Aurora 4x

C# Aurora => Development Discussions => Topic started by: Steve Walmsley on February 11, 2018, 07:13:30 AM

Title: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 11, 2018, 07:13:30 AM
This is a repost from the main VB6 suggestions thread, which triggered an idea.

I could remove the concept of teams entirely and replace them with new ground force capabilities. Thinking out loud....

1) Espionage team replaced by a scout function for ground forces. Scout formations can land on alien worlds to learn about the alien population (size, industry, tech, ground forces). They are have (expensive) stealth capabilities boosted by the formation commander (stealth bonus replaces espionage). They can be hunted by hostile ground forces or have a chance of detection by any civilian population (much higher if not same species). Might even have sabotage capabilities. In fact, this could be the Aurora equivalent of Special Forces.

2) Geology team replaced by geological survey capability for ground forces and ground survey becomes a significantly larger task requiring more personnel - to prevent simply creating vast number of geo-survey formations. Geology bonus based on the formation commander

3) Xenology team replaced by Xenoarchaeology capability for ground forces. Surveying and deciphering alien ruins becomes a significantly larger task requiring more personnel. Xenology bonus based on the formation commander.

4) Diplomacy team replaced by small but expensive ship module that can only function when in the same system as an alien population. I also change NPR responses so that their reaction to alien ships in the system is based on ship size and reduced if the ship has a diplomatic function. Diplomacy skill is based on the ship commander.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: dukea42 on February 11, 2018, 08:28:42 AM
I like the idea a lot.   It would add some further value and excitement to stealth ships to try to land a team on to a planet.   If it was just passives to worry about, then it's easy to have a small ship wait in orbit path of a planet to get scooped up.

Even though new active sensors are reduced in range, if actives are on ( an R1) it is impossible to get any size ship past them.   Will stealth tech and bonuses be able to get to a size 0 (undetectable) ship? Or at least to the point a sufficiently fast ship can close the range to drop a pod (and then hopefully flee again).

Also will diplomacy functions required being detected by the other side?
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Zincat on February 11, 2018, 09:14:39 AM
I like the idea of doing away with teams, they never made much sense in the setting. You certainly need a lot more than 5 people for all of those tasks.  I have one single reservation regarding ground-based geological survey.


I was one of the people who would do ground-based geological survey of everything. Every single small moon even in 15 planet systems. And also, by actually moving the teams with ships, each and every single time. The micromanagement was immense, but I still did it.

Regarding ground-based geological survey, the process would now require troops. I'm fine with that, IF the process is not completely "random", so to speak. This could be done in two different ways.

Possibility number one, after a geo survey from orbit we could have an indicator of how likely we are to find more minerals. For example, we could know that Mars is "likely to have more" TN minerals, while venus would be "extremely unlikely" to have more. This would indicate the chances, once we do a ground-base geo survey, to find more minerals. This is how things work in real life by the way, mining company never go in "blind", it is possible to have an idea of how likely you are to find minerals.
Roleplay extract: "our studies have noticed these minerals but due to the morphology of the planet it is highly likely that a more detailed survey might find additional deposits". A perfectly reasonable gameplay compromise in my opinion

Possibility number two, we go in "blind", but the chance to find something and the amount of what we find is proportional to either how big the planet is, or how many minerals we have already, or a combination of the two. So surveying a huge planet and /or a planet with a lot of TN minerals already present is more likely to yield additional minerals, and in larger amount.


The point is, while I am ok with the process being a bit random, we should at least be able to optimize our chances to find things and/or to choose the most likely to be valuable targets first. Not like it is right now, an almost completely random situation where every  midsized moon can spawn 150 millions duranium and there is no way to tell beforehand where to start from, so every single celestial body has the same priority.



Likewise, both for ground-based geological survey and xenological survey, the time of the process should be less random, and more dependind on planet size / xeno installation size or tech level. Right now it's really too random.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: jonw on February 11, 2018, 09:35:55 AM
Yeah, this seems like a solid idea. The concept of stealth insertion of scout forces is really cool, combining this with a sabotage feature would be nice. Actually needing survey units on the physical planet would negate one of the most egregious exploits as well
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: sloanjh on February 11, 2018, 09:56:52 AM
This is a repost from the main VB6 suggestions thread, which triggered an idea.

Is this idea to: A) make it easier to code things up, B) improve game mechanics consistency, or C) improve gameplay experience?

I suspect it's mostly A+B, with some C thrown in.  In particular, it solves the problem of magically teleporting teams.

On the "A" front (with some "B" thrown in), it feels like you've identified more unit capabilities that can be handled using the same mechanism as e.g. anti-armor or anti-orbital (I haven't been playing close attention to the details of the ground combat stuff, so I probably got the names wrong).  A nice thing about this is it allows for hybrid units with an intrinsic ground combat capability, e.g. a Xeno force that has both xeno capabilities and ground combat capabilities in case they dig up something nasty or pirates decide to raid them. 

This hybrid ground unit idea leads me to suggest having an "Embassy" unit for diplomacy, which can be emplaced on an alien world (rather than just being in a ship in orbit) - the combat component would be the equivalent of the Marine guards at a US embassy.  Note this is not intended to replace the diplomacy ship, rather it's an alternate mechanism analogous to orbital vs. ground terraformers.

The next coding/mechanics idea this leads to is that there seems to be a "ICommandable" abstraction; things that implement ICommandable can have a commander attached that applies bonuses.  I can think of colonies, ships, research complexes, and military units as the existing ICommandables at this moment.  One thing that stands out in this list is that a research complex is a facility, while a colony owns multiple facilities (multiple scientists working on different projects, factories, etc.).  This seems like a little bit of an inconsistency in level of detail.  So the questions here are "do you need to think some more about how leaders interact with the production capabilities of colonies (possibly by introducing "ministers" who are analogous to staff officers on ships)" and "Are there other things in Aurora that should implement ICommandable?". 

Another question: "Are there other capabilities out there that ground units should be able to fulfill?" (which presumable would be boostable by commander abilities).

If one carried this reasoning to an extreme, factory complexes and research labs would be just another form of ground unit.  I do NOT think this is a good idea, however - I think designing such installations would add to micro-management (and possibly code complexity) without a commensurate increase in gameplay, and would probably delay the Aurora release.  It might be fruitful, however to think about facilities as "canned" ground units that have non-editable OOB and are very difficult to move.  To a certain extent, this would bring things full circle back to PDCs, but with them being facilities (like a factory or research lab) that have anti-orbit capabilities rather then ships that are stuck on the ground (which is where I think the special-case-code problems came in with their first incarnation).  As I said, I wasn't paying close attention, but it seems like there were some "doesn't quite fit" issues with anti-orbital static ground units that might be solved through the introduction of "fortification" facilities. 

Taking this even further might lead to "terrain" abstractions for ground combat, where facilities have units explicitly defending them.  The facilities would be clusterable (into cities) so that one unit could defend several facilities, but there would presumably be some efficiency penalty to encourage spreading them out to allow the possibility of defeat in detail (for example mineral deposit hotpoints that mines would be built on, and/or population hotpoints where people would want to live).

Note:  none of the above is intended to say "I think you should do a major rewrite to xxx", instead it's just some ideas on tweaks you might want to make in the current mechanism to take you closer to your new idea and/or avoid painting yourself into a corner in the code if you want to go down one of these roads in the future.

