Author Topic: 'Submarines'  (Read 6510 times)

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Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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'Submarines'
« on: October 03, 2020, 09:43:58 PM »
Does anyone have any ideas for a space 'submarine' that can hide from enemies but reliably attack unarmed shipping?

I'd imagine it would have to be fast, stealthy, and somewhat durable maintenance wise in order to act independently alone; three things that are not really compatible with one-another.

On the plus side, all the armaments you'd need would be a light beam weapon. Perhaps some slow-loading missile launchers (or even outright box-launchers) as torpedo bays to really play into the submarine role and compliment your 'deck gun'.
 

Offline mergele

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2020, 10:16:31 PM »
I think the best approach would be to modify a long range scout type. Drop the speed requirement and you should be able to et something that is rather small, can stay out for a year or two if you push it and still faster than usual civilian ships. Since it probably won't be fast enough to vanish again if there are hostile ships in the area if it goes in for a beam kill I'd use a big passive sensor (don't want to get caught by EM emissions) and selfguiding missiles with relatively low speeds. When you see an appropriate signatur fire away at the calculated intersection point and start running. I sadly deleted my last galaxy with one of these types (was more a scout with a bit of multipurpose missile sortiment) or I'd go play around with it a bit and see if I can get a more destruction oriented example.
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2020, 10:28:36 PM »
I have built something similar before.

In a previous VB6 game I had some small, stealthy ships with big passive sensors and box launchers. The job was to sneak in slowly (via the set speed) pick up the baddies and then barf a wall of thermal seekers at said baddies. I got some truly spectacular kills catching enemy fleets in orbit with shields down.

Going slower than max speed really drops your signature.

I did this since I was at a major tech disadvantage and was using these as cheap mobile mines to slow the NPR roll on my systems. These ships, along with a veritable buttload of mines did a yeoman job of catching the NPRs with their virtual pants down several times.

If they got spotted, they died horribly though.

So, they were small, with big passive sensors, NO active sensors (weight saved), no beams, no CIWS, no shields. Just big thermally reduced engines, long deployment times and spare parts, and a load of box launchers with thermal seeking missiles. Shot the missiles at waypoints and let the thermal seekers do their thing. Light armor too, they were moderately cheap (except the big passive sensors) so they were like Doritos, if they got crunched, I just made more. I was making 8 every 2 years.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2020, 11:09:55 PM »
I think the best approach would be to modify a long range scout type. Drop the speed requirement and you should be able to et something that is rather small, can stay out for a year or two if you push it and still faster than usual civilian ships. Since it probably won't be fast enough to vanish again if there are hostile ships in the area if it goes in for a beam kill I'd use a big passive sensor (don't want to get caught by EM emissions) and selfguiding missiles with relatively low speeds. When you see an appropriate signatur fire away at the calculated intersection point and start running. I sadly deleted my last galaxy with one of these types (was more a scout with a bit of multipurpose missile sortiment) or I'd go play around with it a bit and see if I can get a more destruction oriented example.
You don't actually want to escape at high speed.  What you want to do is drop your speed, reducing your thermal signature, and get away from your old position.  Like U-boats and going into silent running.
 

Offline wolfhere

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2020, 04:42:35 AM »
Quote from: Arwyn link=topic=11935. msg141269#msg141269 date=1601782116
I have built something similar before.

In a previous VB6 game I had some small, stealthy ships with big passive sensors and box launchers.  The job was to sneak in slowly (via the set speed) pick up the baddies and then barf a wall of thermal seekers at said baddies.  I got some truly spectacular kills catching enemy fleets in orbit with shields down.

Going slower than max speed really drops your signature.

I did this since I was at a major tech disadvantage and was using these as cheap mobile mines to slow the NPR roll on my systems.  These ships, along with a veritable buttload of mines did a yeoman job of catching the NPRs with their virtual pants down several times. 

If they got spotted, they died horribly though.

