Civilian Industry and expanded economic model!

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I would like if civilian industry actually consumed some preset number of resources based on the economy wealth factor and size of population. So as you raise your economy wealth your civilian industry consume more resources from your stock. Civilian Mining Complexes could reduce the resources needed in system where you have colonies to some extent.

If there are not enough resources then you should suffer economic penalties and gain some unrest.

This would in my opinion make the economic model in the game a little more interesting. You could add it as an option for those that don't want a more realistic economic model in the game when starting a game in the same way you have with other realism options.

There are probably other things that could be considered such as Commercial ships used by the government costing you some Wealth each year. I don't like the fact these ships are completely free of charge once constructed. A simple deduction of Wealth each five day cycle or month for running these ships would be a simple mechanic and at least not make them free of charge. The cost could be about 1/20 of their production cost in Wealth per year. Or simply add the option of Commercial ships needing maintenance in the same way military ships do but at a lower cost say half the cost of military ships.

Add a small supply cost to ships being maintained in hangars. A small supply cost for just maintaining them, slightly more for reducing the maintenance clock.

Add a wealth cost for running academies and maintaining your officer and crew base, this should not be a trivial number in any event.

Increase the incentive of long term industry and research planning. It has never been very efficient to change priority in either of these in reality. Exactly what would be needed I don't know. But I would like to have a slider mechanics in some way over the current way where you have to pay some efficiency whenever you change focus or priority on a specific world. The more you shift focus the harder the penalty will be before you can regain it after the industry or research has adapted.

It would be nice with a universal trading market of mineral, ship components and other structures where the game can set prices based on availability and demand. Societies that have open trade should be able to trade more or less anything that you can build and move. If this is connected to the efficiency of different industrial focus then trade will be more interesting even between empires.

There are probably allot more ideas that can be shared, so please share them here.

[83athom]

I would like if civilian industry actually consumed some preset number of resources based on the economy wealth factor and size of population. So as you raise your economy wealth your civilian industry consume more resources from your stock. Civilian Mining Complexes could reduce the resources needed in system where you have colonies to some extent.

That would be interesting, however, I do not thing civilians would want strange/radioactive materials for themselves. The companies might but the average citizen would probably not. And civilian mines are already a thing, if you don't buy the material from them the materials already go to the civilian sector.

There are probably other things that could be considered such as Commercial ships used by the government costing you some Wealth each year. I don't like the fact these ships are completely free of charge once constructed. A simple deduction of Wealth each five day cycle or month for running these ships would be a simple mechanic and at least not make them free of charge. The cost could be about 1/20 of their production cost in Wealth per year. Or simply add the option of Commercial ships needing maintenance in the same way military ships do but at a lower cost say half the cost of military ships.

But commercial ships are designed to not cost anything after being built. That is why everyone isn't using top-of-the-line military gear. Commercial equipment is designed to last more than performance (that's the reason commercial engines start at .5 power). They still cost a bit (fuel requirements) already.

Add a small supply cost to ships being maintained in hangars. A small supply cost for just maintaining them, slightly more for reducing the maintenance clock.

They cost maintenance supplies already.

Add a wealth cost for running academies and maintaining your officer and crew base, this should not be a trivial number in any event.

There already is, its just really small. I have 33 units on Terra with a annual cost of 24.2 wealth. Although I think this only includes actual ground units, you could just RP that the officers are a part of this cost. I like to think that new recruits maintain the facilities themselves as a part of training.

Increase the incentive of long term industry and research planning. It has never been very efficient to change priority in either of these in reality. Exactly what would be needed I don't know. But I would like to have a slider mechanics in some way over the current way where you have to pay some efficiency whenever you change focus or priority on a specific world. The more you shift focus the harder the penalty will be before you can regain it after the industry or research has adapted.

Just RP. Many do that anyway.

It would be nice with a universal trading market of mineral, ship components and other structures where the game can set prices based on availability and demand. Societies that have open trade should be able to trade more or less anything that you can build and move. If this is connected to the efficiency of different industrial focus then trade will be more interesting even between empires.

The reason this shouldn't be a part is that different empires will have different standards of building, thus parts would be incompatible. Plus this is a very exploitable thing. However it is a good idea, it just needs to be refined more.

[alex_brunius]

That would be interesting, however, I do not thing civilians would want strange/radioactive materials for themselves. The companies might but the average citizen would probably not.