On the "C" (gameplay) front: Overall, it seems a good solution to the instant teleportation problem, and from a fiction-driver side having a military component to a xeno site could lead to lots of richness (e.g. is the expedition commander scientific or military?  This brings up the question though:  "can scientists command a (military) ground unit?".) 

My main concern is to not introduce overly-burdensome mechanics into more parts of the game (e.g. the original maintenance/refit rules).  For example, it's probably not worth having a military component to an embassy, since whichever planet they're on should be able to overwhelm the military part easily.  The way it would make sense would be by sneaking stealth-equipped spies in as part of the military unit, but that starts to get you back into worrying about special-case situations for the stealth capability (which maybe should simply be "intel") or if there was a "low-level threat" abstraction that endangered the diplomats that required a security element to reduce.

John
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: the obelisk on February 11, 2018, 11:44:34 AM
I like the idea of new ground units with special capabilities, especially ones that can preform some kind of scouting role (which, depending on how that works, could be used as a way to target enemy units with support units/orbital barrages using the forward firing control while both sides still keep their combat units on defense (AFAIR that was still something that hadn't gotten resolved but maybe I'm misremembering).   I'm not sure that such a unit should also be what you use to preform espionage, though, since the two are fairly different.   I'm also not sure how I feel about having diplomatic modules for ships, but I feel like they certainly shouldn't simply REPLACE having a group of diplomats on the surface.   I can definitely get behind the xenoarchaeology units.

Also, I'm interested in sloanjh's suggestion of giving Civilian Administrators some kind of analogue to the new ship officer roles.   I imagine that like with ship officer roles, what's available would depend on what's on the planet, either through building special facilities, or a system that revolves around the size of the population and amount/presence of various facilities.   For example, you might have a position dedicated to terraforming, but you'd only be able to assign someone to that position in locations that either
A: have some kind of special office built
or
B: have terraformers

sloanjh also does bring up a good question in terms of whether or not we're still going to be able to use leaders who aren't ground officers when it comes to xeno-archaeology.   On the plus side though, if the initial investigation of the ruins is now preformed by ground units with some kind of special equipment, you might also be able to just use them for recovering the installations after the investigation is complete.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Barkhorn on February 11, 2018, 11:52:07 AM
As long as we're talking about teams, I'd like to suggest that we consider ways to ease some of the team transfer micromanagement.  I think a big reason that people teleport geosurvey teams around is just because it's such a hassle to manually load them in a shuttle, ferry them to the next survey target, and then unload them again.

I would really appreciate if there were some kind of conditional order that could be used to automate this process.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Bremen on February 11, 2018, 02:09:49 PM
I'm going to be the odd man out and argue in favor of streamlining.

I'm in favor of removing teams for that reason; it's really its own system and folding the functions into other stuff will help streamline the game without taking away any of the complexity we love Aurora for.

However, and if I'm the vast minority on this I'm perfectly happy with getting ignored, I'd argue for removing geosurvey teams/stuff beyond the initial survey entirely. I never really saw the point besides additional micromanagement, to be honest; it doesn't really add much to be able to go around after the initial survey and do something that effectively costs nothing except player effort to unlock more minerals. It seems like it would just avoid make-work if you found all the mineral deposits straight up. However, I just react to that by not using geosurvey teams, so it's not a dealbreaker for me. Another alternative might be to just have civilian populations have a chance to uncover new mineral deposits (to a limit, of course, so Earth isn't still finding new deposits 200 years into a game); that provides a benefit to setting up a full colony instead of just automated mines.

Xenoarchaeology by troops instead of teams sounds good, though on the streamlining note could it be one unit type for both discovery and excavation? That way you'd send a unit in to identify the ruins, and once it was identified they'd start excavating and you could send in more units as well to excavate faster. That might be what you meant, I wasn't quite sure from your post.

Diplomacy ships sound like a big improvement, and open up a lot of interesting options as well.

Espionage troops sound like the trickiest to implement, but I guess if you'd like to add special forces options they might as well be combined. The new ground combat system seems like it could really benefit from some way to gain intelligence on enemy group troops anyways.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Iranon on February 11, 2018, 03:22:25 PM
Don't like teams as they are, too little depth to them - mostly mindless busywork that doesn't lend itself to automation.
Expanding the concept to be meaningful seems fine, but so does straightforward deletion.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Titanian on February 11, 2018, 05:24:55 PM
Is there any reason for the proposed change? Any advantages you hope to gain? Deeper game-play? Easier to handle?

My general opinion:
1) Espionage:  Current problems: Can be created anywhere. If their creation was restricted to own populations, this would not help much. i) If you have trade access to another empire, you could still smuggle them in on a freighter, so still rather easy. ii) If you have no trade access, you would need to find some undefended small 'colony' (single DSTS is enough I guess) and drop the team there - once the team is there, it is safe and can work with full efficiency from that remote location...
If espionage teams were to become troops, i) would become difficult, as nobody sane would allow a troop transport (or non-freighter) access their worlds without being suspicious. ii) would become more difficult as the team would not be safe any more after landing due to the detection chance. I guess keeping teams with the team creation restriction is the best solution here. Otherwise the espionage system in general would have to be change (maybe not a bad idea, see below).

2) Geology: Current problems: They provide benefits without costing anything (encourages their use) but are VERY micromanagement intensive. Restricting their creation to own colonies would make this worse. Automatic team relocation orders would help though. But the game-play benefit of having the teams in the game at all would still be questionable. Changing teams to ground forces here would not change a thing here, except for making teams cost maintenance. If the amount was meaningful, that would at least make their use a niche for the desperate.

3) Would probably be fine either way. Ruin are rare enough that moving or creating the teams is no big annoyance. The construction troops have to be moved anyway, so moving additional ground units would be no big difference.

4) This looks like a good idea in general. Probably limit it to the ship being at the same position as the population, otherwise empires still get influenced by ships they don't even know are there. Problem cases: Why do I need a ship to conduct diplomacy between empires sharing a planet or even capital planet? And it might become difficult to increase relation to an empire that shoots your diplomatic ship on sight.


In general, I guess discussing whether the tasks teams do currently are worth keeping in a similar way as they are now is the right way to go, or whether finding completely different systems is better.

General ideas:
1) Espionage: i) Current system is easy to game: Just create lots of empty ship class designs, and enemy espionage teams mostly get useless information anyway. The same problem appears with the civilian ship designs, 8 designs per company and tech level are in many cases more that I design myself, assuming at least 3 shipping lines. ii) On the other hand, it is currently impossible to gain even very basic information, like rough population or industry estimates. Or whether the ship at the same position has big gun turrets or not. On the other hand, information on the most important tech can be gained easily from design names of civilian ships, or their speeds. iii) Refitting ships completely screws tactical information as ships don't get reclassified.
My recommendation: Make clear what kind of information can be gained in which ways. Some ideas: Rough population estimates? Simply detecting the population. Invading the country. Building reconnaissance satellites. Detailed information on enemy ground forces opposing you? Scout ground units infiltrating enemy territory. Low morale in enemy army (deserters) Ship class or tech info? Observing their construction. Seeing them in action (as of now). Being close for some time. Boarding (again a ground unit). Salvaging (currently requires me to note salvaged components manually in many cases). Infiltrating design/research staff (Team?). To me it seems whether a ground unit or a team or whatever is better for the task depends entirely on what they are meant to achive.