So, they were small, with big passive sensors, NO active sensors (weight saved), no beams, no CIWS, no shields.  Just big thermally reduced engines, long deployment times and spare parts, and a load of box launchers with thermal seeking missiles.  Shot the missiles at waypoints and let the thermal seekers do their thing.  Light armor too, they were moderately cheap (except the big passive sensors) so they were like Doritos, if they got crunched, I just made more.  I was making 8 every 2 years.

Do you remember how big you made the subs? was it sub 5000ton? also did you have powerful thermal tech? What were the missiles/torpedoes like? You did not put any cloaking tech on them other then thermal damping on the engines and driving slow?

Sorry for the flurry of questions but its really cool to see someone actually try and be successful with this strategy. 
 

Online Garfunkel

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2020, 05:45:11 AM »
Submarines do not work if JP are guarded because no amount of thermap dampening and cloaking will get an actual ship (not a fighter) to be invisible at those ranges. If the JP into the system where you want to wreck havoc is not guarded, then yeah, follow Arwyn's advice. As Barkhorn said, you do not want high speed because that'll just reveal your "sub" to the enemy. You want to avoid detection as much as possible and that's also why Arwyn didn't use active sensors - just missiles with sensors that home in on targets from the waypoint. It's not quite as effective now that shields are usually on at all times, unlike in the VB6 version where shield were generally off to save fuel.

Cloaking would be only necessary if you can't get your missiles to have sufficient range - over 100 million km at minimum. It's unlikely that the enemy will have active sensors with ranges much beyond that, especially for small resolutions.

 

Offline Tikigod

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2020, 06:20:40 AM »
Quote from: Arwyn link=topic=11935. msg141269#msg141269 date=1601782116
I have built something similar before.

In a previous VB6 game I had some small, stealthy ships with big passive sensors and box launchers.  The job was to sneak in slowly (via the set speed) pick up the baddies and then barf a wall of thermal seekers at said baddies.  I got some truly spectacular kills catching enemy fleets in orbit with shields down.

Going slower than max speed really drops your signature.

I did this since I was at a major tech disadvantage and was using these as cheap mobile mines to slow the NPR roll on my systems.  These ships, along with a veritable buttload of mines did a yeoman job of catching the NPRs with their virtual pants down several times. 

If they got spotted, they died horribly though.

So, they were small, with big passive sensors, NO active sensors (weight saved), no beams, no CIWS, no shields.  Just big thermally reduced engines, long deployment times and spare parts, and a load of box launchers with thermal seeking missiles.  Shot the missiles at waypoints and let the thermal seekers do their thing.  Light armor too, they were moderately cheap (except the big passive sensors) so they were like Doritos, if they got crunched, I just made more.  I was making 8 every 2 years.

Do you remember how big you made the subs? was it sub 5000ton? also did you have powerful thermal tech? What were the missiles/torpedoes like? You did not put any cloaking tech on them other then thermal damping on the engines and driving slow?

Sorry for the flurry of questions but its really cool to see someone actually try and be successful with this strategy.

I've used the general concept for my Intelligence gathering ships. I aim for them around 20,000 to 25,000 tons. Using a singular large low powered engine with thermal output reduction tech, throw in cloaking tech and keep armor to only 1 or 2 layers (Maybe a few layers more at much higher armor tech).

Main important chunk of the design is taken up my ELINT, Thermal and EM sensors. Missile wise the range of the missiles is very much based around the passive detection range of the intelligence ship normally at least 140 million KM and beyond, of course the missiles have their own sensors for actually being able to detect and home in on targets, and are more based around speed and range than sheer damage as I use reloadable launchers over box launchers  so can fire repeated loads.

Hopefully once we get 1.12 and ELINT EM sensor functionality actually works properly I'll no longer need to double stacking ELINT on top of EM sensors, which should allow for more ELINT and thermals and some additional launchers. Currently I tend to bring 5 or 6 launchers on the design, would be nice to have more.
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Offline Arwyn

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2020, 12:53:45 PM »
Quote from: Arwyn link=topic=11935. msg141269#msg141269 date=1601782116
I have built something similar before.

