Author Topic: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread  (Read 108324 times)

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Offline Hydrofoil

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #255 on: January 31, 2014, 06:50:57 AM »
A bit of searching would have revealed that this is in the works, just don't expect it anytime soon.

Aaah right thanks for the heads up ill admit I didnt really look, it was mostly and impulse thought.

Im not sure if this has been suggested but could we have some work done on the fleet order screen to make it easier to choose fleets and stuff instead of a drop down box? It quite unweildly when you have several explorer vessels all acting independently.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #256 on: January 31, 2014, 10:28:54 AM »
Im not sure if this has been suggested but could we have some work done on the fleet order screen to make it easier to choose fleets and stuff instead of a drop down box? It quite unweildly when you have several explorer vessels all acting independently.

I might look at this at some point. Don't forget though you can right-click the fleet on the system map and select it that way. It's easier than opening the Fleet window and scrolling down the list.
 

Offline markus

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #257 on: January 31, 2014, 11:50:03 AM »
I haven't played Aurora for quite some time and I can't check now, so this might have already been implemented but...

Can we get a "reload ordnance from task group" command? The same that we have for populations, only for task groups? When I played, unless I did something wrong, the only way to reload missiles was to do it manually from the ship details screen, which gets very tedious if you have many ships you need to reload.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #258 on: January 31, 2014, 11:55:00 AM »
I haven't played Aurora for quite some time and I can't check now, so this might have already been implemented but...

Can we get a "reload ordnance from task group" command? The same that we have for populations, only for task groups? When I played, unless I did something wrong, the only way to reload missiles was to do it manually from the ship details screen, which gets very tedious if you have many ships you need to reload.

You can do that if you designate a class as a collier - the reload from fleet order will then appear (just as you get extra orders when a class is flagged as a tanker).
 

Offline Hydrofoil

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #259 on: February 01, 2014, 07:21:25 AM »
I might look at this at some point. Don't forget though you can right-click the fleet on the system map and select it that way. It's easier than opening the Fleet window and scrolling down the list.

oooh I didnt know this thanks.
 

Offline Sematary

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #260 on: February 01, 2014, 08:40:38 AM »
The aliens can build infrastructure.....
Sure they can but how much infrastructure can they make in a day? Even at base terraforming tech of 0.001 a 20,000,000 terraformer will do 54.8 atmospheres a day. So within two days you could take Venus and terraform it to a vacuum.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #261 on: February 03, 2014, 04:08:19 AM »
One thing I would not mind seeing is some changes to the balance for beam weapons and missile weapons.

1.  Reduce the size of beam weapon fire controls to 0.  Lets be frank here:  a dedicated graphics card based solution (the physics chip) can perform the calculations necessary.  There is no sensors associated with the system, it is simply a balistic targetting computer that tells the turret or barbette where to point based on the ships sensors information on the targets location.  It is in terms of tonnes of material a few kg.  The performance cost of it should scale with your settings but the system itself is zero space or at most 1 space.  The current situation where the fire control system occupies more volume then the weapon works against the beam weapons sigificantly.  It makes it hard to even justify them as a secondary weapon.

2.  Remove the x3 multiplier from missile fire controls.  This has nothing more than the effect of making it easy to use missiles at long ranges and completely negates the effect of ECM.  ECM is best countered by simply overbuilding your missile fire control rather than investing in ECCM.

3.  Increase the fuel requirement on missiles signficantly.  At the moment missiles contain virtually no fuel.  A modern missile is mostly fuel.

4.  Change the to hit formula for missiles, and remove the "missile speed"/"target speed" term.  In principle if the missile reaches the target is the only affect missile speed should have.  Once it is at the target it needs to detonate at a close range so the target is inside that fireball of the missile.  This is so far as I can see the missile agility.  That should be the only factor determining if the missile hits.  The formula as it stands makes sense for beam weapons but pretty much no sense for missiles, and I see no reason the same formula needs to apply to both beam weapons and missiles.  Speed would only effect the question of the detonation timer...so it would be the vector sum of the velocities of the missiles compared to the fireball range and timer accuracy.  Basically were the missiles moving in such a way that the timing of the detonation left the target outside the effective blast radius.  But in this case really fast missiles would suffer reduced chances to hit since the accuracy of the detonator would be more critical.

