CIWS

[Paul M (OP)]

Basically I'm baffled.  When I read the stats on the Wolver versions I have salvaged and installed in a design I get:

CIWS-250 (1x12)    Range 1000 km     TS: 25000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit

Based on this I'd expect it can engage no more than 12 inbounds and that it should shoot down no more than 12*.5= 6 of them on average.   This is not what I see in practice where it stops exactly 12 missiles (or the equivalent) virtually every time.  It also looks different than what I expected from the Wiki.

Can someone enlighten me to what this thing is capable of, please?

[L0ckAndL0ad]

Crew Training bonus maybe? Combat log could provide details on hit chance details. Also, what is the sample size? I would certainly bet that in a series of many missile waves, you'd see a wide difference in interception count. Sometimes you are more lucky. Sometimes you are not. I had to deal with AMM spam targeting beam fighters (equipped with railguns). I shot down hundreds (maybe couple of thousands?) of missiles over the course of several hours. Lost 2 fighters out of 12 as a result. But I was shooting down all missiles, most of the time.

[Steve Walmsley]

Basically I'm baffled.  When I read the stats on the Wolver versions I have salvaged and installed in a design I get:

CIWS-250 (1x12)    Range 1000 km     TS: 25000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit

Based on this I'd expect it can engage no more than 12 inbounds and that it should shoot down no more than 12*.5= 6 of them on average.   This is not what I see in practice where it stops exactly 12 missiles (or the equivalent) virtually every time.  It also looks different than what I expected from the Wiki.

Can someone enlighten me to what this thing is capable of, please?

I've checked VB6 code. It is 50% x crew grade (including any TF modifiers) minus any penalty for missiles faster than tracking speed.

What is the events log saying for each shot?

[Paul M (OP)]

Here is the log:
A harpoon-A has 1 pt of armour so needs 2 hits to kill.
I'm only guessing the Yamato has the same CIWS as what I recovered from other wrecks.
All missiles are slower than the tracking speed of the system I salvaged.


21st December 2332 05:16:58,Gliese 908,2x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:16:58,Gliese 908,4x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:16:58,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 85%: (Missile Speed 22900 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 24 x GradeBonus 29.4%
21st December 2332 05:16:58,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:16:58,Gliese 908,Missile #1 Missed
21st December 2332 05:16:58,Gliese 908,Strength 6 Nuclear Detonation x1 detected!
((12 hits by the CIWS))


21st December 2332 05:17:53,Gliese 908,2x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:17:53,Gliese 908,4x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:17:53,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:17:53,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 82%: (Missile Speed 22900 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 24 x GradeBonus 25.2%
21st December 2332 05:17:53,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:17:53,Gliese 908,Strength 6 Nuclear Detonation x2 detected!
((12 hits by the CIWS))


21st December 2332 05:18:43,Gliese 908,3x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:18:43,Gliese 908,4x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:18:43,Gliese 908,Salvo of 1x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 85%: (Missile Speed 22900 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 24 x GradeBonus 29.4%
21st December 2332 05:18:43,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:18:43,Gliese 908,Strength 6 Nuclear Detonation x1 detected!
((14 hits by the CIWS))

21st December 2332 05:19:33,Gliese 908,2x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:19:33,Gliese 908,4x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:19:33,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 82%: (Missile Speed 22900 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 24 x GradeBonus 25.2%
21st December 2332 05:19:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:19:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:19:33,Gliese 908,Strength 6 Nuclear Detonation x2 detected!
((12 hits by the CIWS))


21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 85%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 16.8%
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Missile #2 Missed
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Salvo of 4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 98%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 35.7%
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Missile #2 Missed
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:19:53,Gliese 908,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x4 detected!
((10 hits by the CIWS))


21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,4x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,Salvo of 4x Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 85%: (Missile Speed 22900 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 24 x GradeBonus 29.4%
21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 6 points of damage from Harpoon-A Anti-ship Missile (Batch 2)
21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,Missile #3 Missed
21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,Missile #4 Missed
21st December 2332 05:20:23,Gliese 908,Strength 6 Nuclear Detonation x2 detected!
((8 hits by the CIWS))

21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 85%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 16.8%
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Salvo of 4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 98%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 35.7%
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:20:28,Gliese 908,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x6 detected!
((10 hits by the CIWS))

21st December 2332 05:20:58,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:20:58,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:20:58,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
((12 hits by the CIWS))

21st December 2332 05:21:03,Gliese 908,2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:21:03,Gliese 908,2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
((4 hits by the CIWS))

21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Salvo of 4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 98%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 35.7%
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Missile #2 Missed
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 82%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 12.6%
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:21:33,Gliese 908,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x5 detected!
((10 hits by the CIWS))


21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 82%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 12.6%
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Missile #1 Missed
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 85%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 16.8%
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Missile #2 Missed
21st December 2332 05:22:08,Gliese 908,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x2 detected!
((12 hits by the CIWS))


21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) destroyed by point blank point defence fire
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Salvo of 2x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 82%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 12.6%
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Missile #2 Missed
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Salvo of 4x Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5) has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 98%: (Missile Speed 16000 km/s / Target Speed 8379 km/s) x Missile Agility 38 x GradeBonus 35.7%
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Yamato 002 hit by 5 points of damage from Arrow Anti-ship Missile (Batch 5)
21st December 2332 05:22:38,Gliese 908,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x5 detected!
((10 hits by the CIWS))

The groups are coming in as separate salvos as the ships are in a formation.  The only reason 10 Arrows are usually stopped seems to be it targets 2x4 (CL launched) + 1x2 (DD launched) salvos rather than 3x4 (CL launched) salvos or 2x2 (DD launched) and 1x4(CL launched) salovs.
The 2xCAs launched each 4xHarpoon-As
The 3xCLs launched each 4xArrow
The 2xDDs launched each 2xArrow
The DD and CL Arrows should arrive as a group, the CA Harpoon-As also.