In what era of human history has civilians NOT dreamed about getting hold of high grade military quality equipment & materials?

If it is made by exotic materials with almost magical properties I can't see how this need would be lessened, quite the opposite...  


The way I justify/abstract it in my campaigns is that civilians do have/get access to it, and the amount you mine is simply the share for the military/space organization.

[schroeam]

I would like if civilian industry actually consumed some preset number of resources based on the economy wealth factor and size of population.

This is already done.  If you set up contracts for civilian shipping to move mines, factories, research labs, etc. the government pays for those services and it is reflected in the economics tab.

What would be interesting would be the ability to place civilian shipping under government control during times of emergency.  Of course this should also be charged against the Imperial coffers. 

Something else that would be useful, and going along with utilization of civilian shipping, would be the use of colony ship and freighter pairs to transport troops during war emergencies.  It makes sense that this is something that would really happen, and happens today.  Ship the equipment in the freighters and the personnel in the colony ships.  There would have to be rules to make sure the units were not combat ready if just the freighter or colony ship showed up.  Maybe make them both be in the same TF.

Adam.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

That would be interesting, however, I do not thing civilians would want strange/radioactive materials for themselves. The companies might but the average citizen would probably not. And civilian mines are already a thing, if you don't buy the material from them the materials already go to the civilian sector.

I'm pretty sure Newtonian materials is used in consumer products or in the production lines themselves just as military equipment. Commercial ships are a pretty strong indication in how Newtonian materials are used in everything after the invention of Newtonian technology. So it stands to reason that civilian industry would consume some Newtonian materials alongside the government.

But commercial ships are designed to not cost anything after being built. That is why everyone isn't using top-of-the-line military gear. Commercial equipment is designed to last more than performance (that's the reason commercial engines start at .5 power). They still cost a bit (fuel requirements) already.

That is why I only said we should pay a small Wealth fee for servicing them. This would represent wages and minor maintenance that needs to be done on these ships, simple solution which don't require the ships to care about a maintenance clock... anything that is free is by definition not realistic. Fuel is also not the issue here.

They cost maintenance supplies already.

Yes, the Hangars themselves cost maintenance, not the stuff inside the hangar. Ground based hangars are also maintenance free as well. Hangars is also quite cheap while most stuff inside a hangar can be many times more expensive and complex. Adding a small MSP drain for keeping stuff inside a Hangar would be a small and simple solution.

This is already done.  If you set up contracts for civilian shipping to move mines, factories, research labs, etc. the government pays for those services and it is reflected in the economics tab.

Not exactly the same thing. Using Civilian companies to transport equipment and facilities has nothing directly to do with civilian manufacturing at all. I was talking about Civilian Manufacturing consuming Newtonian Natural resources... where else are they going to get them from?
Civilian Mining Complexes can provide some of it but not nearly enough. You rarely have that many Civilian Mining Complexes in an empire.

What would be interesting would be the ability to place civilian shipping under government control during times of emergency.  Of course this should also be charged against the Imperial coffers.  

Interesting idea...

Something else that would be useful, and going along with utilization of civilian shipping, would be the use of colony ship and freighter pairs to transport troops during war emergencies.  It makes sense that this is something that would really happen, and happens today.  Ship the equipment in the freighters and the personnel in the colony ships.  There would have to be rules to make sure the units were not combat ready if just the freighter or colony ship showed up.  Maybe make them both be in the same TF.

Might be hard to implement but the idea is sound. I view transport ship more as specialized ship more equivalent to Amphibious ships today. I don't think that colony ships is really in much need since military units have such low count of personnel. Freighters could probably be able to be converted into crude troop transport ships, say 50% reduction in carrying capacity and some penalties to combat ability for a while after being deployed.

[schroeam]

Not exactly the same thing. Using Civilian companies to transport equipment and facilities has nothing directly to do with civilian manufacturing at all. I was talking about Civilian Manufacturing consuming Newtonian Natural resources... where else are they going to get them from?
Civilian Mining Complexes can provide some of it but not nearly enough. You rarely have that many Civilian Mining Complexes in an empire.

Ah... I see the confusion.  I quoted the wrong part of the post... If you match this:

There are probably other things that could be considered such as Commercial ships used by the government costing you some Wealth each year.

with this:

This is already done.  If you set up contracts for civilian shipping to move mines, factories, research labs, etc. the government pays for those services and it is reflected in the economics tab.

it makes more sense 

[MarcAFK]

Are we forgetting that a significant part of your population is tied up in commercial activities? We coukd also assume that this also includes privately owned mining and manufacturing, while civilian companies doing this would add to the games complexity I'm not sure it would have much benefit.