2) Geology: What is the system meant to add to the game? Pleasant surprises after a system has long been colonized? Make it random and either easy to automate or based directly on population activity or size. Or give hints and make it a larger investment so a meaningful choice can be made by the player. Maybe even make it a research project, like 'Investigate Mars', 1000RP.

4) Diplomacy: You mentioned that diplomacy is going to get an overhaul. If yes: How is this going to look like? What impact are teams meant to have? The current model of  'if you have no team assigned, they are going to kill you no matter what you do' is too basic that talking about special ship modules can improve it. If the new system features embassies, why not also have mobile ship based ones? If we assume FTL communication to anywhere, basic diplomacy could be possible without any special hardware. Maybe we need small shuttles to transport diplomats to conferences?
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: ardem on February 11, 2018, 06:46:12 PM
The biggest issue I have with espionage is the fact, you cannot land them on a planet without being seen, an active sensor or thermal sensor on a planet will pick even the stealthy fighter out. Unless you can get a combat formation onto the ground, a scout team is useless.

I think you either need to simulate an insert just like sending a team to a planet, or enhance stealth that allows you to put a small team on a planet, or a commercial freighter. I personally would love to see a scout team in the mix but you need to have an ability to insert that is more than a slim chance of success.

Geology I would like to see teams stripped out, even units. I think if you land Mines on the planet, it should automatically have a small survey team look for new resources, just like private enterprise, and then after a period of time, possibly linked to the amount of mines it jsut comes up with survey complete. I think there is no need for teams or special units or micro management here, also the governor bonus can be included so you can keep that, maybe it governor bonus is about policy. Hey look at earth we have had technically 100 years of real searching and we still find deposits.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Zincat on February 11, 2018, 06:58:16 PM
The problem with an espionage team is that it's frankly hardly realistic as it is now. If you are in a "cold war" situation with the tentacle heads of alpha centauri, how are you going to infiltrate them?

There is no trade and no realistic way to send a team, unless you send a ship in orbit and that ship endures STO weapons long enough to drop off people.

From a realistic point of view, it makes no sense because unless you send a warship you have no way to send people there. It's not like human or whatever can just pretend to be tentalce heads.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: ardem on February 11, 2018, 07:12:51 PM
I am reading a book at the moment that has real unique way of insertions for SOCOM teams. Frontlines series are really great read,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Kloos


They fire individual missile pods at the planet and the team inserts itself, now since these pods carry only one person they are smaller then even a Mk 1 Missile, you should be able to send it a small detachment for Special Operations, if you can research some ground stealth tech as well, such as optimal camouflage, thermal dampening. You should be able to deploy a team that could stay onsite for more then a year.

The downside is how do you extract them. Other books talk about Stealth shuttles 50 to 100 tons, but it using terrain features like orbiting moons or the planet rotation, no burn and glide to help in extraction. I would love to see this aspect but you would need to change the principles about the current thermal and active sensors since they pick up Size 1 missiles. Maybe you could extract some of this.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: the obelisk on February 11, 2018, 07:19:34 PM
I think the issue with having what would effectively be some kind of ship based embassy is that from an RP perspective there just doesn't seem to be any real reason why you wouldn't just set up an embassy on the planet.

Also, if we're talking about the instant teleportation of leaders being an issue, that can happen with more than just teams.   Naval officers can be teleported onto ships, ground officers can be teleported to ground units, and civilian administrators and researchers can both be teleported to far flung colonies.

Having thought about it for a bit, I think I'd rather see the team system expanded than done away with, if it's at all possible.   Mostly what I'm thinking is that it might be a good idea to make it so that teams are attached to specific things, such as a xenoarchaeology team being attached to a ground unit with xenoarchaeology capabilities.

As far as what ardem suggested, having some kind of stealth drop ship component seems like a reasonable way to handle the insertion of any ground unit you don't want an empire knowing about (though I maintain there shouldn't just be one catch all component for ground units that make them into some kind of recon/espionage/saboteur/special forces combo).
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Seolferwulf on February 11, 2018, 07:23:06 PM
Replacing teams with ground forces sounds good.
Makes the game mechanics more consistent and eliminates an exploit.
I second the suggestion to add another order for geo. team ground forces to completely automate surveys.
A ship with this new conditional order could simply wait at a colony until a geo. ground unit is done surveying, fly there and then drop them off somewhere else.

For espionage you need some way to infiltrate their colonies and home planet.
I could imagine a stealthy ship getting close enough to an enemy ship without being noticed to drop off some special forces, which then hide as stowaways until they get to a colony.
Once there they start their infiltration on their own.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: ardem on February 11, 2018, 08:00:37 PM
I agree one special force should not fit all. I think there a couple of options like we currently see in our armed forces.

A number of 4-6 man teams doing recon. This is like SEAL, SAS, LRRP. This brings back ground and facility force information. These are for long stays, 1-2 years before they need to be pulled out or identified.

A Battalion group for a Raid, such as Rangers, Commandos. These destroy facilities, theft at a research plant, and normally used before an initial assault, or just add some spice raid a listening post and gather Ship Intel. Short Stays.

Another thing I like to see with smaller ships talking about recon, is a stealth ship that can attach itself to an asteroid, but continue with passive sensors and become virtual undetectable except for say an orbit of that asteroid. It would mean the introduction of in system patrol craft if you like that make it way around the system.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Person012345 on February 11, 2018, 08:04:54 PM
From a realistic point of view, it makes no sense because unless you send a warship you have no way to send people there. It's not like human or whatever can just pretend to be tentalce heads.
Lucky for the tentacle heads that  there has never been an example of collaboration I guess?

There are many options for disguising, in a sci fi universe, and this wouldn't even be necessary because on a world with millions or billions of intelligent life forms, chances are at least a few will sympathize with outside causes.

It certainly fits less with a military unit than a infiltration "team", but realism isn't necessarily the #1 concern (and they'd be hiding anyway).
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Zincat on February 12, 2018, 01:32:53 AM
Lucky for the tentacle heads that  there has never been an example of collaboration I guess?

There are many options for disguising, in a sci fi universe, and this wouldn't even be necessary because on a world with millions or billions of intelligent life forms, chances are at least a few will sympathize with outside causes.

It certainly fits less with a military unit than a infiltration "team", but realism isn't necessarily the #1 concern (and they'd be hiding anyway).

I feel that we're going off a tangent here, comparing to the basics premises of the thread  ;D

Anyway, I disagree. The more high tech the setting, the less realistic a "team of strange aliens spies on a foreign planet" works. It's not easy at all staying hidden! And how are they going to find food or other supplies?

And most importantly, just HOW are they going to communicate back to base? Extraction is not realistic, there's no trade, radio transmissions would get intercepted which would lead to the team being captured. There is no realistic way I can think of that a team on an alien world could use to communicate back to the home planet without getting caught. We're talking on extra-system communications here, from a ground-based team with no access to space means. Short of psionics or other paranormal things, there is just NO possible way.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: alex_brunius on February 12, 2018, 03:09:53 AM
This is a repost from the main VB6 suggestions thread, which triggered an idea.

I could remove the concept of teams entirely and replace them with new ground force capabilities. Thinking out loud....

