Author Topic: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions  (Read 350158 times)

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Offline MJOne

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1200 on: May 23, 2019, 04:19:53 PM »
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Offline Tuna-Fish

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1201 on: May 23, 2019, 06:28:28 PM »
Too late! I have been watching RTW2 developer updates for a long time and it does look really interesting. I want to play it and I am trying my best not to give in that impulse or Aurora development will probably go on hold for a while  :)

I strongly recommend waiting for a few bugfix releases before diving in. I used to play a lot of RTW1, and I really like the new core mechanics, but frankly there are currently quite a few issues that need to be fixed before RTW2 is truly great. For example, invasion missions are one of the new core gameplay features, but in many areas the invasion target has been placed inside a hostile minefield, leading to situations where you put in all the time and resources to invade an area and when it finally would be within your grasp, you realize that the mission is just impossible to complete. (Because there is no way to order the transports to enter an enemy minefield.) That can be very frustrating.

In addition to the pure bugs, there are also quite a few balance issues, mainly that you can pull of Kido Butai feats of air assaults, in 1925 with biplanes, which feels wrong in so many ways.

RTW1 had some issues on release too, and they all got fixed, and after the fixes they added a lot of cool new features for free too. So I fully expect that RTW2 will be a truly great game someday. It just isn't quite that today.

And absolutely none of this was motivated by trying to delay your purchase of RTW2 to get aurora C# faster. okay maybe a little.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 06:33:47 PM by Tuna-Fish »
 
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Offline Desdinova

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1202 on: May 23, 2019, 07:38:09 PM »
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Offline boggo2300

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1203 on: May 26, 2019, 06:38:35 PM »
Too late! I have been watching RTW2 developer updates for a long time and it does look really interesting. I want to play it and I am trying my best not to give in that impulse or Aurora development will probably go on hold for a while  :)

I strongly recommend waiting for a few bugfix releases before diving in. I used to play a lot of RTW1, and I really like the new core mechanics, but frankly there are currently quite a few issues that need to be fixed before RTW2 is truly great. For example, invasion missions are one of the new core gameplay features, but in many areas the invasion target has been placed inside a hostile minefield, leading to situations where you put in all the time and resources to invade an area and when it finally would be within your grasp, you realize that the mission is just impossible to complete. (Because there is no way to order the transports to enter an enemy minefield.) That can be very frustrating.

In addition to the pure bugs, there are also quite a few balance issues, mainly that you can pull of Kido Butai feats of air assaults, in 1925 with biplanes, which feels wrong in so many ways.

RTW1 had some issues on release too, and they all got fixed, and after the fixes they added a lot of cool new features for free too. So I fully expect that RTW2 will be a truly great game someday. It just isn't quite that today.

And absolutely none of this was motivated by trying to delay your purchase of RTW2 to get aurora C# faster. okay maybe a little.

I've spent the last 4 days straight playing RTW2 with zero bugs at all :D just to throw this cat I have into that flock of pigeons :D
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Offline JustAnotherDude

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1204 on: May 28, 2019, 12:58:14 PM »
There was talk on the discord about conditional orders and the conclusion we reached that there are some gaps that could use filling. Given the automation improvements that C# has brought, I though it would a good time to bring it up.

First things first, though, two more conditional slots or so would be a blessing. As of now you can't have a grav survey ship both refuel, resupply and overhaul automatically, which is not pressing but annoying.

Second things second, new orders.

1. Having asteroid miners require player interaction to pick up and deposit their minerals is awkward. It means that very low quantity asteroids never see any use, as it's too much of a hassle to bother with. Having conditions and conditionals for full cargo bays and depositing the contents of said cargo bays at a colony would be great. While we're talking about drop-offs, having the ability to specific a colony to drop off too would be amazing as well. Would certainly make fuel harvesters with engines a more palatable prospect.

2. A condition for detecting maintenance clock length. Certainly better then just waiting for supplies to reach 20%. My first thought is having the conditional activate at one, two and three years, although if you would be the drop off at colony order customizable you might make it the same way here.

3. An automated troop loading system. Doing this one well would be more of a pain, but if could done in a similar way to fighter and missile loads. A ship design has associated formation types that will be loaded when this order is activated. Would come with a "Unfilled troop compartment" condition. Especially useful for small boarding ships, as the micro for loading them can be time consuming.
 