In a previous VB6 game I had some small, stealthy ships with big passive sensors and box launchers.  The job was to sneak in slowly (via the set speed) pick up the baddies and then barf a wall of thermal seekers at said baddies.  I got some truly spectacular kills catching enemy fleets in orbit with shields down.

Going slower than max speed really drops your signature.

I did this since I was at a major tech disadvantage and was using these as cheap mobile mines to slow the NPR roll on my systems.  These ships, along with a veritable buttload of mines did a yeoman job of catching the NPRs with their virtual pants down several times. 

If they got spotted, they died horribly though.

So, they were small, with big passive sensors, NO active sensors (weight saved), no beams, no CIWS, no shields.  Just big thermally reduced engines, long deployment times and spare parts, and a load of box launchers with thermal seeking missiles.  Shot the missiles at waypoints and let the thermal seekers do their thing.  Light armor too, they were moderately cheap (except the big passive sensors) so they were like Doritos, if they got crunched, I just made more.  I was making 8 every 2 years.

Do you remember how big you made the subs? was it sub 5000ton? also did you have powerful thermal tech? What were the missiles/torpedoes like? You did not put any cloaking tech on them other then thermal damping on the engines and driving slow?

Sorry for the flurry of questions but its really cool to see someone actually try and be successful with this strategy.

They were sub 12,000 tons, and yes thermal reduction and thermal sensor tech was pretty high. Thermal seeking missiles are not really viable until the seeker heads can get out a couple of hundred thousand klicks. Much like torpedos, they were big warheads, moderate speed, big sensors, and long range. I ran one or two engines on them, and the engines were built for efficiency, not speed.

I was using these as low tech space subs. No cloaking on them, just thermal masking. They really werent built to be "warships". Armor was only around 2 I think. They were slow, steady and meant to sit in systems along the alien NPR's axis of advance. Once they got into a good position, they ambushed the aliens and then faded away. Since I never used active sensors, they were really hard to spot.

In a couple of systems I had "tenders" which were very small bases way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in the system that could reload the box launchers a few times and provide spare parts and fuel. Otherwise, once the "subs' had spent their box launchers, they snuck out the system and ran for a reload point.

I did have one other variant, which was a minelayer. Same principle, they would sit in a system along the aliens axis of advance and drop a ton of mines out of their box launchers, then sneak out. As I recall, the minelayers actually killed more ships. They had 30 mine pods, that dropped mines with three thermal seeking missiles. 90 missiles per minelayer. I had four of them dump on a warp point right before the alien fleet came through. Even with their tech advantage, 360 missiles while under transit shock was a hell of a surprise! :)
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2020, 05:25:32 PM »
I don't think cloaking ever really makes sense for stealth, because active sensors aren't how you get detected in the first place, passives are.  So what if your cloaking drastically reduces their active sensor range, they still know where you are thanks to your thermal signature.  And you'll never be able to get away if your engines were designed for low thermal signature.  Low signature usually means low power, in addition to thermal reduction.  Cloaking is good for ships that don't even try to hide, that use it just like a second layer of ECM.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 08:41:24 PM »
I don't think cloaking ever really makes sense for stealth, because active sensors aren't how you get detected in the first place, passives are.  So what if your cloaking drastically reduces their active sensor range, they still know where you are thanks to your thermal signature.  And you'll never be able to get away if your engines were designed for low thermal signature.  Low signature usually means low power, in addition to thermal reduction.  Cloaking is good for ships that don't even try to hide, that use it just like a second layer of ECM.

