Author Topic: Time....  (Read 7179 times)

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Offline Chairman (OP)

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Time....
« on: December 14, 2009, 03:20:04 AM »
Got a irritating problem with time. When I press 30 days, it only advances 6 hours up to sometimes 8 days, but never 30 days :(
 

Offline ZimRathbone

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Re: Time....
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 06:28:37 AM »
Aurora is set up to interupt the processing if something possibly interesting is happening (for example your finding a new warp point in a system, or encountering an unknown fleet etc), this is to give you a chance to react in the case that the event may change your plans.  This ALSO happens if something interesting is happening to an NPR that you may not be able to see.  Once you get a little way into a campaign it is rare indeed for a month to go past without something to react to (having said that I just had 2 30 day turns complete without any interuptions - so it does happen)
Slàinte,

Mike
 

Offline Chairman (OP)

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Re: Time....
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 02:36:44 AM »
Hmmm, thinks it is irritating. Ok if something happens to me I can buy it, but if a race out "there" finds something interresting, why should I want to know it???

I have set my game to automatic turns, but someone is finding interresting stuffs almost every second, 5 - 15 seconds is the norm...
It´s like seeing one of those slow tree dwelling mammals moving over the screen....
 

Offline ZimRathbone

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Re: Time....
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 06:38:20 AM »
Quote from: "Chairman"
Hmmm, thinks it is irritating. Ok if something happens to me I can buy it, but if a race out "there" finds something interresting, why should I want to know it???

I have set my game to automatic turns, but someone is finding interresting stuffs almost every second, 5 - 15 seconds is the norm...
It´s like seeing one of those slow tree dwelling mammals moving over the screen....

I suspect that you have a couple of NPRs engaged in a battle.   Use the automated turns option.  Click the check box at the top of the System Map (F3) , and run from there.  The program will only stop if there is an event that affects the current default race.  This WILL be a bit slower if there is serious action going on - I sometimes go off to create a good source of brownian motion at this sort of time as it can take a liitle while!
Slàinte,

Mike
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Time....
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 08:23:11 AM »
Quote from: "Chairman"
Hmmm, thinks it is irritating. Ok if something happens to me I can buy it, but if a race out "there" finds something interresting, why should I want to know it???

I have set my game to automatic turns, but someone is finding interresting stuffs almost every second, 5 - 15 seconds is the norm...
It´s like seeing one of those slow tree dwelling mammals moving over the screen....
The occasional slowdowns are the penalty for having realistic non-player races that behave according to the same rules as your own race. Even more so in v4.8 with the new civilian contracts. I could prevent the program from shortening the increments when NPRs detect something interesting but if that something interesting was your homeworld, they would likely appear in orbit at the end of the long increment :). As a player you may even witness two NPRs fighting, which would look very odd if they didn't use the same time increment system as your own Empire.

However, if you have had short increments of a few seconds for a long time then it is possible there is a bug. Are you getting constant 5 second increments or do you get them for a while before time goes back to longer increments?

Steve
 

Offline Chairman (OP)

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Re: Time....
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 12:31:04 PM »
No, it varies, mostly betwen 15-40 seconds, sometime up to 6 hours but mostly in the seconds...
If its a battle it´s been going on for 50 hours...., must bee two living in the same system, if that is possible?
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Time....
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 11:08:54 PM »
Quote from: "Chairman"
No, it varies, mostly betwen 15-40 seconds, sometime up to 6 hours but mostly in the seconds...
If its a battle it´s been going on for 50 hours...., must bee two living in the same system, if that is possible?

I saw something similar when I had some ships being chased down by Precursors. I toyed with them a bit, keeping them outside of active range and tracking them on thermals. I then made the mistake of closing. Fecking 13,000 kps missiles that I couldn't see until the 5 seconds before they impacted.  :(

Offline Cernunnos

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Re: Time....
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 05:27:50 PM »
Forgive my question, as I am /very/ new to this community (about hmm... 8 hours new, as a matter of fact ;))

Also, I'd just like to take the opportunity to say this game is fantastic! I came across it this morning in a forum I frequent and I have been playing it ever since... much to my shame as there were a number of things I had to do today but didn't get around to :)
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Time....
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 09:40:44 PM »
Quote from: "Cernunnos"
but would it not be possible to have the game count 'interesting' as being any interesting thing that your race can perceive.

I think the answer to your question is "that's what the game's trying to do, but the game has to (temporarily) stop if something interesting happens to an NPR so the NPR decision routines can be executed (they only work between updates)".  For all the new folks out there, in case no one's told you, you should run with the "Events" (ctrl-F3) window open.  Typically, you'll want to run with it set (the pull-down at the top) to your empire, but as a beginner you might instead want to look at the Space Master (SM) view (you'll need to go into SM mode before opening the window to have this view available - ctrl-S turns it on, ctrl-O turns it off).

There are two types of events:

1)  "Interrupt" events - these are the ones that you might want to react to: things like detecting a new ship from an alien race; having one of your TG finish its orders, detecting a missile coming at you :-) ) that the situation needed to be fixed.  At some point in there, Steve launched a heroic (I think it took him 4 months or so) rewrite of the entire movement update system within Aurora, which resulted in the current mechanics:

    MUCH more performant updates, so Aurora can do a lot more (hence smaller) timesteps within a single update.