1) Espionage team replaced by a scout function for ground forces. Scout formations can land on alien worlds to learn about the alien population (size, industry, tech, ground forces). They are have (expensive) stealth capabilities boosted by the formation commander (stealth bonus replaces espionage). They can be hunted by hostile ground forces or have a chance of detection by any civilian population (much higher if not same species). Might even have sabotage capabilities. In fact, this could be the Aurora equivalent of Special Forces.

2) Geology team replaced by geological survey capability for ground forces and ground survey becomes a significantly larger task requiring more personnel - to prevent simply creating vast number of geo-survey formations. Geology bonus based on the formation commander

3) Xenology team replaced by Xenoarchaeology capability for ground forces. Surveying and deciphering alien ruins becomes a significantly larger task requiring more personnel. Xenology bonus based on the formation commander.

4) Diplomacy team replaced by small but expensive ship module that can only function when in the same system as an alien population. I also change NPR responses so that their reaction to alien ships in the system is based on ship size and reduced if the ship has a diplomatic function. Diplomacy skill is based on the ship commander.

Spontaneously the only reason against doing it I can think of is that it was a pretty neat story tool to group together teams of your key characters and have things happen to them as they brave alien or hostile worlds.


For Geology and Xenology it makes alot of sense to expand it to bigger efforts, and this can be really cool as well as they get better integrated with built in defense attachments ( ground forces rework ).


For Diplomacy and Espionage I agree that it doesn't make sense to have a big effort, a small team of individuals or led by a single commander could work equally well.

Does Espionage even need to land on the ground though? Wouldn't most intelligence/espionage be done through signal intelligence realistically, and isn't this something your survey ships (equipped with powerful sensors and scanners) should be pretty well geared to do already? Sticking with a ground team we run into a boatload of issues how to sneak in a ground unit transport past size 1 senors (basically impossible), and what good is spending time developing a feature that never will be possible to put to use?

I also love the Sci-Fi Startrek vision of having diplomatic envoys / meetings onboard large warships.


Maybe both Diplomacy and Espionage could be ship modules used in-system instead? And depending on the size of sensors Espionage ships would need to sneak close enough to the enemy world to start gathering information. I think this role of focusing Espionage on signal intelligence gathering ( both from enemy populations and their warships/stations ) would be much better suited for Aurora 4X gameplay then teams of James Bond style alien agents operating on the ground with no way of getting there in the first place, no way of communicating and no way of getting out.

Maybe there is some way to make this work neatly with the new command and control modules? ( Add a SIGINT/Espionage module and one for Diplomacy which enables the ship to conduct respective missions at the efficiency of assigned commanders ).
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 12, 2018, 03:20:57 AM
Maybe both Diplomacy and Espionage could be ship modules used in-system instead? And depending on the size of sensors Espionage ships would need to sneak close enough to the enemy world to start gathering information. I think this role of focusing Espionage on signal intelligence gathering ( both from enemy populations and their warships/stations ) would be much better suited for Aurora 4X gameplay then teams of James Bond style alien agents operating on the ground with no way of getting there in the first place, no way of communicating and no way of getting out.

Maybe there is some way to make this work neatly with the new command and control modules? ( Add a SIGINT/Espionage module and one for Diplomacy which enables the ship to conduct respective missions at the efficiency of assigned commanders ).

Yes, that is a good idea. I was also wondering how to get the proposed scout team to the surface undetected :)

Making espionage a ship-based system (Russian Trawler) solves that problem. In early versions of Aurora you could learn tech from scanning alien ships with active sensors and that was removed as being too powerful (and because it made active sensors extremely provocative). A more focused, expensive module intended for signals intelligence would be a better option, especially as potential tech gains would be a minor and rare part of that. It would mainly be about establishing knowledge about population, ground force and ship capabilities (without necessarily being able to duplicate those capabilities).

The new sensor array could be a designed system, allowing a separate tech line plus variable size and effective range.

Perhaps Diplomacy could be handled both via ship and some form of ground installation (Embassy).
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Iranon on February 12, 2018, 03:55:27 AM
For tech acquisition, one problem with something ship- and sensor-based is balancing it with the salvage system...
no amount of scans should be as useful as having a functioning sample that you can test to your heart's content.
"Human" intelligence being more useful than a functioning sample is plausible - blueprints, insight into underlying principles or manufacturing process that aren't obvious in the final product etc.

I think it would also be interesting if it was possible to reverse engineer alien equipment without gaining all the underlying techs, maybe with the chance of the clone being something slightly different. That'd make spoils/relics of a more advanced faction very useful without allowing the beneficiary to equalise effortlessly.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Hazard on February 12, 2018, 04:50:22 AM
The new sensor array could be a designed system, allowing a separate tech line plus variable size and effective range.

Tie it to the passive sensors mechanics instead; you need to close a certain amount of distance relative to the max range of the passive sensor for a (to be determined) amount of signal strength to meet thresholds for how good your data is and how fast you get it (very long range scanning gets you very rough estimates very slowly, while close in scanning gets you very good information very quickly).

Use thermal passive sensors for information on industrial outputs like mining and construction and maybe some estimate of population size, and electronic passive sensors for everything else.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: alex_brunius on February 12, 2018, 06:15:35 AM
Tie it to the passive sensors mechanics instead; you need to close a certain amount of distance relative to the max range of the passive sensor for a (to be determined) amount of signal strength to meet thresholds for how good your data is and how fast you get it (very long range scanning gets you very rough estimates very slowly, while close in scanning gets you very good information very quickly).

Use thermal passive sensors for information on industrial outputs like mining and construction and maybe some estimate of population size, and electronic passive sensors for everything else.

Well SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) we need to separate between communications and non communications. COMINT entails listening in on the enemy communications to learn their secrets rather then simply scanning their ships or the analyzing emissions from ship systems (ELINT). This means you also need to have translated their language and (if sensitive information) also cracked their encryption/codes.


For the other sensors currently we got for example the following Intelligence already in VB6:

Active GRAV: Target Size, Target Speed, Target Direction
Passive GRAV: Emissions from shields or Active GRAV. Emissions from population.
Passive TH: Emissions from engines. Emissions from population.


Perhaps this could be expanded by saying that if you get good enough sensors to be X times better then what you need for them to show up on sensors you learn more ( potentially in multiple tiers ), and this would naturally also require much longer observation times then 5 seconds.

For example something like this:

Active GRAV > 10 times: Target Type (Military/Civilian), Target mission ( main tonnage is Carrier/Sensor/Missile Warship/Beam Warship/Logistics/Colony/Terraform/Salvage )
Passive GRAV > 10 times: Shield Strength or Active GRAV sensor strength & resolution. More details from population.
Passive TH  > 10 times: Match signature from engines (can determine based on previous salvaged/detail scanned). More details from population.

Active GRAV > 100 times: External systems count & type ( X launchers, Y turrets, Z engines ... )
Passive GRAV > 100 times: Full shield design details or Full Active GRAV sensor design details. Most details from population.
Passive TH  > 100 times: Full Engine design details. Most details from population.

Active GRAV > 1000 times: Full Weapons design details

*With "Full design details" I mean the knowledge of the design, not the tech to produce it yourself.


