Author Topic: Replacing PDCs  (Read 84298 times)

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Offline Havear

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #240 on: October 26, 2017, 10:15:06 AM »
I hate to say it, but in general this sounds like a poor change. Other than the option of adding an MSP cost during active combat, and smaller combat rounds (since wealth is already needed for upkeep), the rest seems like it's adding a *lot* of extra work for the player and back-end for little gain at best.
Off the top of my head, how about instead a template system similar to missiles: You get a dialog where you can put points into infantry weapons, heavy weapons, artillery, air power, etc. Total points determine the size and cost of the unit, just like a missile. It's familiar, allows a straight conversion of existing ground units, gives more customization, and should be far easier on the backend.
 
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Offline bean

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #241 on: October 26, 2017, 11:02:08 AM »
Not that you'd want to put static units with any others except as guards, in which case infantry will do fine, generally speaking. I'll repeat my worries about performance issues though.
Static isn't bunkers.  It's towed artillery and anti-tank guns and heavy SAM batteries and HQs which set up tents.  Basically anything which has to stop and deploy before going into action. 
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Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #242 on: October 26, 2017, 12:01:56 PM »
I think static weapons need to be defined more thoroughly.  As it stands now, unless I'm misunderstanding something, the smallest towed AT gun would be treated the same as gigantic coastal artillery.

The Pak36, #### Germany's 37mm AT field gun, was crewed by only two people and could be moved easily.  Why is this treated the same as a 380mm coastal artillery piece that's so big it has to be disassembled to be moved?
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #243 on: October 26, 2017, 12:46:56 PM »
Static isn't bunkers.  It's towed artillery and anti-tank guns and heavy SAM batteries and HQs which set up tents.  Basically anything which has to stop and deploy before going into action. 

Yes. And shoving anything mobile other than infantry into that formation is kind of a waste of resources. The Static unit type would be kind of limiting.

I think static weapons need to be defined more thoroughly.  As it stands now, unless I'm misunderstanding something, the smallest towed AT gun would be treated the same as gigantic coastal artillery.

The Pak36, #### Germany's 37mm AT field gun, was crewed by only two people and could be moved easily.  Why is this treated the same as a 380mm coastal artillery piece that's so big it has to be disassembled to be moved?

I disagree with these assertions. You can get a Panzerabwehrkanonne-36 AT gun equivalent by accepting that an infantry operated light Anti Vehicle weapon's 'size' is its crew and inherent logistical trail cost, including a tow vehicle.
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #244 on: October 26, 2017, 04:20:48 PM »
I'm going to have to agree with the concerns around the static unit type.

From a pure military sense, a static unit is a non-mobile military asset. Static, by regular definition, also means something that doesnt move.

Static weapon positions are defensive military assets. They are used to defend high value positions, or interdict enemy forces moving through or into an area.

The towed anti-tank guns are a good example of mobile/static differences. In WW2, the anti-tank guns of all belligerents were used as defense assets by infantry formations to secure an area. They were towed into position, and early examples were light enough to have limited mobility to be move short distances by their integral crew. Later examples were much heavier (2 to 3 tons) and generally were field emplaced.

So, anti-tank guns were NOT mobile weapons in any strategic sense, and had little to no tactical mobility.

So, what does that mean in game? They dont move. They dont get used on the offense.

This can be anything from an infantry bunker to a naval gun emplacement.

The big difference would be on the level of fortification as Steve has already laid out. So, a regular towed AT-Gun could be fortified up to level 3 by the crews. That would range from basic field positions to dug in improvised bunkers. Anything past that would be combat engineered defenses, involving concrete.

The Maginot line for example, is a large static emplaced command. It ranged from individual anti-infantry machine gun emplacements to large anti-tank and field artillery bunkers. The big thing with these kinds of static positions is that they are offensively USELESS.

While the Maginot Line was very powerful, anything outside of the beaten zone of its guns was completely safe from the Line.

That kills a couple of birds with one stone. They are great for defense purposes, but dont fire on the offense.

Mobile systems are always a threat, because they can maneuver to bring their firepower to bear and engage enemy formations. Static positions CANT they can only engage an enemy that comes within its zone of defenses.