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Offline Bremen

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1205 on: May 28, 2019, 06:22:09 PM »
I can't speak for the rest, but some sort of "find highest (total) accessibility asteroid, mine, load minerals into cargo, unload at nearest colony" order for asteroid miners would be wonderful.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1206 on: May 28, 2019, 06:34:33 PM »
I can't speak for the rest, but some sort of "find highest (total) accessibility asteroid, mine, load minerals into cargo, unload at nearest colony" order for asteroid miners would be wonderful.

Unfortunately, it is more complicated than that. How many systems away do you allow the fleet to go? How about an asteroid 100 AU out? How far would you go if there was only 1000 tons of the mineral? What about if it was a long way and only slightly better than the current location? How does the miner know what minerals are important to you? How about systems next to known alien systems? etc.

The AI can deal with those sort of issues for NPRs, because NPRs have strict controls on deployments, what they can and can't build and they assign values to systems and bodies on an empire-wide basis. In many cases, the 'smarter conditional orders' requests have so many caveats they aren't practical unless the player accepts restrictions on behaviour in the same ways as NPRs.
 

Offline MasonMac

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1207 on: May 28, 2019, 07:03:32 PM »
"Thoughts" for Commanders similar to Dwarf Fortress. So like the President isn't exactly a fan of increased militarization by the fleet admiral and will try to cut funding for shipbuilding etc. Just optional since not everyone will like it I imagine.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1208 on: May 29, 2019, 10:15:54 AM »
Unfortunately, it is more complicated than that. How many systems away do you allow the fleet to go? How about an asteroid 100 AU out? How far would you go if there was only 1000 tons of the mineral? What about if it was a long way and only slightly better than the current location? How does the miner know what minerals are important to you? How about systems next to known alien systems? etc.

The AI can deal with those sort of issues for NPRs, because NPRs have strict controls on deployments, what they can and can't build and they assign values to systems and bodies on an empire-wide basis. In many cases, the 'smarter conditional orders' requests have so many caveats they aren't practical unless the player accepts restrictions on behaviour in the same ways as NPRs.

Could this not be covered on the same basis as the geo/grav survey conditional orders?

It doesn't really matter if the instruction isn't particularly clever if you can just bar high risk systems like you already can in C#, and otherwise it'll just go for the closest. Anything that's valuable enough as an asteroid mine to really matter would be the sort of thing to get a CMC or an automated mining colony anyway.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1209 on: May 29, 2019, 10:20:51 AM »
Unfortunately, it is more complicated than that. How many systems away do you allow the fleet to go? How about an asteroid 100 AU out? How far would you go if there was only 1000 tons of the mineral? What about if it was a long way and only slightly better than the current location? How does the miner know what minerals are important to you? How about systems next to known alien systems? etc.

The AI can deal with those sort of issues for NPRs, because NPRs have strict controls on deployments, what they can and can't build and they assign values to systems and bodies on an empire-wide basis. In many cases, the 'smarter conditional orders' requests have so many caveats they aren't practical unless the player accepts restrictions on behaviour in the same ways as NPRs.
Maybe adding mineral demands in the civilian transport-transfer screen might be a solution for this. One then can let the civilians construct asteroid miners and they do the collecting and deliver to those planets.
 
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1210 on: May 31, 2019, 03:23:54 AM »
Too late! I have been watching RTW2 developer updates for a long time and it does look really interesting. I want to play it and I am trying my best not to give in that impulse or Aurora development will probably go on hold for a while  :)

The developers of RTW/RTW2 have amazing knowledge about the time period and great attention for detail. Unfortunately they don't seem to have an equally deep understand of physics which leads to some very odd calculation under the hood for example for with their armor calculations being all sorts of messed up.

http://nws-online.proboards.com/thread/2341/larger-displacement-result-lighter-armor
http://nws-online.proboards.com/thread/2345/armor-large-ships-scale-volume


That is what I love the best about Aurora 4x. The tight connection to pretty plausible physics which create interesting design trade offs ( Not that RTW2 don't have design trade offs, but it just feels wrong when a 50% larger ship using same armor thickness has half the weight in armor ).
 

Offline 01010100

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1211 on: May 31, 2019, 06:01:11 AM »
Quote from: JustAnotherDude link=topic=9841. msg114704#msg114704 date=1559066294
First things first, though, two more conditional slots or so would be a blessing.  As of now you can't have a grav survey ship both refuel, resupply and overhaul automatically, which is not pressing but annoying.

