A Gun with an Engine

[Borealis4x (OP)]

I've always wanted to create a spinal-mounted Frigate that was basically a floating gun, sort of like the In Amber Clad from Halo. It would serve as my expendable 'tackle' force while my carriers and missile cruisers did work from behind. This is my first attempt at it. I just wish I could reduce the rank of the CO, tho...

Code: [Select]

Trafalgar class Frigate (P)      5,000 tons       183 Crew       1,551.6 BP       TCS 100    TH 64    EM 0
4000 km/s      Armour 4-26       Shields 0-0       HTK 37      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 22      PPV 30.76
Maint Life 2.54 Years     MSP 533    AFR 73%    IFR 1.0%    1YR 116    5YR 1,736    Max Repair 450.0000 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Internal Fusion Drive  EP400.00 (1)    Power 400.0    Fuel Use 28.28%    Signature 64.0000    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 63.6 billion km (184 days at full power)

45.0cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser (1)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6,250 km/s     Power 53-6     RM 60,000 km    ROF 45       
Single Gauss Cannon R400-100 Turret (2x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R320-TS6250 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 320,000 km   TS: 6,250 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Beam Fire Control R40-TS25000 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 40,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor R13-PB30 (1)     Total Power Output 13    Exp 15%

Active Search Sensor AS19-R80 (30%) (1)     GPS 288     Range 19.6m km    Resolution 80

ECM 20

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


I know some will criticize having PD on such a small ship that isn't meant for such roles, but its important o me that every ship has some active defense against missiles. That way, when they are grouped together they can all contribute to shooting down missiles shot at the whole squadron. I think it would add up. I also like having some PD weapons from a purely RP standpoint; I don't believe anyone would make a warship without some secondary defense weapons.

[Tyrannus Rex]

It is a nice ship, and is not too much to build. A good bolster to either defense forces or a wolf-pack grouping style of ships.

[Ulzgoroth]

I have nothing against the ship's concept, though personally I wouldn't tend to consider it a frigate 

I would, however, note that if you throw the 'tackle' force into the teeth of a missile-armed opponent it's going to need to be able to bear the brunt of their fire. You might need some kind of supplemental missile defense vessels to accompany the Travalgars in those situations where their organic PD battery won't hold up.

A couple petty engineering notes:
-Your reactor generates more than double the power your ship actually uses. You could make some kind of savings there, surely. (Whether it's worth the research, assuming the depicted reactor is off-the-shelf, is your call.)

-I think you would find the Gauss turrets become more efficient if built as quad turrets of smaller weapons. From here dual and quad turrets are progressively more efficient compared to an equal number of individually-mounted weapons. And Gauss guns are efficiently divisible: 4x 150 ton Gauss guns cost exactly the same as 1x 600 ton gun and produce the same number of hits on average. Put those together and a quad-turret of 25% Gauss guns should be slightly cheaper, smaller, and more dependable than a single turreted 100% Gauss gun.

[Borealis4x (OP)]

I have nothing against the ship's concept, though personally I wouldn't tend to consider it a frigate 

I would, however, note that if you throw the 'tackle' force into the teeth of a missile-armed opponent it's going to need to be able to bear the brunt of their fire. You might need some kind of supplemental missile defense vessels to accompany the Travalgars in those situations where their organic PD battery won't hold up.

A couple petty engineering notes:
-Your reactor generates more than double the power your ship actually uses. You could make some kind of savings there, surely. (Whether it's worth the research, assuming the depicted reactor is off-the-shelf, is your call.)

-I think you would find the Gauss turrets become more efficient if built as quad turrets of smaller weapons. From here dual and quad turrets are progressively more efficient compared to an equal number of individually-mounted weapons. And Gauss guns are efficiently divisible: 4x 150 ton Gauss guns cost exactly the same as 1x 600 ton gun and produce the same number of hits on average. Put those together and a quad-turret of 25% Gauss guns should be slightly cheaper, smaller, and more dependable than a single turreted 100% Gauss gun.

Quad-Gauss sounds great, but I have no idea how to make one a mere 150 tons. I know you can reduce the size dramatically by reducing the accuracy of the GGs, but the cost seems pretty steep, especially for a PD gun...

Taking your advice, I shrunk the power-plant and the Gauss cannons considerably, allowing me to add more PD, range and maintenance. 