This information would automatically be added to appropriate intelligence tabs.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: FrederickAlexander on February 12, 2018, 08:08:01 AM
The Idea of having special forces other then environment based excites me greatly, perhaps as an active espionage team where they do missions that increase attackers attack/hitchance. I do also like the idea of sabotage as well, however if you do feel the need to keep it out I can make do.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: QuakeIV on February 12, 2018, 10:29:25 AM
I really like the idea of garnering more info from sensor data.  Also it would be really neat if spy teams could confirm the technical details of the hulls of various ships.  In general, information gathering and fighting the enemies ability to gather information on you is really critical to having a fun experience and is in general really cool.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: King-Salomon on February 12, 2018, 10:39:26 AM
Yes, that is a good idea. I was also wondering how to get the proposed scout team to the surface undetected :)

Making espionage a ship-based system (Russian Trawler) solves that problem. In early versions of Aurora you could learn tech from scanning alien ships with active sensors and that was removed as being too powerful (and because it made active sensors extremely provocative). A more focused, expensive module intended for signals intelligence would be a better option, especially as potential tech gains would be a minor and rare part of that. It would mainly be about establishing knowledge about population, ground force and ship capabilities (without necessarily being able to duplicate those capabilities).

The new sensor array could be a designed system, allowing a separate tech line plus variable size and effective range.

Perhaps Diplomacy could be handled both via ship and some form of ground installation (Embassy).

As I wrote in the original suggestion: I am a fan of the new ship modules which allow multiple officers on a ship - so I really like the ship-based system for espionage & Diplomatie :)

What I am thinking is: in C# we will have the new ship modules to get away from the "ship commander gives all the bonus - so I would suggest that the espionage-modul + diplo-modul would create a new officer-slot to whom the bonus is based on instead of the bonus being based on the ship commander (only)... especially IF it would be possible to let the diplo-modul create an ADMIN-slot instead of a naval slot so that the Ambassador could be a civilian instead of a military officer  (The ship captain is in charge of the ship, the Ambassador in charge of the diplomatic corps on board)

Espionage: with ship-based espionage there would be a new and plausible reason to invest in stealth tech for ships (and build them) to reduce the possibility to get caught.


I can see that a ground unit instead of the geological/xeno teams is the better solution.. so I am very much for it :) - only problem I see maybe with the geo-units is the point of micromanaging (Load Groundunit, fly to body XY, unload groundunit, wait till scan complete, load GU... etc pp)... an order which can help here to reduce micromanagement would be great :)

REALLY looking forward for C# :)

PS: about prisoner camps, maybe there is a point in getting some espionage ground unit also - as prisoner camp (guards) were the unit commander gives the bonus...  a ship-modul for espionage and a small ground unit for interrogation
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: the obelisk on February 12, 2018, 03:06:16 PM
As with diplomacy, I'm not a fan of simply replacing having something on the surface with a shipboard component (supplementing it is another matter).   If the main issue is how to get spies onto a planet, that could be solved by giving some sort of reason to have ships occasionally visit an embassy (however embassies are done) and making it possible to drop off/pick up spies while that's occurring.   Maybe embassies require maintenance our something.

This wouldn't be something you could do for races you're at war with, but if ships do get specialized spy components then you won't be without options(and if spy sensors are active and can be detected, I imagine races you aren't at war with wouldn't be too happy with detecting spy sensor emissions in their systems).   If there's some kind of way to stealthily drop social forces/saboteur ground units, that could also be used to infiltrate spies.   If you're at war with the other race, you probably wouldn't be able to recover them until you have a normal ground force presence on the planet (or until relationships normalize and you set up an embassy), but if you're fighting a race with several decently sized colonies they could still prove useful (and this all assumes you don't share a planet with the race, which is sometimes the case).
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: MarcAFK on February 12, 2018, 03:28:09 PM
In real life your diplomats can generally be spies anyway for your side or for theirs, if you really want to spy on somebody it helps immensely to have good enough relations with them that they don't mind having an embassy right inside their capital. Of course they assign espionage assets watching or infiltrating that embassy, and you do the same to their embassy on your world.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 12, 2018, 04:04:32 PM
hmmmm...  There's value in removing possibly duplicated mechanics, but i am not sure about ground units filling all these functions...

There's not a lot particularly interesting about the ground units involved.  In practice, you'll churn out a few geo-units at the start of the game and then shuttle them around as necessary; same thing for xeno, except with a caveat of not doing it till you find some ruins.  It doesn't change anything on the ship design level; strategically you might start building troop transports earlier, but thats it.  It's unlikely your geo or xeno teams will ever get into any kind of fight or challenge. There are <spoilers>, but that isn't even a Team mechanic, but rather a recovery roll mechanic.

Conceptually there is also the difficulty that your geo teams are going to be examining places like tiny asteroids and comets, which is abstractable for a 'team' but a headscratcher for 'Science Truck Battalion 17'.

Scout units sound fine, though much like espionage teams, good luck ever using them outside a multi-earth start.

For my own games i usually RP using a science ship that remains in orbit when a geo or xeno team is conducting its work.  That would be extendable by having a 'Geology Lab' or 'Xenology Lab' which creates staff spots on a ship; then the lab-ship conducts the extended geo/xeno survey, rather than a team per se.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Garfunkel on February 12, 2018, 04:07:08 PM
SIGINT module for ships would be great. It can be little frustrating how little player can find out about enemy ships even in combat.

I can see a use for espionage teams still - if you do decide to create an embassy facility that can be sent to alien planets, then require that in place before an espionage team can be created. Their transport is handwaved as part of regular supply runs for the embassy and their hiding among aliens is easier to explain as cultural / trade envoys operating from the embassy. Make it available only during peace is a sensible limitation.

This facilitates both gameplay and storytelling: we'll have additional space options while keeping the option for James Bond style espionage as well. SIGINT can tell us that there are X facilities on a planet, HUMINT from the espionage team tells us that the facilities are building Y.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 12, 2018, 04:11:23 PM

If you want to do ground units though...*hmmm....*  Maybe they need an extended mechanic so they are cool?  You could have a matrix of challenges depending on the type of world being surveyed and attributes of the unit / unit leader could be checked/rolled against the challenges.  Failure could cause delays, materiel losses, or even the death of the formation leader.  So for example if you were surveying Mercury it might have the tags EXTREME HEAT, VACUUM.  Earth might have LARGE HYDROSPHERE, COMPLEX LIFE, MILD VOLCANISM, OXYGENATED.  A trojan asteroid might have MICROGRAVITY, VACUUM. These tags would each have a list of challenges associated with them, and a geo (or xeno?) team would roll against them along with some generic challenges like 'Structural collapse', 'Accident', 'Serial killer', etc. 

Ideally, there would be tradeoffs between attributes of vehicles used for the units. A too large unit may even be susceptible just from its size to more problems from seismic events et cetera.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Hazard on February 12, 2018, 04:32:00 PM
Geosurveying random pieces of rock some of which may generate so much in the way of TN materials it'd be a major component if not the only component (looking at you comets), it'd be entirely understandable if non-dwarf planet size bodies/celestial objects below a certain gravitation treshold just... don't benefit from a ground based geosurvey. They're so small the sensor system detects everything.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 12, 2018, 05:05:40 PM
Geosurveying random pieces of rock some of which may generate so much in the way of TN materials it'd be a major component if not the only component (looking at you comets), it'd be entirely understandable if non-dwarf planet size bodies/celestial objects below a certain gravitation treshold just... don't benefit from a ground based geosurvey. They're so small the sensor system detects everything.