[Paul M]

The cost of maintaining your military personnel should be added.  People in militaries cost a lot of money in reality.  It is why through most of human history professional militaries have also been small.  It is also worth noting that a Lt. Cmdr is the equivelent of a captain in the army so they aren't recruits but seasoned officers.   The academy is more of a "command school" then it is a military academy like Royal Roads or Annapolis.

The price of civillian fuel should be significantly increased, it is extremely valuable and at the moment it is essentially free (the cost is so small as to be negligable).

The NCC is currently spending ~50% of its income on civillian mines, so it does add up.  But realistically you simply cannot afford to not do it.  Each CMC is 10 automated mines which is 1200 duranium and 1200 corundium and 2400 wealth; that is a massive investment and more so when you include the construction factory capacity cost.  I'm not really sure divirting TN minerals to the civillian economy in some form of tax would be a great idea, game wise.  Logically they should be used by both government and civillian industry but due to the limited nature of them I must admit I don't like the idea.  It is hard to balance your needs and resources now.

Fundamentally if the drain to the civillian side is big enough to notice then likely there would be complaints, if it is small enough to not notice then why have it? 

You can always consider that the reserves found are those that are allocated to the government (80%) and that a fraction (20%) is divirted to the civillian side automatically.  I've always had issues with games that include explicit mineral use that they rarely model it sensibly.  In reality governments purchase the minerals from someone (heck they don't even do that they buy the products made from them), they don't as a rule own the mines themselves unless you are a totalitarian/communist regime.  Aurora's economy is fragile and frankly the civillian mines are a necessary patch to keep it working.  Because once the mineral crisis strikes in the game your only way out is via buying the minerals from the civillians, because the mines that are extracting the resources don't come out of the pool of resources.  It is nearly impossible to build yourself out of a mineral shortage.

I would also add in something that reduces your surplus wealth.  Basically governments can't run positive balances.  Either the money is siphoned off into someone bank account or else it is used up providing government services but there should be a hard limit of no more than a years worth of income as a rainy day surplus allowed, if your current wealth exceeds that then it is reduced.  Otherwise when doing conventional starts you quickly build up a huge nest egg.  If your expense exceeds your income then that should be an economic modifier, representing forced cut backs and loans and their repayments.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

Ah... I see the confusion.  I quoted the wrong part of the post... If you match this:

with this:

it makes more sense 

You are referring to civilian ships not Commercial rated ships run by the government...

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

The cost of maintaining your military personnel should be added.  People in militaries cost a lot of money in reality.  It is why through most of human history professional militaries have also been small.  It is also worth noting that a Lt. Cmdr is the equivelent of a captain in the army so they aren't recruits but seasoned officers.   The academy is more of a "command school" then it is a military academy like Royal Roads or Annapolis.

The price of civillian fuel should be significantly increased, it is extremely valuable and at the moment it is essentially free (the cost is so small as to be negligable).

The NCC is currently spending ~50% of its income on civillian mines, so it does add up.  But realistically you simply cannot afford to not do it.  Each CMC is 10 automated mines which is 1200 duranium and 1200 corundium and 2400 wealth; that is a massive investment and more so when you include the construction factory capacity cost.  I'm not really sure divirting TN minerals to the civillian economy in some form of tax would be a great idea, game wise.  Logically they should be used by both government and civillian industry but due to the limited nature of them I must admit I don't like the idea.  It is hard to balance your needs and resources now.

Fundamentally if the drain to the civillian side is big enough to notice then likely there would be complaints, if it is small enough to not notice then why have it? 

You can always consider that the reserves found are those that are allocated to the government (80%) and that a fraction (20%) is divirted to the civillian side automatically.  I've always had issues with games that include explicit mineral use that they rarely model it sensibly.  In reality governments purchase the minerals from someone (heck they don't even do that they buy the products made from them), they don't as a rule own the mines themselves unless you are a totalitarian/communist regime.  Aurora's economy is fragile and frankly the civillian mines are a necessary patch to keep it working.  Because once the mineral crisis strikes in the game your only way out is via buying the minerals from the civillians, because the mines that are extracting the resources don't come out of the pool of resources.  It is nearly impossible to build yourself out of a mineral shortage.

