less time you give the enemy AMM point defense.
 

Offline dooots

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Re: Missiles, stealth and me
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 10:29:50 PM »
The design was fine for 5.02 as Point Defense sensors had a much smaller max range then they do now.  In 5.2 sensors got reworked and now to pickup missiles at 1mkm you end up with a sensor that has a max range of about 10mkm for ships.  So you would probably have to fire from 40-50mkm to be safe now.