It is a good idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. It makes sense that a ship could fully survey smaller bodies but larger ones would need a ground-based survey for the full impact. This could also be combined with another suggestion that certain worlds could be identified as having additional potential. Now this becomes something with a lot less micromanagement, as it might only be one or two worlds in a system.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: the obelisk on February 12, 2018, 05:11:49 PM
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe link=topic=9830. msg106589#msg106589 date=1518473072
Scout units sound fine, though much like espionage teams, good luck ever using them outside a multi-earth start.
I imagine scouts as a ground unit that's primary use is during a ground based conflict, giving you more information about the enemy units, offering a way to use an FFS on a tactically defensive enemy without exposing your main combat units from their fortifications, and possibly providing some generalized/abstracted recon bonus.

Quote from: Garfunkel link=topic=9830. msg106590#msg106590 date=1518473228
SIGINT module for ships would be great.  It can be little frustrating how little player can find out about enemy ships even in combat.

I can see a use for espionage teams still - if you do decide to create an embassy facility that can be sent to alien planets, then require that in place before an espionage team can be created.  Their transport is handwaved as part of regular supply runs for the embassy and their hiding among aliens is easier to explain as cultural / trade envoys operating from the embassy.  Make it available only during peace is a sensible limitation.

This facilitates both gameplay and storytelling: we'll have additional space options while keeping the option for James Bond style espionage as well.  SIGINT can tell us that there are X facilities on a planet, HUMINT from the espionage team tells us that the facilities are building Y.
I really like this approach, and think that your suggestion of abstracting the transportation is better than my suggestion of making embassies require maintenance.   To avoid the teleportation issue, I imagine you could use some sort of transit time mechanic, so that the espionage team is only available after a certain amount of time based on the distance from their origin to their destination, and your best tier of engine tech.   Doing it that way, you might require that they be recalled before you get the benefits of their mission, since some people were talking about extraction/sending a message home.   Or, you could have the mission be assigned at the starting planet, and just set a mission duration (which gets added to transit time) after which they automatically return to give you the benefits of the mission.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 12, 2018, 07:50:13 PM
It is a good idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. It makes sense that a ship could fully survey smaller bodies but larger ones would need a ground-based survey for the full impact. This could also be combined with another suggestion that certain worlds could be identified as having additional potential. Now this becomes something with a lot less micromanagement, as it might only be one or two worlds in a system.

It could all be part of the Anomaly system
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Praetori on February 13, 2018, 02:57:15 AM
Quote from: alex_brunius link=topic=9830. msg106569#msg106569 date=1518437735
Well SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) we need to separate between communications and non communications.  COMINT entails listening in on the enemy communications to learn their secrets rather then simply scanning their ships or the analyzing emissions from ship systems (ELINT).  This means you also need to have translated their language and (if sensitive information) also cracked their encryption/codes.

Would be nice with ELINT sensors combining other techs and not as a single sensor but rather a sensor-suite.
For ease of management though it would probably need to be simplified down to getting stats of planets and ship properties depending on the type of sensors and time spent collecting.

Information both on enemy active sensors and ECM would enable you to adapt in both EMCON and weaponry for example.

Would also be immersive to have "civilian" modules for that espionage trading-vessel (could provide some inter-connectivity with diplomacy, depending on how advanced such a feature gets).

SIGINT on comms could provide ideas about enemy force-dispositions and also reveal commanders and even information on assets that are not readily visible in-system.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Conscript Gary on February 14, 2018, 05:15:12 PM
First things first, I'm very much a fan of diplomacy ships (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLhS46IcnSs) as a concept. As far as expanding it into a system that allows for embassies and such, could it maybe hook into the same mechanics that orbital terraformers and asteroid miners use? If you're at a treaty level that allows for establishing embassies, or perhaps that's a new treaty entirely, then you can send a ship with a diplomatic module (or embassy module if you want to make those separate) to orbit an alien population, and it will act as a link to that colony. So long as that treaty is maintained, an embassy module in orbit will help build relations or maybe soften the penalties from negative actions. Without the treaty, the opposite occurs.

I'm also enjoying the ideas of ground survey that has a lower body bound and can be informed by the orbital survey results, as well as more SIGINT-based espionage.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Froggiest1982 on February 14, 2018, 07:29:03 PM
Yes, that is a good idea. I was also wondering how to get the proposed scout team to the surface undetected :)

Making espionage a ship-based system (Russian Trawler) solves that problem. In early versions of Aurora you could learn tech from scanning alien ships with active sensors and that was removed as being too powerful (and because it made active sensors extremely provocative). A more focused, expensive module intended for signals intelligence would be a better option, especially as potential tech gains would be a minor and rare part of that. It would mainly be about establishing knowledge about population, ground force and ship capabilities (without necessarily being able to duplicate those capabilities).

The new sensor array could be a designed system, allowing a separate tech line plus variable size and effective range.

Perhaps Diplomacy could be handled both via ship and some form of ground installation (Embassy).

Hi @Steve Walmsley, question: How do I know if the ship in my system is an espionage ship or a diplomacy one? Also, I believe if you go down that path you may want to consider the diplomacy module as commercial and the espionage as military same as with Geo and Grav, that could possibly solve my dilemma as well. The embassy could be good to have but I may suggest that to be handled by diplomacy overview thick same as other agreements on diplomacy screen rather than building on the surface? I don't think have one embassy per system per planet modifier being a realistic one unless you add consulates, but it's already sounding too complicated.

It is a good idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. It makes sense that a ship could fully survey smaller bodies but larger ones would need a ground-based survey for the full impact. This could also be combined with another suggestion that certain worlds could be identified as having additional potential. Now this becomes something with a lot less micromanagement, as it might only be one or two worlds in a system.

I disagree sorry. I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way. It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look. If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced. You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what. Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors. Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games. This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Graham on February 15, 2018, 12:25:17 AM
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=9830. msg106623#msg106623 date=1518658143

I disagree sorry.  I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way.  It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look.  If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced.  You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what.  Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors.  Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games.  This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.

Sorry but this sounds extremely tedious.  I already pretty much ignore survey teams.  The direction of making them something which you only do a few times per system, but increasing their meaningfulness appeals much more to me.  I also like the suggestion of adding a bit of depth with that random event table.  That way we add depth while removing tedium.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: alex_brunius on February 15, 2018, 02:41:48 AM
I disagree sorry. I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way. It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look. If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced. You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what. Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors. Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games. This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.

Maybe something in-between?

How about:
Basic Geo survey sensors can survey accurately bodies up to size X, but most moons and all planets need a ground survey to complete it.
Improved Geo survey sensors can also survey accurately most smaller moons but almost all planets need a ground survey to complete it.
Advanced Geo survey sensors can survey accurately all moons and most smaller planets as well, typically only the 1-2 largest planets (if they exist) need ground survey.
Phased Geo survey sensors are just a helluva lot faster, but otherwise like Advanced.

This way the amount of situations where you need to do multiple surveys is reduced to minimal and if you really dislike microing ground surveys you can put more weight to researching Geo sensors, but can also early on make up for lack of tech with more effort (into ground survey), or if you like that RP aspect of having to do extensive surveys simply don't research improved Geo sensors.


I also second it could be interesting to have bodies that are space surveyed which no minerals sometimes being classified as "no potential" so you don't need to ground survey all of them, or sometimes being classified as alot of potential which could mean a more extensive ground survey is required to reveal their true potential. This all brings depth and uniqueness to bodies which I am always for!
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Zincat on February 15, 2018, 04:48:42 AM
I disagree sorry. I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way. It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look. If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced. You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what. Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors. Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games. This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.