I would also add in something that reduces your surplus wealth.  Basically governments can't run positive balances.  Either the money is siphoned off into someone bank account or else it is used up providing government services but there should be a hard limit of no more than a years worth of income as a rainy day surplus allowed, if your current wealth exceeds that then it is reduced.  Otherwise when doing conventional starts you quickly build up a huge nest egg.  If your expense exceeds your income then that should be an economic modifier, representing forced cut backs and loans and their repayments.

Some very good points... my idea was that if you don't expand the mining infrastructure both government and civilian should start to suffer. There are very few ways that the civilian part of the economy actually can suffer aside from polluting a planet or not having enough troops or ships.

I also think it should be an option like if you want to use maintenance. Those that want a more advanced civilian economy could enable that option, those that don't want to deal with it does not have to.

I certainly agree with storing Wealth. I assume wealth is an intangible commodity such as energy and services and not just money. You should have an erosion of stored wealth each year... say 10%. That is what I do in my games. So eventually a large stored wealth will erode once an economy stabilizes around zero. It could also be nice if wealth could be used to speed up certain projects, be them construction or research... that way you would not store so much and can use it.

Terraforming should also cost quite allot of wealth in addition to building the facilities and/or ships.

[Theodidactus]

I care about this a great deal because I have a great interest in political science. My aurora universe is mostly about the politics, not the warships: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/board,200.0.html


Here are some considerations for any given aurora universe:


- The civilian market obviously consumes transnewtonians, because their ships must be made out of TN materials. Also, they tend to grow at a much faster rate than my military, which is where about 90% of the drama in my own internal storyline comes from. My own personal workaround for this is that civilian shipping gets almost all its minerals and fuel from my alien allies, who are lucrative trade partners. Most universes are probably okay imagining that imaginary civilian mines grow up in tandem with military ones, but this doesn't work in my own universe, where transnewtonian elements are scarce and the military is relatively week compared to titanic corporations on the planetary surface that own all the mines and stuff. Another possibility is that civilian ships DON'T need TNs for the shortages you tend to worry about. I kinda doubt anyone has ever experienced, say, a boronide crunch or whatever. In my experience duranium and sorium, followed by vendarite, are my biggest concerns. Maybe civilians can build their starships out of iron or whatever and don't need duranium...they take a little sorium, and you can abstract the missing supplies of all other transnewtonians.

- Excepting shipping, it's not implausible to assume that "Most" transnewtonians would be in military hands. I can imagine my citizens carrying corundium-lined transistor radios around or whatever, but I bet if you took the corundium out of each one and piled it together, you'd only get a few tons.

Basically governments can't run positive balances.

Yeah this one has always bothered me, but I imagine around it in aurora. To be more exact I'd say large institutions never run positive balances because it's dumb and in daily life we almost never dispute this. Were I to win the lottery, you'd probably think me a fool if I hid it under a mattress or even put it in a bank. A clever man would invest the money in something fun or that improves his life (infrastructure), invest it so as to reliably generate more money over a long time period (infrastructure again) or give it away to help people (tax cuts, social welfare). A government or big corporation running a positive balance will almost always invest in infrastructure (or advertising or laser cutters or research or whatever) or diversify an existing portfolio...or raise salaries/cut taxes/give their investors more money.

But I usually envision "wealth" not as an actual dollars and cents value, which doesn't frankly make a lot of sense in a post-scarcity economy like most auroran economies implicitly are (for civilians anyway, and that's not necessarily true in many campaigns like mine for example). Instead I visualize it as a measure of Capital and rents . Rather than get into the weeds about what exactly that means here's a system:
- civilian people who aren't you want things very much. You don't want these things.
- Shipping lines help people get things
- Orders and events from military people who are you can make shipping lines not do this ("deliver a mine to here" or "got shot by a missile")
- "Wealth" in aurora abstractly measures how effortlessly people can get things. A relatively high wealth means people can easily get things. A relatively low wealth means they can't.
- Orders from people who are you decrease wealth, because they occupy a shipping line's time that would otherwise be invested in helping people who aren't you
- when wealth drops below zero, the work involved in people getting things they want is so high that shipping lines would rather help the people that aren't you (for $$$?) than do what you say.

Conveniently this works regardless of whatever your economic system is in aurora.