Code: [Select]

Trafalgar class Frigate (P)      4,996 tons       168 Crew       1,484.8 BP       TCS 100    TH 64    EM 0
4003 km/s      Armour 4-26       Shields 0-0       HTK 41      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 23      PPV 21.84
Maint Life 3.40 Years     MSP 757    AFR 67%    IFR 0.9%    1YR 100    5YR 1,497    Max Repair 450.0000 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Internal Fusion Drive  EP400.00 (1)    Power 400.0    Fuel Use 28.28%    Signature 64.0000    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 950,000 Litres    Range 121 billion km (349 days at full power)

45.0cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser (1)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6,250 km/s     Power 53-6     RM 60,000 km    ROF 45       
Twin Gauss Cannon R400-25.00 Turret (2x8)    Range 40,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R320-TS6250 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 320,000 km   TS: 6,250 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Beam Fire Control R40-TS25000 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 40,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor R6-PB30 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Exp 15%

Active Search Sensor AS19-R80 (30%) (1)     GPS 288     Range 19.6m km    Resolution 80
Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 4     Range 4.5m km    MCR 408.7k km    Resolution 1

ECM 20

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes



[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

I have nothing against the ship's concept, though personally I wouldn't tend to consider it a frigate 

I would, however, note that if you throw the 'tackle' force into the teeth of a missile-armed opponent it's going to need to be able to bear the brunt of their fire. You might need some kind of supplemental missile defense vessels to accompany the Travalgars in those situations where their organic PD battery won't hold up.

A couple petty engineering notes:
-Your reactor generates more than double the power your ship actually uses. You could make some kind of savings there, surely. (Whether it's worth the research, assuming the depicted reactor is off-the-shelf, is your call.)

-I think you would find the Gauss turrets become more efficient if built as quad turrets of smaller weapons. From here dual and quad turrets are progressively more efficient compared to an equal number of individually-mounted weapons. And Gauss guns are efficiently divisible: 4x 150 ton Gauss guns cost exactly the same as 1x 600 ton gun and produce the same number of hits on average. Put those together and a quad-turret of 25% Gauss guns should be slightly cheaper, smaller, and more dependable than a single turreted 100% Gauss gun.

There has been a lot of argument over this, but lower % weapons leak which can be fatal for a missile PD system.  Also, quad turrets are currently bugged so that they burn 4x as much MSP as they should.  The extra maintenance slots more than take up the space savings.

[Ulzgoroth]

Quad-Gauss sounds great, but I have no idea how to make one a mere 150 tons. I know you can reduce the size dramatically by reducing the accuracy of the GGs, but the cost seems pretty steep, especially for a PD gun...

4x150 tons means 4 150 ton guns, not 4 guns that weigh 150 tons combined.

In terms of expected hits, smaller Gauss guns almost exactly break even. What you lose in accuracy you make up in volume of fire. The only friction is rounding issues.

However, this is probably a good point:

There has been a lot of argument over this, but lower % weapons leak which can be fatal for a missile PD system.  Also, quad turrets are currently bugged so that they burn 4x as much MSP as they should.  The extra maintenance slots more than take up the space savings.

At high chances to hit the chance for 4x small guns to entirely fail to connect is a lot higher than for 1x big gun. In terms of expected hits they make it up by making larger numbers of hits some of the time, but that may not be a satisfactory compensation in some situations.

I don't know about the MSP thing, but put it together and you might have been better off with the original design for the defense turret.

[Borealis4x (OP)]

Quad-Gauss sounds great, but I have no idea how to make one a mere 150 tons. I know you can reduce the size dramatically by reducing the accuracy of the GGs, but the cost seems pretty steep, especially for a PD gun...

4x150 tons means 4 150 ton guns, not 4 guns that weigh 150 tons combined.

In terms of expected hits, smaller Gauss guns almost exactly break even. What you lose in accuracy you make up in volume of fire. The only friction is rounding issues.

However, this is probably a good point:

There has been a lot of argument over this, but lower % weapons leak which can be fatal for a missile PD system.  Also, quad turrets are currently bugged so that they burn 4x as much MSP as they should.  The extra maintenance slots more than take up the space savings.

At high chances to hit the chance for 4x small guns to entirely fail to connect is a lot higher than for 1x big gun. In terms of expected hits they make it up by making larger numbers of hits some of the time, but that may not be a satisfactory compensation in some situations.

I don't know about the MSP thing, but put it together and you might have been better off with the original design for the defense turret.

I compromised and replaced my single turret with a twin turret at 25% accuracy. Although I suppose that just makes my overall PD 50% as effective...

[Ulzgoroth]

I compromised and replaced my single turret with a twin turret at 25% accuracy.

That's half as much gunpower though? 2x25% = 50%, and your original turret was 100%...

[Borealis4x (OP)]

I compromised and replaced my single turret with a twin turret at 25% accuracy.

That's half as much gunpower though? 2x25% = 50%, and your original turret was 100%...

Yeah, it probably not the best option.

EDIT: I managed to sacrifice range in exchange for 2 twin Gauss turrets.