Historically, and even today, static positions are used because they are cheap, and very effective for their costs, for defensive purposes. It doesnt mean that they arent effective. The Soviet Union fielded entire anti-tank artillery regiments in WW2 to great effect, notable at the Battle of Kursk. But when the Soviets counterattacked at Kursk, it was with tanks, not AT guns. Historically, where AT guns showed great performance in the field, they generally got converted into assault gun/tank destroyer configurations to make them offensive weapons. They were cheaper than tanks, had had a larger gun to weight ratio than tanks, but were tactically less flexible.

Finally, their were examples of very large mobile filed guns, such as the famous railway guns used by the Germans in WW1 and WW2, but examples were used by all belligerents. Railway guns were considered MOBILE for their time, as infantry was all leg infantry (slow) and regular artillery was horse drawn. A direct TN Aurora example would easily be a railgun or laser mount on a large vehicle capable of keeping up with the rest of of the maneuvering forces.

Obviously things can get pretty blurry when you consider the range of weapons in question, but the short list is that static positions regardless of type, were cheap and effective defensive positions.

Mobile systems are designed to project offensive power against an enemy force, and are used that way. They are part of the maneuver element of a ground force, and are part of its offensive potential.

edit: Sorry this got a bit longer winded than I intended, but I did want to chime in about why statics shouldn't be firing on the offense and why.
 
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Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #245 on: October 26, 2017, 05:43:25 PM »
There's a reason I said that Static units on the offensive should only get to use their Bombardment weapons. I mean, they are the best place to shove a Heavy Bombardment weapon into all the weapon slots anyway, and it's very cute you think that being on another continent will keep you safe when I don't need that grid square anyway. Or the nearest 20ish grid squares.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #246 on: October 26, 2017, 07:03:53 PM »
It was not unheard of for field guns in WW2 to be dragged to the front and used in a direct fire role against emplacements.
 

Offline swarm_sadist

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #247 on: October 26, 2017, 07:53:59 PM »
For C# Aurora, a ground 'unit' will be an individual soldier or vehicle, while a group of units will be a 'formation', although you will be able to name formations as companies, battalions, etc..
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There will be no vehicle 'crew'. A vehicle will be a single integrated unit (as will any static weapons)..

Blatantly stealing from OAW III, maybe a formation should be made up of squads. This way, soldiers, vehicles and weapons are stored the same within the database.

So 1 squad would equal: 1 infantry squad, 1 tank with crew, 1 artillery gun with crew, 1 heavy weapon team, 1 sniper team, etc. After all, the assistant loader or ammo runner are just the cogs, it's the gun the squad is built around that is important.

Eg: 1000 soldiers would probably look like:
1 HQ Company
3 Rifle Co
-27 Rifle Squads
-9 MG Squads
1 Weapon Co
-3 Light Bombardment Teams
-3 Light AA Teams
-3 Light AT Teams

Of course if you just want to make a team like this:

10 Commissars
100 Rifle Squads

No one is stopping you. :)

Quote
In terms of combat mechanics, units will fire at units, using the chance to hit, armour penetration and damage mechanics previously described. The combat round will run once per hour if no one is attacking, once every ten minutes if one side is attacking and every five minutes if both sides are attacking. I haven't decided yet how to handle aircraft, but I will probably have them attack less frequently but with higher impact.

Perhaps the combat times should be higher. This feels like combat would be over in a very short amount of time. Maybe:
High Intensity -> Every hour
Medium Intensity -> Every 12 hours
Low Intensity -> Every construction phase

Of course, this depends on whether every formation attacks at once, or sporadically.
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #248 on: October 26, 2017, 08:42:08 PM »
It was not unheard of for field guns in WW2 to be dragged to the front and used in a direct fire role against emplacements.

