Author Topic: Pulse Wave Microwave for anti-salvo  (Read 3106 times)

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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Pulse Wave Microwave for anti-salvo
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2021, 05:31:53 PM »
Based on Steve's earlier comments, he considers Ion or MPD 'late game' techs in his games. So anything beyond that is probably not properly balanced.

Lately Steve's AAR games have started with ion tech and usually gotten into MPD before he moved on, so I'd be hesitant to call those "late game" although of course the man himself can always answer that.

Generally the tricky thing with missiles is that they are not symmetrical as tech level increases. What I mean is that they only have two techs that significantly improve their ability to dodge AMMs/PD, which are the speed (actually an engine tech, not a missile tech) and ECM. Meanwhile both AMMs and Gauss PD have three techs that can be used to significantly improve their interception ability: ECCM for both, and speed + agility for AMMs while beam PDs have both tracking speed and missile tracking bonus (Gauss also has ROF increases which compounds this). Thus early anti-missile tech is usually quite poor, while late-game missile defenses are easily impregnable except against the cheesiest of strategies.

It is similar to the famous linear vs quadratic power curves in e.g. Dungeons and Dragons when comparing Fighter and Wizard class power levels in concept.

The flip side is that as we reach the late game this may be intentional and it becomes more desirable for a fleet to have a more diverse weapons loadout as they can develop the technologies to do so, and missiles become just part of a fleet doctrine compared to a single-weapon early game doctrine. At this point the major issue is perhaps more attributable to the AI as others have stated which is not optimized for this kind of late-game diversification of doctrine and designs. Thus as a player it becomes kind of silly to bother optimizing one's late-game doctrines to such an extent aside from RP reasons (and RP of course is always aided by a credible non-player actor or three).
 
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Offline Droll (OP)

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Re: Pulse Wave Microwave for anti-salvo
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2021, 05:40:55 PM »
Based on Steve's earlier comments, he considers Ion or MPD 'late game' techs in his games. So anything beyond that is probably not properly balanced.

Lately Steve's AAR games have started with ion tech and usually gotten into MPD before he moved on, so I'd be hesitant to call those "late game" although of course the man himself can always answer that.

Generally the tricky thing with missiles is that they are not symmetrical as tech level increases. What I mean is that they only have two techs that significantly improve their ability to dodge AMMs/PD, which are the speed (actually an engine tech, not a missile tech) and ECM. Meanwhile both AMMs and Gauss PD have three techs that can be used to significantly improve their interception ability: ECCM for both, and speed + agility for AMMs while beam PDs have both tracking speed and missile tracking bonus (Gauss also has ROF increases which compounds this). Thus early anti-missile tech is usually quite poor, while late-game missile defenses are easily impregnable except against the cheesiest of strategies.

It is similar to the famous linear vs quadratic power curves in e.g. Dungeons and Dragons when comparing Fighter and Wizard class power levels in concept.

The flip side is that as we reach the late game this may be intentional and it becomes more desirable for a fleet to have a more diverse weapons loadout as they can develop the technologies to do so, and missiles become just part of a fleet doctrine compared to a single-weapon early game doctrine. At this point the major issue is perhaps more attributable to the AI as others have stated which is not optimized for this kind of late-game diversification of doctrine and designs. Thus as a player it becomes kind of silly to bother optimizing one's late-game doctrines to such an extent aside from RP reasons (and RP of course is always aided by a credible non-player actor or three).

I think this really is the issue, the AI lacks the dynamic design capabilities to create good designs that react to the player.
Even ignoring dynamism, the existing templates are very restrictive for the AI and they often lack the variety of weapons they need to effectively fight unless they roll missiles which can do offense and defense quite well.
The easiest solution might be to add more varied templates for the AI and allow them to switch between templates to show a shift in their doctrines if they seem to be losing tons of ships.
 
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Offline Squigles

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Re: Pulse Wave Microwave for anti-salvo
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2021, 10:32:37 PM »

B) I'd like to see laser warheads come back, by which I mean missiles that do less damage but bypass the final defensive fire phase of point defense.


100% agreed on the return of laser warheads. Just, not with reduced damage. Maybe something along the lines of detonating at 20k meters per level of laser range tech, generates a single 1 point laser per WH strength with the same hit % as the missile would have had if it was a contact missile.

Right now there’s just no reason not to stack 10cm rail or gauss when it becomes more efficient. I honestly never even bother using AMM’s for missile defense because there’s not really a reason to. Just stack more energy coverage. If I have missiles blowing up 80k meters off my bow and pelting me with the equivalent of a small caliber railgun swarm, I’m damn sure going to start fielding AMM’s and forward deploying small laser craft again.

Just feels like we should have missiles that are fairly easy to dish out some form of damage, but nothing immediately crippling, while we also have the choice of missiles that have to run the gauntlet, but if they hit are devastating.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Pulse Wave Microwave for anti-salvo
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2021, 10:36:31 PM »
Right now there’s just no reason not to stack 10cm rail or gauss when it becomes more efficient. I honestly never even bother using AMM’s for missile defense because there’s not really a reason to. Just stack more energy coverage. If I have missiles blowing up 80k meters off my bow and pelting me with the equivalent of a small caliber railgun swarm, I’m damn sure going to start fielding AMM’s and forward deploying small laser craft again.

AMMs are actually useful to thin out a very large wave of missiles since with decent tech levels you can launch several waves of AMMs. This is an important counter to massed box launchers which would otherwise be able to overwhelm beam final fire PD.

By "is" I mean "would be, if the AI actually built box launcher swarms". Thus as it stands AMMs are really only necessary in games with multiple player races.