[Theodidactus]

some of this is addressed here, also occasionally by me: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,7373.0.html

[Paul M]

It is probably worth pointing out that when you talk about building things with TN materials they don't make up the totality of the object.  My civillian engines take 25 units (tonnes) of Gallicite, and are 25 HS (7500 m3/7500 tonne) objects, and at the same time my 5 HS (250 m3/250 tonne) military engines take the same amount of gallicite.  Clearly there is a lot of more standard material in the engine then TN.  The same is true for any other infrastructure system or component or installation.

The TN materials are used as part of alloys, for specific tasks, or in specific components.  The use of duranium...assuming it like every other -ium in the known universe is a metal...is the same as the current use of titanium by civilians.  My bike has a titanium alloy frame.  Admittedly most of the titanium in the world is probably used for military construction but apparently sufficient exists that bike frames are now made of it.  The fact is that once you have something like a room temperature superconductor (assume for the sake of argument that is what galicite is) then first you get that used in big government projects (mag lev rail lines) but sooner or later someone makes a toaster using it.  Transisitors were all but unknown devices till NASA went to the moon, and a spin off of that was transistor radios in every car.

I'm not an economist but I have played a fair number of games where you try and do this sort of thing and I've never found one where I got the real life feel from it.  My claim to fame is that I managed to destroy the german economy in Victoria, and the US economy in the Victoria 2 demo.  Except by doing what were clearly absurd gamey exploits it was hard to figure out how to do things in that game.  As Aurora is a management game (as all "strategy" games are) the usual way is to leave the economy as something to explicitly manage while in reality governments haven't got the control most games give the player.   

It is just not at all clear to me (and there is no reason it should be as I'm not a theoretical economist) how to produce a game system that more closely approximates a real world government economic model.  If you look at EVE online you see that making a game economy work is very complex.  Most MMOs fail baddly with any attempt they make at this task.  Single player games have the advantage of a defined total wealth and do better, but anything open ended/open world tend to do death spirals at some point.

Starfire where I have considerable experience is simply compound interest scaling.  Every investment you make puts more money in your pocket the next turn.  The result is that the only brake to the economy is military maintenance, and under a standard game even that fails to stop the economy at somepoint since money becomes so plentiful that you can't spend it fast enough.  Starslayer and I had to take draconian steps to bring the economy down to the level where you keep the game in check.  Aurora's economy on the other hand is driven by scarcity, basically you have to keep finding the minerals you need to feed your growth.  But since the objects you need to expand your production come from your resource pool at some stage you get locked into a death spiral that only a CMC can free you from as those mines are free (in terms of resources).  You don't have to pay them back in some way.  The NC has over 80 CMCs (800+ automatic mines) working compared to 135 automatic mines that are government owned.  But thos 135 automatic mines represent 12 years of production from the Corundium mines on Calisto, and the 100 regular mines there is 5 years of internal production.

I feel like a locust swarm at times.

[Theodidactus]

.  Aurora's economy on the other hand is driven by scarcity, basically you have to keep finding the minerals you need to feed your growth.  But since the objects you need to expand your production come from your resource pool at some stage you get locked into a death spiral that only a CMC can free you from as those mines are free (in terms of resources).  You don't have to pay them back in some way.  The NC has over 80 CMCs (800+ automatic mines) working compared to 135 automatic mines that are government owned.  But thos 135 automatic mines represent 12 years of production from the Corundium mines on Calisto, and the 100 regular mines there is 5 years of internal production.

I feel like a locust swarm at times.

....which is funny because the setting Aurora generally invokes is actually one that's typically post scarcity. As I've observed on other threads , a state that can alter whole planetary atmospheres and hurl hundred-thousand-ton spacecraft along at 10,000 kps is not easy to describe using "normal" economic models. It's unclear how things like "debt" and "taxes" would work in such a society.

In general, I like how the game has kept the system abstract, which is something I've always tried to remind the forum in general when proposals that are social-science specific are mentioned, even my own: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,7348.0.html

All proposed changes to Aurora should remember that some players play "nation X in space" campaigns, others play "star trek ripoff #588" campaigns and still others do something really unique like "zen nomads in space" or "evil kthork brainmunching empire" or my own "unsteady peace preserved by a military protectorate" scenario. All require vastly different economic models, which is sorta why I like that steve kept things vague.

[Jorgen_CAB (OP)]

I think that is why it would be nice with an "option" to use an advanced economic model or not in the same spirit that you can choose to use realistic Maintenance of military ship or politically inclined officers taking charge over more competent ones.

Both the civilian economy and trading system could need a small enhancement.