    "Automatic" timestep mode where Aurora chooses this granularity.  At present, I think it's 15 minute timesteps for a 1 day update; shorter for 8-hour or 3-hour updates.

    The "automatic turns" button, which is a HUGE improvement.  In the past, I used to spend about 5-10 seconds deciding if Aurora had stopped for a good reason, and then pushing the "do another update" button.  This meant I was stuck at the computer waiting to push a button that 99% of the time the computer could just as easily push.  Now I simply hit the automatic turns, and if I see it getting bogged down due to NPRs I go do something else.

C) Automagic turns:  This is where "interrupt" vs. "informational" events come in, and it requires solving a hard problem: "what does the player consider an interrupt-worthy event?"  If the program is going to go ahead and push the button for me if nothing interesting has happened, then it needs to be able to define "interesting" (your initial question).  The biggest such problem is probably answering the question: "the state of my sensor contacts just changed - does the player want to know?".  Originally, the program was interrupting too frequently - any time a contact appeared or disappeared (even civilians from your own race) Aurora would interrupt, requiring you to notice and push the button.  The last release or so is MUCH better - Steve seems to have filtered out most of the "noisy" interrupts while leaving the important ones.  The one spot I'm worried about is when a hostile ship that you're observing changes its behavior (i.e. it was just sitting there and now it's coming towards your picket ship) - I suspect that that won't generate an interrupt - but that's a really hard thing to get right from an AI point of view.  The other problem, which Steve has done a lot of work to get rid of the last few months, is "yoyo" behavior, where an NPR gets stuck in an infinite behavior loop that generates interrupts on a really short timescale.

The reason that I went into all this historical detail was to give some context for the system:

1)  Cutting the update short is necessary in order for the NPR AI to work properly.
2)  The "automatic turns" buttons makes such interrupts relatively harmless - the program just tells you that it had to stop and then restarts the update again.
3)  A lot of play-testing has gone into reducing the interrupts as much as possible, without missing interesting events.  That being said, there's still room for improvement if you happen to hit a concrete case of "I don't want it stopping for that" or "Hey!  It should have stopped for that".

Hope it helps....

John
 

Offline Cernunnos

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Re: Time....
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 10:48:54 PM »
That did help, a lot. Thank you for taking the time to type all that up to answer my question! :)
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Time....
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 05:56:27 AM »
Quote from: "Cernunnos"
That did help, a lot. Thank you for taking the time to type all that up to answer my question! :)). We should probably start stickying or linking very useful posts like this one in the Academy forum. I'll create a useful links thread I think. Anyone know if it is possible to link to a specific post within a thread?

Steve
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Time....
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2010, 08:52:42 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Cernunnos"
That did help, a lot. Thank you for taking the time to type all that up to answer my question! :)). We should probably start stickying or linking very useful posts like this one in the Academy forum. I'll create a useful links thread I think. Anyone know if it is possible to link to a specific post within a thread?

Steve

Well, seeing as I was one of the ones that pushed so hard for you to do all that work, I figured I should probably help out with the explaining :-)

John
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Time....
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2010, 09:54:16 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Anyone know if it is possible to link to a specific post within a thread?

Steve

Yes, you can link to the headline/subject of a post.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline spec10

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Re: Time....
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2010, 04:47:19 PM »
I get the reasons for the increment adjustment, but it kind of makes the game unplayable for me right now. I spent the whole day planning and now when my economy finally kicks in I get hammered with 5-45 second increments because 2 NPRs are fighting each other somewhere. It's not a bug, i can see that in the txt dump of the event window, there's some serious missile fighting going on between those guys, but it really takes forever ... so far it's about 6 days gametime with a small break after the 3rd day and it's still going on and on and on, reaching ~1.5 hours of realtime now, and that's the end for me.

I really love this game, but unfortunately this is a dealbreaker for me :(. There should be some kind of abstraction for NPR only fights to improve this situation.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Time....
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2010, 05:43:48 PM »
Quote from: "spec10"
I get the reasons for the increment adjustment, but it kind of makes the game unplayable for me right now. I spent the whole day planning and now when my economy finally kicks in I get hammered with 5-45 second increments because 2 NPRs are fighting each other somewhere. It's not a bug, i can see that in the txt dump of the event window, there's some serious missile fighting going on between those guys, but it really takes forever ... so far it's about 6 days gametime with a small break after the 3rd day and it's still going on and on and on, reaching ~1.5 hours of realtime now, and that's the end for me.

I really love this game, but unfortunately this is a dealbreaker for me :(. There should be some kind of abstraction for NPR only fights to improve this situation.

Just to double-check - you've got the automated turns turned on, right?  That vastly lowers the pain of working through the NPR stuff.

I know where you're coming from  - I took a several month hiataus last year because an NPR task group decided to sail into my home system and Aurora was generating interrupts every time they gained or lost contact with my commercial shipping (or vice-versa).  Only after it appeared that problem had been solved (by automated turns and yoyo fixes) did I start another game.  OTOH, things that are painful do tend to get fixed, so you might want to check back every few months to see how things are progressing....

John