Code: [Select]

Trafalgar class Frigate (P)      5,000 tons       180 Crew       1,534 BP       TCS 100    TH 64    EM 0
4000 km/s      Armour 4-26       Shields 0-0       HTK 37      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 23      PPV 28.68
Maint Life 3.29 Years     MSP 735    AFR 67%    IFR 0.9%    1YR 102    5YR 1,537    Max Repair 450.0000 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Internal Fusion Drive  EP400.00 (1)    Power 400.0    Fuel Use 28.28%    Signature 64.0000    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 591,000 Litres    Range 75.2 billion km (217 days at full power)

45.0cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser (1)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6,250 km/s     Power 53-6     RM 60,000 km    ROF 45       
Twin Gauss Cannon R400-50.0 Turret (2x8)    Range 40,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R320-TS6250 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 320,000 km   TS: 6,250 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Beam Fire Control R40-TS25000 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 40,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor R6-PB30 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Exp 15%

Active Search Sensor AS19-R80 (30%) (1)     GPS 288     Range 19.6m km    Resolution 80
Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 4     Range 4.5m km    MCR 408.7k km    Resolution 1

ECM 20

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

This was a good crash-course on the benefit of turrets. It seems that having a turret made up of two guns with 50% to hit is more HS efficient than a single barreled version of that gun with a 100% chance to hit.

EDIT:

I made a heavy version of the frigate as an experiment, accentuating speed and ECM to dodge missiles.

Code: [Select]

Bull Run class Heavy Frigate (P)      8,000 tons       256 Crew       2,571.8 BP       TCS 160    TH 192    EM 0
7500 km/s      Armour 4-35       Shields 0-0       HTK 47      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 24      PPV 28.68
Maint Life 1.42 Years     MSP 1,323    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 720    5YR 10,797    Max Repair 1350.0000 MSP
Captain    Control Rating 4   BRG   AUX   ENG   CIC   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Internal Fusion Drive  EP1200.00 (1)    Power 1200.0    Fuel Use 16.33%    Signature 192.0000    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 752,000 Litres    Range 103.6 billion km (159 days at full power)

45.0cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser (1)    Range 320,000km     TS: 7,500 km/s     Power 53-6     RM 60,000 km    ROF 45       
Twin Gauss Cannon R400-50.0 Turret (2x8)    Range 40,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 40,000 km    ROF 5       
Beam Fire Control R320-TS6250 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 320,000 km   TS: 6,250 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Beam Fire Control R40-TS25000 (30%) (1)     Max Range: 40,000 km   TS: 25,000 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor R6-PB30 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Exp 15%

Active Search Sensor AS19-R80 (30%) (1)     GPS 288     Range 19.6m km    Resolution 80
Active Search Sensor AS4-R1 (30%) (1)     GPS 4     Range 4.5m km    MCR 408.7k km    Resolution 1

ECM 20

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes



[Marslettuce]

That ship is astonishingly slow for IF. It's moving at base-level Ion speeds. If your enemy has even ion or magneto-plasma tech, they're going to kite you to death. Also, your range is at least 3x too large. Boost engine size and massively increase engine boost percentage. At least 110%. Your beam ships need to be as fast as possible to close on the enemy.

[Droll]

You should have called it a Gungine

[Jorgen_CAB]

If you want to look at Gauss and efficiency you should look at this thread.... http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11325.0

My recommendation is several 17% single turrets... that is the most efficient turret you can get because of how the mechanics works. The increase in efficiency of more barrels does not make PD turrets better. More guns in turrets only make sens for anti-ship or dual purpose laser turrets and when you want to armour the turret... which you probably don't want on PD turrets.

It also is nice because each turret is between 60-70 tons each so easy to fit into a ship between all the other components and can be used as a filler or tweaked with other components such as engineering, fuel, armour etc...

[Borealis4x (OP)]

That ship is astonishingly slow for IF. It's moving at base-level Ion speeds. If your enemy has even ion or magneto-plasma tech, they're going to kite you to death. Also, your range is at least 3x too large. Boost engine size and massively increase engine boost percentage. At least 110%. Your beam ships need to be as fast as possible to close on the enemy.

How fast should they be going? I've tried the same engines boosted to 150% and 200% but they get such smeg fuel economy that they can hardly make it out of the Sol jumpgate.

[Jorgen_CAB]

That ship is astonishingly slow for IF. It's moving at base-level Ion speeds. If your enemy has even ion or magneto-plasma tech, they're going to kite you to death. Also, your range is at least 3x too large. Boost engine size and massively increase engine boost percentage. At least 110%. Your beam ships need to be as fast as possible to close on the enemy.

How fast should they be going? I've tried the same engines boosted to 150% and 200% but they get such smeg fuel economy that they can hardly make it out of the Sol jumpgate.

It completely depends on your enemies and how you want the sips to be used. You can't say that one speed is better than the next unless you put it into context.

Whatever you choose there is a trade off between cost, fuel and mission tonnage.

[macks]

Yeah it seems like the amount of HS dedicated to your engine is a little low. At magnetic fusion, my beam fleets have 33% of their mass in engines, which lets me have 150% boost and adequate range. I definitely like the single gigantic beam on corvette size ships (5000t). Smaller corvettes can be manufactured very quickly, so losing some to having not quite enough armor is fine.