Stealth Explorer?

[Borealis4x (OP)]

Is it a good idea to try and make your exploration jump ship double as a stealth ship that can spot targets with passive sensors while avoiding detection? I thought it would be a good idea since then they wouldn't be ambushed by enemies and you could put an ELINT module on it to gain intelligence about your enemies as soon as you found them.

Experimenting with Ion-level tech, this seems impractical at the moment. The passive sensors need to be huge, which means so does the cloak and jump-drive leaving little room for engines, maintenance, or grav/geo sensors.

Has anyone else ever tried making something like this? Such a ship would have:

- At least two engines for redundancy
- At least 24 month deployment time and Maint Life
- At least one of each grav/geo sensors
- Jump Drive and Cloak
- ELINT Modual
- Both types of passive sensors

[Ulzgoroth]

I really wouldn't put grav and geo sensors and a jump drive all on one hull even before trying to cram a stealth scoutship into it as well...

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

I really wouldn't put grav and geo sensors and a jump drive all on one hull even before trying to cram a stealth scoutship into it as well...

I wouldn't either, but there is merit to putting small passives on geosurvey ships to find small alien outposts and as an early warning when approaching a major population center.

[Ulzgoroth]

Honestly I'd say there's merit to small passives on almost anything unless it's always going to be flying in formation with a bigger passive sensor. Occasionally the cost and tonnage outweighs that merit.

[amram]

I wanted to play around with max technology, but wanted the AI to have the same toys as I did, so I made research rate a bit ridiculous and had everything done in a couple years.

I now have these for survey ships:

Code: [Select]

SS Quest 001  (Quest class Survey Ship)      6,000 tons       172 Crew       9,341.5 BP       TCS 1    TH 41    EM 0
34502 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 6-29       Shields 0-0       HTK 58      Sensors 75/75/5/5      DCR 14      PPV 0
Maint Life 9.22 Years     MSP 13,867    AFR 20%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 294    5YR 4,403    Max Repair 3726.0000 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Morale Check Required   

J6250(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 6250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

HS023 P090 F010 T001 Photonic Drive  EP2070.00 (2)    Power 4140.0    Fuel Use 5.07%    Signature 20.7000    Explosion 9%
Fuel Capacity 816,000 Litres    Range 483.2 billion km (162 days at full power)

EM Sensor EM1.0-75.0 (1)     Sensitivity 75.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-75.0 (1)     Sensitivity 75.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Phased Gravitational Sensors (1)   5 Survey Points Per Hour
Phased Geological Sensors (1)   5 Survey Points Per Hour
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.500% of normal

ECM 100
Class design window:  https://prnt.sc/swwg9c

Only thing I'm missing is the ELINT module, because this ship isn't going to be hanging our near hostiles, it just wants to know about them before they know about it, and then run like hell if detected.


I join the tasks of geo, grav, and jump tender into one for the purpose of reducing my own micro - even at lower tech, my survey ships generally carry both sensors, and once feasible, the jump drive too.  Fewer ships to manage as the unexplored fringes increase exponentially.  Fewer yards spent on surveying since its often difficult to impossible to multipurpose one design at lower tech levels to get tender, grav, and geo out of it without resorting to the gamey build a design with everything, tool for that, make sub designs with one of the two sensors replaced, and build those as the separate surveyors.

Less resources dumped into the task since there are savings in armor, fuel tanks, fuel usage, engines, and science departments by combining hulls versus split.  Same cost in geo/grav sensors either way.  Ditto for the tenders.  If the jump drives are survey ship sized, then I need one tender for every system anyways, might as well just continue with one ship per system and embed the drive.  If its warship sized(since surveyors are often smaller - especially mine), I'm spending more than I need to, because surveyors enter every system, warships go where there's a fight or important planets or positions to defend, I need only enough such tenders to extend a couple lines of travel, not all lines of travel as surveyors would.

There's value to an independent surveyor that needs no assistance to completely finish a system, which is also the sole vessel placed at risk if it blunders into hostiles.

The stealth I lumped in because, well, at this tech level, its hardly expensive in comparison, and greatly increases the chance the surveyor sees them first and can run away without being shot at, so I don't have to worry about its replacement to finish the job - less micro.  If I lose one, I'll evaluate whether it needs a larger thermal to have the warning it needs to survive or not, and if that's worth throwing in.

Maintenance life is a bit overkill, done to push down the yearly MSP costs, a little more spent up front to spend a lot less over its lifetime.

Sometimes the kitchen sink is better than a hose and bucket, even if they both get the job done.

[Iceranger]

I wanted to play around with max technology, but wanted the AI to have the same toys as I did, so I made research rate a bit ridiculous and had everything done in a couple years.

I now have these for survey ships:

Code: [Select]

SS Quest 001  (Quest class Survey Ship)      6,000 tons       172 Crew       9,341.5 BP       TCS 1    TH 41    EM 0
34502 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 6-29       Shields 0-0       HTK 58      Sensors 75/75/5/5      DCR 14      PPV 0
Maint Life 9.22 Years     MSP 13,867    AFR 20%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 294    5YR 4,403    Max Repair 3726.0000 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Morale Check Required   

J6250(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 6250 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

HS023 P090 F010 T001 Photonic Drive  EP2070.00 (2)    Power 4140.0    Fuel Use 5.07%    Signature 20.7000    Explosion 9%
Fuel Capacity 816,000 Litres    Range 483.2 billion km (162 days at full power)

EM Sensor EM1.0-75.0 (1)     Sensitivity 75.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-75.0 (1)     Sensitivity 75.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Phased Gravitational Sensors (1)   5 Survey Points Per Hour
Phased Geological Sensors (1)   5 Survey Points Per Hour
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.500% of normal

ECM 100
Class design window:  https://prnt.sc/swwg9c

Only thing I'm missing is the ELINT module, because this ship isn't going to be hanging our near hostiles, it just wants to know about them before they know about it, and then run like hell if detected.