[Steve Walmsley]

There will be events on the CIWS side that state the intercept chance. I assume this is an NPR defending and you are attacking?

You would be able to see the NPR events in designer mode

[Paul M (OP)]

Yes the NCN is bombarding a wolver ship.

I would like to avoid using the designer mode as it is brutal on fog of war.  It is pretty much impossible to unread stuff so to speak!

My main issue is that I have salvaged wolver CIWS that I have put into a design (so I could see them) and I have read the wiki on the system itself.  The wiki says it is a dual guass turret (or two single guass turrets I'm not sure how to read the wiki on this point).  So far so good.  The CIWS system gives a ROF of 5.  So that means 10 shots from the system with a 50% chance to hit.  That using proper statistics gives a mean between 4 and 5 intercepted.

The status line from the design is:  CIWS-250 (1x12)    Range 1000 km     TS: 25000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Range is clear.  TS is also clear (that seems exceptionally fast for only 10% gearing though?).  Base to hit is also clear.   ROF 5 is essentially clear.

What isn't is:  (1x12) what is this about?   ROF 5 doesn't pass with (1x12) in my view.

I'm just not sure how to read that status line.  I also figure maybe there are multiple units on board....what do the experts say should I interpret 8-14 stopped missiles with an average around 12 as there is 3 such systems aboard the Wolver?


A few comments though:

CIWS being a self contained automated system should gain no benefit or malus from crew status or crew grade.  It should fire at its Base to Hit always.   Otherwise it is not what the label says in my way of thinking anyway.

Please change how combat experience is awarded for C#.   Ships which fire weapons on a hostile target should gain experience.  Ships that conduct damage control should also gain experience.  I am sure the munchkins can manipulate this by firing on asteroids or whatever but who cares?  It is harder to NOT cheat in the game then it is to cheat, one more thing won't matter.  What I am seeing is that when my layered defense works like it should then my crews gain no experience regardless they were in intense combat.   The time when a crew gets experience is pointless as a ship taking damage is about 95% likely to be killed.  Basically an elite NCN warship has a crew grade of 34%...I see no way to increase it.   Counter-missiles, DPPD turrets and shields are all intended to stop the ship from taking damage.  Looking at the attack I see one ship with 35.7% crew grade but I've no idea where that comes from as I thought 34% was max training value.

Very minor point: this is the first Yamato class vessel the NCN has encountered why is called Yamato 002???  There seems a glitch in the auto numbering system!

[Garfunkel]

Very minor point: this is the first Yamato class vessel the NCN has encountered why is called Yamato 002???  There seems a glitch in the auto numbering system!

Yes, that's fixed in 7.10 I think. The workaround is to use the "Re-number ship hulls" button in Intelligence window for each class. I don't recall if SM mode needs to be on or not.

What isn't is:  (1x12) what is this about?

If I remember it right, it means that there is a single turret with 12 guns or 12 turrets with a single gun each. And then the guns each fire 5 shots.

[Steve Walmsley]

I assume the alien design only has one CIWS?

[BAGrimm]

IIRC, and if I understand the mechanics correctly, which mind you I may not, ROF 5 means it can fire every increment, while (1x12) shows one such weapon firing a total of 12 shots each time it fires.  As I believe a CIWS is supposed to be effectively 2 gauss cannons on a turret, this seems to mean 2 cannons at gauss rate of fire 6.  It looks to me like that ship has at least 2 such systems to achieve the hit rates noted.

[Father Tim]

The CIWS system gives a ROF of 5.  So that means 10 shots from the system

Incorrect.  The 'ROF 5' notation is a holdover from standard beam weapon notation and refers to firing every five seconds.

What isn't [clear] is:  (1x12) what is this about?   ROF 5 doesn't pass with (1x12) in my view.

I think it means one CIWS installation with 12 shots.

But the second-best way (after peeking with Designer Mode) to figure out what's going on is to create a copy of your database, load the copy, SM create a you-controlled NPR, Fast-OOB it a missile ship, and have the 'enemy' fire missiles at one of your ships with salvaged Wolver CIWS system.  The event log will then show you all the shots your taking at what chance to hit.

[Paul M (OP)]

I assume the alien design only has one CIWS?

My best guess is that it doesn't, I am seeing between 8-14 intercepts...I'd assume it has 2 CIWS installed.  2 systems with 24 shots producing what I am seeing is reasonable.  There even could be 3 systems as the mean intercepts is high for 2, but the sample size is small.

Ahsooo...ROF 5 is for that...ok now the 1x12 means what I thought originally.  The existence of ECCM on the CIWS means my idea of dropping the armour in favor of ECM will not work.

Thanks everyone for the assistance...means more ships are needed...and the Harpoon-A (1pt armour) will remain the favored version. 

Added in Edit: ok that is the numbering thing...I was certain it was like that as well as this is the first of that class and there is only one and it got number 002.  I'm manually fix this in the future.