I think my earlier suggestion of letting taskgroups take standing/conditional orders from higher up the hierarchy solves this problem in a better way.  Suppose you have a command hierarchy like this:

Navy HQ
-Commercial HQ
--Exploration HQ
---Geo Survey HQ
----Geosurvey TG 1
----Geosurvey TG 2
----. . .
---Grav Survey HQ
----Grav survey TG 1
----Grav survey TG 2
----. . .

Then at the Commercial HQ you'd set the refuel order, at the Exploration HQ you'd set the resupply and overhaul order, at the Geo Survey HQ you'd set the geosurvey orders, and at the Grav Survey HQ you'd set the grav survey orders.  The added advantage of this system is that once you've set it up you don't have to bother with it anymore, if you've built a new geosurvey ship then all you'd have to do is assign it to the Geo Survey HQ and it'll automatically pick up the necessary orders.
 
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Offline theoderic

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1212 on: May 31, 2019, 06:56:34 AM »
Quote from: 01010100 link=topic=9841. msg114732#msg114732 date=1559300471
Quote from: JustAnotherDude link=topic=9841.  msg114704#msg114704 date=1559066294
First things first, though, two more conditional slots or so would be a blessing.   As of now you can't have a grav survey ship both refuel, resupply and overhaul automatically, which is not pressing but annoying. 

I think my earlier suggestion of letting taskgroups take standing/conditional orders from higher up the hierarchy solves this problem in a better way.   Suppose you have a command hierarchy like this:

Navy HQ
-Commercial HQ
--Exploration HQ
---Geo Survey HQ
----Geosurvey TG 1
----Geosurvey TG 2
----.  .  . 
---Grav Survey HQ
----Grav survey TG 1
----Grav survey TG 2
----.  .  . 

Then at the Commercial HQ you'd set the refuel order, at the Exploration HQ you'd set the resupply and overhaul order, at the Geo Survey HQ you'd set the geosurvey orders, and at the Grav Survey HQ you'd set the grav survey orders.   The added advantage of this system is that once you've set it up you don't have to bother with it anymore, if you've built a new geosurvey ship then all you'd have to do is assign it to the Geo Survey HQ and it'll automatically pick up the necessary orders.

Been thinking the exact same thing actually.  Create generalized orders for entire HQ / Taskgroup-command which gets copied (once) for all sub-TGs.  This would have the additional advantages (obvious to me) of setting your entire fleet to go somewhere or do something you want.

Another possibility would be to have an organizational branch TG (special type) that are only used for order creation and management (no ships).  It would also be nice if leaders who are assigned to superior formations give partial bonuses (synergy) to lower formations in the command chain, but that would just require changing how things are now in the game, or is this perhaps already implemented without my knowledge?

(extra cool if leaders with compatible personality types gave better bonuses to eachother imo)
 

Offline 01010100

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1213 on: May 31, 2019, 07:03:05 AM »
Quote from: theoderic link=topic=9841.  msg114734#msg114734 date=1559303794
Been thinking the exact same thing actually.    Create generalized orders for entire HQ / Taskgroup-command which gets copied (once) for all sub-TGs.    This would have the additional advantages (obvious to me) of setting your entire fleet to go somewhere or do something you want.   

I wouldn't actually copy the orders to the lower level TG's since this would run into issues when you add and then again remove TG's from command levels or when you change orders at higher levels, but just in the code where the TG checks its conditional orders also make it check up the hierarchy.   So the orders only ever exist at the command level you've added them to but the TG's also check higher command levels whenever they are checking their standing/conditional orders. 

Quote
Another possibility would be to have an organizational branch TG (special type) that are only used for order creation and management (no ships).   It would also be nice if leaders who are assigned to superior formations give partial bonuses (synergy) to lower formations in the command chain, but that would just require changing how things are now in the game, or is this perhaps already implemented without my knowledge?

Something like this is indeed already being added to C# Aurora with Admin Commands, the suggestion would be to let those Admin Commands contain standing/conditional orders which then apply to the TG's under them.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:05:24 AM by 01010100 »
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1214 on: June 01, 2019, 03:27:53 AM »
While I agree that conditional orders could be improved I'm not sure that nesting them in higher commands is the way to go. I think being able to put conditional orders into the order queue would be better, as then you can do some clever order stacking for partially automating a lot of ships.