I understand that none of this will be popular. 
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #262 on: February 03, 2014, 04:25:03 AM »
One thing I would not mind seeing is some changes to the balance for beam weapons and missile weapons.

1.  Reduce the size of beam weapon fire controls to 0.  Lets be frank here:  a dedicated graphics card based solution (the physics chip) can perform the calculations necessary.  There is no sensors associated with the system, it is simply a balistic targetting computer that tells the turret or barbette where to point based on the ships sensors information on the targets location.  It is in terms of tonnes of material a few kg.  The performance cost of it should scale with your settings but the system itself is zero space or at most 1 space.  The current situation where the fire control system occupies more volume then the weapon works against the beam weapons sigificantly.  It makes it hard to even justify them as a secondary weapon.

2.  Remove the x3 multiplier from missile fire controls.  This has nothing more than the effect of making it easy to use missiles at long ranges and completely negates the effect of ECM.  ECM is best countered by simply overbuilding your missile fire control rather than investing in ECCM.

3.  Increase the fuel requirement on missiles signficantly.  At the moment missiles contain virtually no fuel.  A modern missile is mostly fuel.

4.  Change the to hit formula for missiles, and remove the "missile speed"/"target speed" term.  In principle if the missile reaches the target is the only affect missile speed should have.  Once it is at the target it needs to detonate at a close range so the target is inside that fireball of the missile.  This is so far as I can see the missile agility.  That should be the only factor determining if the missile hits.  The formula as it stands makes sense for beam weapons but pretty much no sense for missiles, and I see no reason the same formula needs to apply to both beam weapons and missiles.  Speed would only effect the question of the detonation timer...so it would be the vector sum of the velocities of the missiles compared to the fireball range and timer accuracy.  Basically were the missiles moving in such a way that the timing of the detonation left the target outside the effective blast radius.  But in this case really fast missiles would suffer reduced chances to hit since the accuracy of the detonator would be more critical.

I understand that none of this will be popular.  

A noob I may be, but I heartily support these suggestions. I'd love to see beam weapons more effective than they are now. Ok to missiles being the primary ranged weapon, but that does not mean they should be the "I win" button.

Steve, please, could we know why missiles are basically intended as the only viable weapon for a fleet? I am not necessarily saying they should be nerfed in range, but it's not nice that they are the only viable fleet weapon. Let's face it, why using beam weapons when I can just make 10 missile slinging ships, overwhelm point defense from 100m km away, and then reload and do it again?

The range advantage is more than enough already to compensate the fact one has to build missiles in my opinion. No reason have beam weapons nerfed so much as a whole.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 04:28:59 AM by Zincat »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #263 on: February 03, 2014, 05:07:40 AM »
Steve, please, could we know why missiles are basically intended as the only viable weapon for a fleet? I am not necessarily saying they should be nerfed in range, but it's not nice that they are the only viable fleet weapon. Let's face it, why using beam weapons when I can just make 10 missile slinging ships, overwhelm point defense from 100m km away, and then reload and do it again?

I didn't start out with the idea that missiles would massively out-range beams. I just created a game with a set of base principles for the physics and that was the result. For example, in the real world if there was a war between two modern navies, how much of the combat would be missile-based and how much would be gun-based? How would that change when they ran out of missiles?

The missile has a huge range advantage because that is simply the reality of the situation. Beams are easy to avoid at any appreciable range just by dodging. Even if you didn't know you were being fired at then random course adjustments would suffice. I could build into the game long-range beams and random dodging but it would add complexity with no game-play benefit. Even with current tech we can send 'missiles' millions of kilometers so there is no justifiable reason to artificially restrict their range.

In a one-off battle, missiles are far more powerful. In an extended campaign, that isn't the case. Once you have played a few campaigns you will be building a significant number of beam ships because missiles have a lot of disadvantages as well. They can be intercepted, missiles have to be built using minerals/wealth and transported to the combat ships, once you run out your missile ship is just an expensive target, missile ships get taken apart in a close range jump point defence, missiles don't work in Nebulae, etc.

You can probably build a viable beam-only fleet. There is no way you could build a viable missile-only fleet.