Sorry to be blunt, but this sounds like micro hell, even worse than the team system we have right now. Under this system, you would NOT BE ABLE to use a planet until you geosurvey it, by bringing troops on it. That's seriously horrible, this is a game, a happy medium of realism and playability is the key. Besides it's not even realistic, geology does not work like that. Yes, yes Tn material are basically imaginary elements, but still it is reasonable to suppose that in game lore they DO have preferred "spawning" environments,  that it is not completely random.

After reading the rest of the thread, I will remodulate my original proposal a bit.

- All bodies under a certain size can be completely surveyed by a geosurvey ship. The size is up to Steve of course. Maybe, 400km or smaller?
- All larger bodies cannot be completely surveyed, because sensors are not magic and cannot completely penetrate the larger body. However, just by studying the planet (maybe using some extra time for geosurvey? Or, just for free as a roleplay element) an estimate can be made of the potential of finding additional TN minerals. Most bodies will have no potential ("Its just a dirt/silicate/ferrous/whatever rock boss, sorry but we're not going to find any TN material here" ), some bodies will have "Some potential", and a few bodies will have "high potential" of finding additional TN materials.

I believe this to be a happy medium of usability, balance and also roleplay potential. All the while, reducing the tedium of moving the teams around AND making the galaxy a more interesting place. Because not all worlds are the same, and even a planet with potential can become a strategic target.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 15, 2018, 04:53:48 AM
After reading the rest of the thread, I will remodulate my original proposal a bit.

- All bodies under a certain size can be completely surveyed by a geosurvey ship. The size is up to Steve of course. Maybe, 400km or smaller?
- All larger bodies cannot be completely surveyed, because sensors are not magic and cannot completely penetrate the larger body. However, just by studying the planet (maybe using some extra time for geosurvey? Or, just for free as a roleplay element) an estimate can be made of the potential of finding additional TN minerals. Most bodies will have no potential ("Its just a dirt/silicate/ferrous/whatever rock boss, sorry but we're not going to find and TN material here" ), some bodies will have "Some potential", and a few bodies will have "high potential" of finding additional TN materials.


Something on these lines is my current intention. I'll also change the land-based survey to points based instead of random.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: alex_brunius on February 15, 2018, 05:51:06 AM
Something on these lines is my current intention. I'll also change the land-based survey to points based instead of random.

Sounds great! Being able to visually see progress X/Y points should reduce frustration alot when ground surveying larger bodies, and could make surveying large planets a more epic undertaking.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: schroeam on February 15, 2018, 07:24:35 AM
I like all of these ideas.  I really think having civilians and scientists involved in the diplomatic and xeno/survey missions adds flavor, but not a requirement.  One question:  Would it be possible to establish an embassy on an alien colony world to allow for further diplomatic growth and the use of civilian diplomats without the continued use of a ship to conduct negotiations?

Adam.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: TMaekler on February 15, 2018, 07:38:31 AM
- All bodies under a certain size can be completely surveyed by a geosurvey ship. The size is up to Steve of course. Maybe, 400km or smaller?
- All larger bodies cannot be completely surveyed, because sensors are not magic and cannot completely penetrate the larger body.
Maybe using another tech line which increases sensor abilities. So you start with bodies <200km and get up to <2000km with proper research. Or whatever values Steve thinks would fit.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: the obelisk on February 15, 2018, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=9830. msg106623#msg106623 date=1518658143
I disagree sorry.  I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way.  It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look.

Yeah, but that's normal minerals.   These are Trans-Newtonian minerals.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Zincat on February 16, 2018, 09:42:01 AM
Maybe using another tech line which increases sensor abilities. So you start with bodies <200km and get up to <2000km with proper research. Or whatever values Steve thinks would fit.

This would lead to a nightmarish micromanagement situation in which you have to re-survey systems once your technology goes up. I don't think that's advisable at all.

Frankly, I really think that further refinements in geosurvey sensor tech should only increase survey speed.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: serger on February 17, 2018, 03:13:09 AM
It could all be part of the Anomaly system

Second this!

It will be cool, by the way, if there will be obligate Anomaly at each home world, because it will explain why are those worlds so rich with TN minerals.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: firefly2442 on February 17, 2018, 09:34:55 AM
I feel the current survey teams are a little clunky.   They require a lot of manual effort and management.   It would be nice to either attach that ability to another entity in the game and/or to provide automation to the player in conducting surveys.   For example, you could add teams to survey ships and have them explore and survey automatically.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: TheBawkHawk on February 17, 2018, 12:34:40 PM
For example, you could add teams to survey ships and have them explore and survey automatically.

Agreed, if survey teams are going to be changed, I'd like them to be like this. An optional module that you can add to a survey ship, which carries a survey team that will automatically survey the body as it's scanned. It should be a fairly large module though, to balance out the options of either bringing a survey team on your ship but having it be a larger and more expensive ship, or the current system where its just the scanner, and you can bring around the survey team afterwards.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Bremen on February 17, 2018, 12:48:43 PM
I really don't see what the game gains by having multiple levels of survey. It isn't a fun or interesting mechanic, and it adds nothing except micromanagement.

So my suggestion remains to just have the one level of survey. If you want to have the equivalent of more in depth surveys on larger planets, just increase the survey point cost of large bodies and have it give accurate reports the first time - then you can model larger and more efficient geo scanners by just putting more scanners on the survey ship.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: prophetical on February 17, 2018, 03:05:12 PM
Perhaps it would be reasonable to outsource surveying to civilian ships, much like creating contracts for ferrying items.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Graham on February 17, 2018, 11:55:43 PM
I feel the current survey teams are a little clunky.   They require a lot of manual effort and management.   It would be nice to either attach that ability to another entity in the game and/or to provide automation to the player in conducting surveys.   For example, you could add teams to survey ships and have them explore and survey automatically.

If we are just having two levels of survey which both operate in the same way, we may as well just remove team surveys, since it would then be adding basically nothing.
I prefer the previous idea of using ground forces, but only only having a handful of bodies per system worth surveying, and maybe add some new events to survey to make it more interesting.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 18, 2018, 01:06:35 AM
I really don't see what the game gains by having multiple levels of survey. It isn't a fun or interesting mechanic, and it adds nothing except micromanagement.

So my suggestion remains to just have the one level of survey. If you want to have the equivalent of more in depth surveys on larger planets, just increase the survey point cost of large bodies and have it give accurate reports the first time - then you can model larger and more efficient geo scanners by just putting more scanners on the survey ship.

It lets you pick out potentially useful worlds for further investigation, and then further-investigate them.  It's a good RP endeavor with practical benefits.  I don't think it was ever really intended as something you should do for every dead rock.  In Aurora-VB, i only team survey potential colonies and bodies that already have notably good minerals.

In Aurora-C, it could also potentially have impact on ship design, and on player behavior. Right now, optimal play essentially involves throwing out lots of expendable survey ships because they really arn't worth the fuel or effort of naval squadrons to even pretend to protect them.  A large science vessel worth many BP and carry as much as 10 or more commanders would in comparison be an asset of considerable worth.  Or, difficulty of survey could be split up between 'asteroidal' - easy - and 'planetary' - much more difficult'.

Consider that surveying is somewhat degenerate right now in Aurora VB.  There's little consideration of systems too far to practically survey - little use of forward survey bases - no percentage in protecting your survey ships.  It's unappealing micro precisely because there's little reward or engagement in the mechanic right now.

Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Bremen on February 18, 2018, 01:27:25 PM
It lets you pick out potentially useful worlds for further investigation, and then further-investigate them.  It's a good RP endeavor with practical benefits.  I don't think it was ever really intended as something you should do for every dead rock.  In Aurora-VB, i only team survey potential colonies and bodies that already have notably good minerals.

In Aurora-C, it could also potentially have impact on ship design, and on player behavior. Right now, optimal play essentially involves throwing out lots of expendable survey ships because they really arn't worth the fuel or effort of naval squadrons to even pretend to protect them.  A large science vessel worth many BP and carry as much as 10 or more commanders would in comparison be an asset of considerable worth.  Or, difficulty of survey could be split up between 'asteroidal' - easy - and 'planetary' - much more difficult'.

Consider that surveying is somewhat degenerate right now in Aurora VB.  There's little consideration of systems too far to practically survey - little use of forward survey bases - no percentage in protecting your survey ships.  It's unappealing micro precisely because there's little reward or engagement in the mechanic right now.

Except as you point out, there's no reason not to fully survey every rock, because distance is otherwise a large obstacle. Better to have 100 minerals in a colonized system system than 1000 ten jumps away. So in practice geosurvey teams/ground units always boil down to "the optimum path is lots of unnecessary micromanagement".

As for the rest, I'm not opposed to survey ships being more expensive, I'm opposed to having to survey things twice to get the full results. Not to mention two levels of survey wouldn't change what you're saying; if there were cheap initial survey ships and expensive secondary survey ships, people would just explore systems with the cheap ones and only send in an expensive one once the system was checked out (and thus wouldn't need an escort).

If you want actual reasons to escort them, or establish frontier bases, you'd want expensive survey ships but only one survey level.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 19, 2018, 04:16:06 AM
The original geology team mechanic was intended for use on a few key worlds (which is how I tend to play it). However, I didn't think it through that well :)

The ground-unit solution for a few worlds only would match my original intention.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Bremen on February 19, 2018, 02:17:43 PM
The original geology team mechanic was intended for use on a few key worlds (which is how I tend to play it). However, I didn't think it through that well :)

The ground-unit solution for a few worlds only would match my original intention.

To clarify, my opinion is that even when confined to a few worlds, it doesn't really add anything (except maybe roleplay opportunities I guess) that having the minerals surveyed from the start doesn't. Though in that regard I do at least favor the ground based teams over a second type of survey ship I suppose, since it's not doing the same thing twice.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: the obelisk on February 19, 2018, 02:35:17 PM
Geological teams (or the unit that resonances them) should do more than just have a chance if fusing nite minerals or increasing accessibility.   Maybe they could give you an idea of the what the planet's trade goods situation will be if you decide to set up a colony.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Dr. Toboggan on February 19, 2018, 02:54:17 PM
Maybe the alien ruins could be expanded? There would be a higher chance of finding them, but the rewards would be reduced.  When your xenologist unit (or whatever form they will eventually take) finds the ruins and excavates them, they could discover something like an ancient defense network/fortifications, giving a small defense bonus to ground forces.  Or perhaps the team gets attacked by local fauna, which would require them to be somewhat defended.

For geological surveys though, I think that the possibility of more minerals should be detected during the initial scan, and then require a dedicated team, with the extra cost of transporting the team there being a big pay off in terms of minerals.  This could give it much more of an expeditionary feel to the mechanic, since instead of just sending teams to Mars, Venus, Europa, etc., your long range survey ships have found something far from your borders that is well worth the expense of exploring further. 

However, both of these should probably be limited to large planetary bodies.  Maybe instead for asteroids, there could be a chance where once the sensors finish the scan, the ship would scan the body again, with a chance to find extra minerals.  Rather than sending an entirely separate expedition, the ship just does a double check and might find something it did not see on its first pass.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Garfunkel on February 20, 2018, 09:44:10 AM
there's no reason not to fully survey every rock
If you are so obsessive that you HAVE TO use geo teams to survey every system completely, down to the last asteroid, then you are obsessive enough to go nuts with something else. I only use teams on bodies that I'm already colonizing or mining or using otherwise. I can't even imagine the OCD required to survey 200+ bodies in the hope of getting more minerals. Why not just use SM to put few million of each TN mineral somewhere and call it a day?
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: QuakeIV on February 20, 2018, 07:37:21 PM
Because letting the game decide legitimized the amount, accessibility, and location of the minerals, rather than it just being something you make up.

I personally might request that survey ships be able to carry survey teams around that they automatically drop as part of surveying.  Then they wait for the team to finish, pick em up and move on.

It's a bad idea in the near term for feature creep reasons I think, until Steve at the very least gets a test game going, but in general I would argue this might be nice.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Dr. Toboggan on February 20, 2018, 08:09:49 PM
I personally might request that survey ships be able to carry survey teams around that they automatically drop as part of surveying.  Then they wait for the team to finish, pick em up and move on.

If Steve does implement survey ground units, couldn't you just put the smallest troop bay on your survey ship, then carry a unit around for this?
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Conscript Gary on February 21, 2018, 12:01:05 AM
Especially since we'll now have a transport bay that's about 1/5th smaller than the smallest we had before.

The 100 ton bay will transport 100 tons of troops (about 20 soldiers or a heavy tank).

That seems about right for an independent survey unit, at a no-mechanics glance, though of course it will depend on how much survey capability you can actually fit into that much troop tonnage.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Hazard on February 21, 2018, 04:22:30 AM
Especially since we'll now have a transport bay that's about 1/5th smaller than the smallest we had before.

That seems about right for an independent survey unit, at a no-mechanics glance, though of course it will depend on how much survey capability you can actually fit into that much troop tonnage.

Not a lot of it. Enough, mind you, that you'll be able to get a decent estimate in a couple of decades as they roam the surface of an Earth sized planet looking for signs of TN materials, but that's about it. I personally expect that a given 'team' for archeology or surveying will mass at several thousand to several tens of thousands of tons between the equipment needed and personnel numbers.

Remember, that '5 tons for a basic weapon' isn't just the weapon; it's also everything that's needed to operate it, including the soldier and his life support systems.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: ardem on February 21, 2018, 10:28:01 PM
I still not see the need for geology team it should be abstracted based on the number of mining stations you employed. I am normally a fan of micromanagement, but moving geology teams from one planet to another and finding deposits within a year is neither realistic or beneficial.

Realistically it should take 40+ years to ground survey a planet, for minerals.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: Bughunter on March 28, 2018, 06:15:42 AM
I think just the potential for expanding it in interesting ways later on makes the team mechanic worth keeping. Like adding the possibility for teams to be abducted by hostile aliens. Or tie them in to some research branches, like a terraforming tech getting a bonus from sending a team to a specific type of rare planet to study it.
Title: Re: Replacing Teams?
Post by: tobijon on March 28, 2018, 08:33:51 AM
If you tie in teams to research then the same can be done using ground troops, have a special troop ability to do research.  If such a thing were implemented, i think it should be a limited amount per planet.  So an interesting planet can get studied to get terraforming data, but not indefinitely.  The same mechanic can also apply to planets with ruins, with parts of research being found there (not just by recovering laboratories, but just the buildings themselves can reveal a lot, this can be reflected by such a mechanic).