 - Well if the enemy knows your there, but doesn't know where you are, then cloaking can be useful. Especially if you have slow engines and can't easily run away.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2020, 10:26:18 PM »
idk, I just think if you're close enough for cloaking to matter, you're too close to hide from passives.  Maybe not if your cloak is very good and you come to a near-total stop so your thermal sig is in the single digits or something.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2020, 10:35:55 PM »
Cloaking reduces your TCS by a percentage. At the really high tech levels, this means a 100,000 Ton monster can appear to Actives a 1,000 ton FAC. The effective range of Active Sensors drops off really fast as you begin to deviate below the intended tonnage. As for the range to passives, small thermal sensors may well have a problem tracking a ship with decent thermal reduction moving even at say 800-900 km/s. With 35% reduction I got 4x 50 Ton 100% Power Magneto Plasma down to a Thermal Signature of just 2 moving at 900 km/s. Not super fast by any means, but if the enemy isn't right on top of you and doesn't yet have the range to put you on actives... well that may well be all you need to get out of the way.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2020, 01:38:16 AM »
I designed some time on target 2-stage cloaked warships in VB6 aurora.  Never used them because I had a boarding pod fleet, and time on target volleys tend to obliterate instead of cripple.

Theory was cloaked warships ~4,000 tons, as that was the smallest you could make a cloaked warship for a variety of tech levels.  The idea was that it could outrange anything that could target it.  It wouldn't be able to hit small targets.  They were designed to be fast, short endurance parasite craft, whose 1st stage missiles matched their speed so they could close with the enemy and fire from a single fast launcher and all the missiles would arrive at once.  Unlike a box launcher, it could spread the missiles between several targets this way.

One of the things I use my fast active sensor scouts for is to draw the enemy mobile fleet away from their base.  As my fleet strategy revolved around draining their missiles and then shooting the empties with beam ships, I needed to make sure they could not easily resupply.

The doctrine I worked up but never used was that they would be for colonial defense, where I would not expect to be able to hold the battlespace, so I would be shooting to kill not to cripple, and I wanted the ability to inflict damage with inferior numbers.  Stealth is a relative thing.  If you have a 500 million km missile range against large targets, all you need is to be able to be stealthy enough not to be targetable at, say, 200 million km, and enough speed to draw the enemy fleet uncomfortably far from their base.  Of course, long ranged missiles are expensive in terms of BP per damage done, and in terms of magazine space per damage, and going after HtK soaks like freighters would be an expensive way to run a war.

My fleet evolution started with missile FACs, which exploited the known enemy's active sensors/fire controls, I knew I would have a range advantage even though I was lower tech at the time.  I wanted the ability to maintain that relative range advantage, but single stage missile ranges tend to go down as tech increases because of improvements in engine boost technology.  While active sensor and fire control ranges greatly increased.  A cloaked missile ship could have a much larger fire control, but that wouldn't do it any good if the strike phase of the missile couldn't penetrate defenses.

And while I thought they would be effective, they were logistically expensive and tended to kill ships I would otherwise be able to capture, so it didn't fit in with my doctrine, and it was a bit of an abusive gimmick.

Because of the need for 10s of millions of km of approach to get the missiles out, it was a strictly long ranged sniper concept.  More like a strategic missile sub than something that hunted close in targets.
 

Offline Ektor

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2020, 07:06:54 PM »
I've always wanted to make designs like these but never got the chance to. To me it's one of the coolest design possibilites that Aurora gives.
 

Offline kilo

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Re: 'Submarines'
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2020, 02:38:59 PM »
Not one of you has posted a design of their submarine and their doctrine. This means I have to give it a go:

I am currently playing a 1.12 play through with a significantly reduced research rate. This is why I decided to reuse as many components as possible and building a vessel without too many purpose built and cheap parts. The submarines need to be expendable after all, as they might run into gate camps, eh JP camps. Picking the right type of munitions was a bit tricky as well as it needed to be cheap and light on logistics. This is why I chose hangar decks over missile launchers.