 

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #264 on: February 03, 2014, 05:46:41 AM »
Hi Steve
Thank you for your time spent on improving this monster game/simulator of whatever it is, all of us are impatiently waiting next 6.40.
I would again stress you the importance to have somehow, ground invasion by AI.
I know, maybe it's not in your plan and you focusing on other, but you could think something of specific and not so complicate as for instance, that AI makes invasion only for a certain kind of planet based on size, thermal signature, distance from its nearest base, I don't know what...
Adding just something of simple that simulate ground invasion would add a lot of fun and surprise, stressing in positive we poor aurora-maniacs ;)

 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #265 on: February 03, 2014, 06:04:46 AM »
I didn't start out with the idea that missiles would massively out-range beams. I just created a game with a set of base principles for the physics and that was the result. For example, in the real world if there was a war between two modern navies, how much of the combat would be missile-based and how much would be gun-based? How would that change when they ran out of missiles?

The missile has a huge range advantage because that is simply the reality of the situation. Beams are easy to avoid at any appreciable range just by dodging. Even if you didn't know you were being fired at then random course adjustments would suffice. I could build into the game long-range beams and random dodging but it would add complexity with no game-play benefit. Even with current tech we can send 'missiles' millions of kilometers so there is no justifiable reason to artificially restrict their range.

In a one-off battle, missiles are far more powerful. In an extended campaign, that isn't the case. Once you have played a few campaigns you will be building a significant number of beam ships because missiles have a lot of disadvantages as well. They can be intercepted, missiles have to be built using minerals/wealth and transported to the combat ships, once you run out your missile ship is just an expensive target, missile ships get taken apart in a close range jump point defence, missiles don't work in Nebulae, etc.

You can probably build a viable beam-only fleet. There is no way you could build a viable missile-only fleet.

Thanks for the answer, Steve.

I understand your reasoning about realistic portray of the situation. Indeed my post was not about reducing the range of the missiles, but more about some unbalance that I perceive in the game. Like the missile fire control/beam fire control one. I would think it would be the contrary, that is, that missiles require bigger fire controls than beam weapons because it's harder to track a ship by missile considering you have to do it at extreme range. Unless a missile has its sensors, the tracking and necessary adjustments are done from the ship mounting the missile fire control tens of millions of km away. One would expect that to be harder than to track a close combat ship or fighter.

Also, it is true that under the current rules it's cheaper to oversize missile fire controls rather than invest in electronic warfare, since missile fire controls are so small anyway. In my opinion that's bad because you eliminate the usefulness of electronic warfare against a missile-wielding race.

I will admit though that I am a noob, and so I've never been in a nebula/never been engaged in a very long campaign. My observations are just from ship design trials.

P.S. I would also like to see ground invasions if possible, as kaiser suggested. I understand that you do not have much free time though, these suggestions are not meant to be complains. I just love this game and can hardly wait :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 06:07:07 AM by Zincat »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #266 on: February 03, 2014, 07:00:05 AM »
Hi Steve
Thank you for your time spent on improving this monster game/simulator of whatever it is, all of us are impatiently waiting next 6.40.
I would again stress you the importance to have somehow, ground invasion by AI.
I know, maybe it's not in your plan and you focusing on other, but you could think something of specific and not so complicate as for instance, that AI makes invasion only for a certain kind of planet based on size, thermal signature, distance from its nearest base, I don't know what...
Adding just something of simple that simulate ground invasion would add a lot of fun and surprise, stressing in positive we poor aurora-maniacs ;)

I do like the idea of ground invasions by the AI and I think the AI players already design troop transports. I haven't got around to implementing any code for invasions but that is just due to a lack of time rather than a lack of interest on my part.

 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #267 on: February 03, 2014, 07:25:54 AM »
I'm not convinced there are any major balance issues with the missiles vs beam argument, but I would like to give my thoughts on Paul M's points;
1) Why are fire controls so large? At the ridiculously long ranges we're talking about for beam and ballistic weapons you not only need to determine where your target will be at the time your weapon will impact it, but also need to account for the light speed lag associated with attempting to view something so far away, now if we assume that transnewtonian physics allows objects to be tracked near instantaneously without any relativistic lag, perhaps the equipment necessary for such physics bending are rather cumbersome? As pointed out somewhere else discussing this subject, the angle necessary to miss an object at such ranges would at some point approach infinitely small. Perhaps the fire controls also aim the beam as it travels using gravitational lensing or something. Where as tracking a missile from such range I assume would use more active technology, you guess where the object is based on the ghost on your sensors but as the missile gets closer the error associated with your fire control gets lower because of the lower range.
I don't really agree that fire controls are too large compared to beam weapons as for fighters you can reduce their size and range or tracking speed, fighter sized ones already get a tracking speed bonus which helps immensely, but for larger craft the fire control gets even less important as you pile more weapons onto less fire controls.