True, it was used tactically, but the longer term solution was assault gun, which packed the field piece onto an mobile armored platform.
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #249 on: October 27, 2017, 02:06:31 AM »
Yeah, I tend to agree that modeling down to the individual soldier is a bit way too much. If you do a conventional game start with multiple sides, each infantry division is between 10,000 and 20,000 entities that need to be modeled in the database. A couple of years back, I wrote up a setting based on the current military might of the world divided up into power blocs. The Organization of Islamic Cooperation had 167 Infantry Divisions alone. Even taking the low end, that's 1.67 million database entries for about 2/3 of the military forces of one faction.
 

Offline backstab

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #250 on: October 27, 2017, 04:11:36 AM »
Not liking the “individual” infantry and vehicle thing .... I think it should be focused at company or battalion level... what individual infantry are armed with is too tactical for this type of game
Move foward and draw fire
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #251 on: October 27, 2017, 07:16:40 AM »
Just to reiterate. I am not tracking individual infantry. I am tracking all infantry of the same type within the same formation as a single entity. I am also not tracking individual vehicles. As with infantry, I am tracking all vehicles of the same type within the same formation as a single entity. This is the same as tracking a ship's crew. There are perhaps 500 'individuals' but they are tracked as a group with casualties removed from the group total. The difference here is that the 'crew' can have several different types within it.

The only 'individual' element is that a group of 1000 infantry will have 1000 shots. I don't believe that will be a performance problem but I will know for sure when I test it.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 07:20:28 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline db48x

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #252 on: October 27, 2017, 08:12:50 AM »
I'm rather excited by the ground forces changes that've been mentioned; sounds like it'll be fun. I think this is because it resembles in some ways the real thing:

On the other hand, some of the numbers feel odd. You have 1000 infantry being the same "size" as ~60 tanks, but a more historical comparison would be ~20k infantry to ~300 tanks (or 1k infantry to 15 tanks). Or maybe my intuition is bad, after all both of those units would have varying numbers of mortars, field guns, anti-aircraft guns, trucks, cars, etc. I like that you're comparing economic costs as well, though I have less of an opinion there.

I do have two concrete questions:

Have you thought about how ground forces interact with installations? A lot of effort in a major war goes to destroying and/or capturing the enemy's industrial capacity. (At any rate it has in the last two major wars; in a lot of ancient wars no infrastructure was damaged or captured at all.)

What are your thoughts on the overall timescale of a planetary invasion? You've mentioned briefly the timescale at the micro level (individual combat rounds), but what about the macro level? WW2 was basically 6 years long, involved 50-100 million military personnel, and caused >75 million civilian casualties. (Numbers are just off the top of my head.) On the other hand I seem to recall reading some lore stating that TN troop sizes are much smaller for the same level of effectiveness, presumably due to increased mobility and firepower. On the other hand, a TN empire might be using a lot more of the planet (or a lot less). On the gripping hand... I'm bad at tri-valued logic and can't think of something for the gripping hand.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #253 on: October 27, 2017, 08:59:10 AM »
On the other hand, some of the numbers feel odd. You have 1000 infantry being the same "size" as ~60 tanks, but a more historical comparison would be ~20k infantry to ~300 tanks (or 1k infantry to 15 tanks). Or maybe my intuition is bad, after all both of those units would have varying numbers of mortars, field guns, anti-aircraft guns, trucks, cars, etc. I like that you're comparing economic costs as well, though I have less of an opinion there.

That is valid for WW2 but not really for modern formations.

Currently for example the US army contains ( Acc. to wikipedia ) 8800 M1 MBTs and 6700 Bradley IFVs, distributed over 460 000 active personnel.

For a total of 33.7 tracked & armored fighting vehicles per 1000 men.

The ratio would probably be even higher if you counted only deployed personnel in actual formations ( divisions/brigades on the field ), since alot of the personnel is bound to be of supporting or administrative nature, and we can probably assume more advanced TN tech would allow higher vehicle ratios as well.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing PDCs
« Reply #254 on: October 27, 2017, 09:15:24 AM »
Think less 'this is the absolute physical size' and more 'this is the support draw size'. That is to say, an infantry PD only requires the infantry man to operate it effectively, but a vehicle ties up several soldiers to supply it with fuel, munitions and maintenance on top of its crew for it and its weapons, which has an effect on how many individual units you can put in a given formation because those troops need to be close to the unit for actually useful turn around times.