I join the tasks of geo, grav, and jump tender into one for the purpose of reducing my own micro - even at lower tech, my survey ships generally carry both sensors, and once feasible, the jump drive too.  Fewer ships to manage as the unexplored fringes increase exponentially.  Fewer yards spent on surveying since its often difficult to impossible to multipurpose one design at lower tech levels to get tender, grav, and geo out of it without resorting to the gamey build a design with everything, tool for that, make sub designs with one of the two sensors replaced, and build those as the separate surveyors.

Less resources dumped into the task since there are savings in armor, fuel tanks, fuel usage, engines, and science departments by combining hulls versus split.  Same cost in geo/grav sensors either way.  Ditto for the tenders.  If the jump drives are survey ship sized, then I need one tender for every system anyways, might as well just continue with one ship per system and embed the drive.  If its warship sized(since surveyors are often smaller - especially mine), I'm spending more than I need to, because surveyors enter every system, warships go where there's a fight or important planets or positions to defend, I need only enough such tenders to extend a couple lines of travel, not all lines of travel as surveyors would.

There's value to an independent surveyor that needs no assistance to completely finish a system, which is also the sole vessel placed at risk if it blunders into hostiles.

The stealth I lumped in because, well, at this tech level, its hardly expensive in comparison, and greatly increases the chance the surveyor sees them first and can run away without being shot at, so I don't have to worry about its replacement to finish the job - less micro.  If I lose one, I'll evaluate whether it needs a larger thermal to have the warning it needs to survive or not, and if that's worth throwing in.

Maintenance life is a bit overkill, done to push down the yearly MSP costs, a little more spent up front to spend a lot less over its lifetime.

Sometimes the kitchen sink is better than a hose and bucket, even if they both get the job done.

If you can squeeze down to sub 5kt, it will become totally invisible to active sensors. Thus it cannot be lock on and fired at. The only way harm can come its way is thermal guided missiles. 

[amram]

I assumed it would still be subject to MCR?

I'm going to guess this is another of the various rounding bugs where precision is dropped in favour of an int, TCS in this case, and once I push below 5kt, the effective size falls below 0.5HS and rounds down to zero, correct?

Code: [Select]

Quest - Copy class Survey Ship (P)      5,000 tons       159 Crew       5,309.5 BP       TCS 0    TH 27    EM 0
27004 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 5-26       Shields 0-0       HTK 50      Sensors 75/75/5/5      DCR 13      PPV 0
Maint Life 12.43 Years     MSP 9,127    AFR 15%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 109    5YR 1,639    Max Repair 2025.0000 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   SCI   
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Morale Check Required   

J5000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 5000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

HS018 P075 F010 T001 Photonic Drive  EP1350.00 (2)    Power 2700.0    Fuel Use 3.63%    Signature 13.5000    Explosion 7%
Fuel Capacity 487,000 Litres    Range 482.9 billion km (206 days at full power)

EM Sensor EM1.0-75.0 (1)     Sensitivity 75.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-75.0 (1)     Sensitivity 75.0     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  68.5m km
Phased Gravitational Sensors (1)   5 Survey Points Per Hour
Phased Geological Sensors (1)   5 Survey Points Per Hour
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.500% of normal

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Under 5000 tons, its 99.9838 exact size, or 4999.19 tons.  So the effective TCS should be 24.99595 tons, or 0.499919, Aurora just goes with 0 in the display.  Sometimes what we see is what it works with, sometimes we see rounded while the game uses more precision.  Either way, it's down to being a size 10 missile as far as actives are concerned if its still detectable, and if not, well....

parts list:
https://prnt.sc/sx04a1

Slightly less engine, resulting in a loss of 7500km/s, though 27km/sec is still quite quick.  Side benefit of lowering thermal from 41 to 27, just 65% of previous - so it'll be harder still to see thermally.

The reduced engine and reduction in cloak and jump drive size got the total down almost under the lower drive and cloak size limits.  Assuming TCS 0 is respected and actives cannot see it, the ECM is pointless so it was dropped.  That got it under 5kt by almost 100t.

Then realised I hadn't given it a science department, but it wouldn't quite fit.  Dropped a bit of engineering space and it all works out.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I'm pretty sure that anything smaller that 15t is counted as 15t which is the same as a size 6 missile.

So it does not matter if the cloak make the ship smaller than 15t... the ship will still be detected with an AMM sensor at that range. Unless something have changed from VB6 to C# that is.

[amram]

Thats what I expected to result.

[Zincat]

At that tech level though, it's safe to assume that even res 1 sensors would have huge range. So, no chance to slip by a guarded jumppoint or get close to a planet/installation with Res1 actives.

If you do manage to get one of those inside a system though.... Could be an almost invisible ship that you leave there, to see what's going on in the system, or to stealth survey/grav survey. It would probably be best to invest into more powerful passive sensors for that mission profile.

All things considered, an interesting concept. The tech level to make it work though.... 

[Iceranger]

I'm pretty sure that anything smaller that 15t is counted as 15t which is the same as a size 6 missile.

So it does not matter if the cloak make the ship smaller than 15t... the ship will still be detected with an AMM sensor at that range. Unless something have changed from VB6 to C# that is.

Indeed, just tested and in C# such ships are detected as 15t. It existed in VB6 though.