2)I think the size of missile fire controls is about right as active sensors are rather unwieldly already, but I think Paul's right about ECM/ECCM being somewhat unbalanced, It's simply too easy to overbuild fire control range, perhaps ECM/ECCM should have a random chance involved with the effect it has on your fire control and also effect active sensors in the same way.
Perhaps a good balance would be that each Level of ECM adds a 70% failure rate to enemy fire control untill it reaches maybe 10%-20 it's designed range, equal matched ECM and ECCM reduces that to 1%, Varying levels of ECM and ECCM would either add or reduce the error rate, I haven't worked out a good equation for it, but the rate should be high when theres more ECM and low when theres more ECCM. The idea of error rate is that when the sensor is checked to see what's in range a roll is made against each contact found based on ECM/ECCM, if the roll fails the contact disappears, but the roll must be modified by range so that the effect diminishes significantly. The effect of this would be rather more interesting than our current system, basically ECM shielded fleets would be hidden from your sensors untill they've crept somewhat past your sensor range, and while they were still on the perimeter would alternately drop in or out of view, missiles would need to keep travelling towards the last known contact without actually having any active sensors otherwise it would disrupt the current system, but when the fire control requires the target the missile changes heading, If the target vanishes off the fire control or sensors for some significant time before being reaquired then significant fuel would be wasted as the missile attempts to change heading for it. Furthermore if the contact vanishes as a missile is about to close on it it would obviously miss and at this point active sensors would be needed for it to reaquire the contact. Finally if the fire control of the ship that fired the missile is destroyed then as the current system the missile would self destruct if it has no actives. I would add that nebulas and black holes should increase the base error rate.

3) Agree absolutely, pre version 6 had rather logical fuel useage( for missiles and fighters that is,
 I think large ships seems about right)

4) I'm in agreement that the hit percentage being mostly based on speed might not be the best, if we assume that Aurora's missiles aren't kinetic since more speed and mass don't increase warhead size, then it's obvious that the missile never actually needs to hit it's target and probably explodes using an area of effect (Source: it's a nuclear warhead),  As Paul said if a target could actually dodge the explosion the current mechanic would make sense, I can't really find data for the explosion speed of Large nuclear weapons, but the Wikipedia page for project Orion mentions plasma velocities of 30,000 km/s, and since the energy of the explosion decreases as the fireball expands then I imagine you would need to be dead accurate in order to actually hit anything travelling at trans newtonian velocity. Furthermore this is pretty well represented by the fact that missile impacts punch distinct holes into armour which would require the detonation occuring close enough to the affected armour to send energy into the armour at a higher rate then that at which it can either absorb or reflect energy, going back to project orion it shows that under the right circumstances nuclear weapons won't destroy heavy armour as long as it's detonated far enough away from it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 08:29:47 PM by MarcAFK »
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #268 on: February 03, 2014, 11:53:10 AM »
3) Agree absolutely, pre version 6 had rather logical fuel useage

I also agree. It's actually related to all small engines even fighter/FAC ones.

You can comfortably build Aurora fighters with 50% of their weight being engines + max power mod but only 5% fuel and still get decent ranges.

A real fighter has around 25-45% internal fuel and adds drop tanks on top of that, and still count flight time in a matter of hours.

( more detail suggestion on engine size and efficiency revamp here: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,5896.msg66852.html#msg66852 )
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #269 on: February 04, 2014, 10:44:21 AM »
A (small I think) request which would make UI better. Could we have the increment time buttons and the autoturn on/off switch also on the Event Updates window?

I ask because I don't know others, but I usually spend most of my time when making turns with that windows open and only that. Everythign else I keep minimized. It would be very useful, at least for how I play...


And another small thing, for us that do transport teams to and from planets instead of teleporting them. Could we have pick up all teams/ drop all team options please? If I want to pick up 8 teams, say, from Mars and drop them to Venus, that's like 30 clicks? A "pick up all teams" and "drop all teams" addition would be MUCH welcome
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 11:27:28 AM by Zincat »