Grarag class Light Carrier      4,385 tons       96 Crew       477.4 BP       TCS 88    TH 100    EM 0
1140 km/s      Armour 1-23       Shields 0-0       HTK 29      Sensors 80/80/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 0
Maint Life 7.59 Years     MSP 408    AFR 26%    IFR 0.4%    1YR 12    5YR 187    Max Repair 100 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 1,000 tons     
Captain    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 72 months    Flight Crew Berths 20    Morale Check Required   

Amon Engines Limited Commercial Magneto-plasma Drive  EP100.00 (1)    Power 100    Fuel Use 1.19%    Signature 100    Explosion 2%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 346.1 billion km (3513 days at full power)

Vash-Curze EM-Sensor EM10-80 (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70.7m km
Octavian & Eisenhorn Electronics Industries Thermal Sensor TH10-80 (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70.7m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

And the cheap "munitions":

Varg class Raider      481 tons       14 Crew       34.2 BP       TCS 10    TH 40    EM 0
4119 km/s      Armour 1-5       Shields 0-0       HTK 3      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 3
Maint Life 7.35 Years     MSP 11    AFR 7%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 10.8900 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Cain & Alexander Raider MPD EP39.60 (1)    Power 39.6    Fuel Use 16.72%    Signature 39.60    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 2,000 Litres    Range 4.5 billion km (12 days at full power)

Tiberius-Alaric BL 4"/L10 Railgun (1x4)    Range 10,000km     TS: 4,119 km/s     Power 3-1     RM 10,000 km    ROF 15       
Darius-Domitian Raider Fire Control R13-TS4000 (1)     Max Range: 12,800 km   TS: 4,000 km/s     22 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Tiberius-Alaric Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor R1 (1)     Total Power Output 1    Exp 5%

Florian & Vulkan Raider Active Search Sensor (1)     GPS 16     Range 4.3m km    Resolution 10

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction


EDIT:

I have build 4 of those beauties now and a few raiders and I have quite some experience in using them now, but there are a few weaknesses of this design. The largest drawback is the lack of a jump drive right now. They would have been significantly more capable if they were not dependent on a jump-capable support ship. At the same time, these are still quite prohibitive in size, as my jump drive tech is 4 or 5. The installation of a jump drive would increase the displacement to >6000 tons, which is more than my free shipyards can handle, while the speed and range would drop by almost 1/3rd.
The ships engine is bad as well. It is the same engine small ships like the survey cruisers are using right now. It is perfectly adequate for that job, but an engine for subs should use thermal reduction tech. This could be helpful for survey cruisers as well and 50% thermal reduction is pretty cheap after all.

The raider itself is pretty good and fast enough to intercept civilian vessels reliably. They move at speeds around 1500 km/s and it is about 2.5 times as fast. Using a C1 & R1 weapon was a good idea. Any weapon that can be fired upon the enemy is good enough to hurt enemy civilian shipping, but a cheap weapon requires less spare part per misfire. This makes the weapon and for that reason the raider cheaper to build and maintain.
Choosing a railgun was a bad idea though. They require a long time to kill big civilian ships due to their inability to cause internal damage against ships with 1 layer of armor. Lasers will cause 2 points of guaranteed internal damage per shot and raw DPM is not very important in these kinds of engagements. If you have a cheap laser at your hands and some spare Corrundium go for a 10cm C1/R1 laser. Sadly, I have neither right now.

My submarine doctrine:
These vessels are highly specialized and highly limited in what they can do. Power projection in the inner parts of the solar system is NOT one of these things. The moment you end on a sensor screen the ship is in trouble, which is why civilian mining centers or colonies are not your friends. These can and will house DSTs.
Find yourself a nice shipping lane between two JPs or a JP and some planet(s) and sit next to the line connecting these points and lay in wait. Strike only at targets of opportunity and stay away from JPs and orbital bodies whenever possible. Last but not least: If a ship moves at >2k km/s or has a sensor of > 1000 GPS do not investigate it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 07:28:20 AM by kilo »