Author Topic: Crusade - Comments Thread  (Read 45202 times)

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Offline Desdinova

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2019, 02:45:11 PM »


Here is my proposed engine tech advancement. Just a note, I moved ion tech to before nuclear thermal, because in real life ion engines were the first electric propulsion systems tested and I just feel like they should come before high-thrust nuclear and fusion torch drives.

 It maintains the 100% tech cost per step progression, with three possible curves: The first one smooths out the existing engine tech curve in the early game with a modest increase to early-game engine performance. The only change after 20000 RP is plasma core anti-matter is bumped up a bit to smooth out the progression. With this curve, you get a modest improvement in early-game engine tech, with 8 base EP engines at 2500 RP instead of 5000.

The second set of numbers is a linear 20% increase accross the board, but maintains the upper limit of 100 base EP at photonic drives. This means greatly increasing early-game engine performance, however.

The rightmost columns are a 20% linear 'slow' progression. This matches the stock curve at the 1000 RP mark, but the linear increase means that photonic drives only reach 63 base EP.
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2019, 03:27:48 PM »
Here is my proposed engine tech advancement. Just a note, I moved ion tech to before nuclear thermal, because in real life ion engines were the first electric propulsion systems tested and I just feel like they should come before high-thrust nuclear and fusion torch drives.

My issue with this is that the starting tech costs are so low, no-one in their right mind would ever actually utilise them outside extremely niche applications, instead just skipping over them. TN Chemical, Ion and Electromagnetic could realistically just be combined into "Ion" with 1k tech cost.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2019, 03:37:37 PM »
For what it's worth, I like the idea of just adding a few extra early techs to smooth the curve and looking at any potential larger balance changes at a later date. I like the idea of slower ships but it's true it would have wideranging effects.
 

Offline Desdinova

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #198 on: December 24, 2019, 03:55:10 PM »
Here is my proposed engine tech advancement. Just a note, I moved ion tech to before nuclear thermal, because in real life ion engines were the first electric propulsion systems tested and I just feel like they should come before high-thrust nuclear and fusion torch drives.

My issue with this is that the starting tech costs are so low, no-one in their right mind would ever actually utilise them outside extremely niche applications, instead just skipping over them. TN Chemical, Ion and Electromagnetic could realistically just be combined into "Ion" with 1k tech cost.

In a traditional start game, yeah, it wouldn't add a whole lot, but I think it would be good for conventional start, multi-player games, like the multifaction campaign I had going a while ago, because it would jump start the early colonization of the solar system. Right now, there's just a massive gulf between conventional and the 2500-cost nuclear tech, which can take a very, very long time for a small faction to research with 2-3 labs. Having some low-cost engine techs would make very low tech games much more interesting.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #199 on: December 24, 2019, 04:54:44 PM »
I would not mind if ships were slightly slower in general, not by much but say they peak at around 80-90 in power and there is roughly a 20% increase per level.

I sort of like there to be a choice between keeping older engines around for a while and not be completely outdated as soon as you develop a new level. It also would be possible to bridge the gap with less fuel efficient engine at least one tech level, sometimes even two if stretching it.

Sensors for example have been tones down between steps now in a way that you actually can compete with lower sensor tech more easily, this is really nice. If you double the power of an active sensor it only give you roughly 40% range boost.
 

Offline Marski

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #200 on: December 24, 2019, 07:26:03 PM »
Those technologies would be fine if acceleration was a thing in Aurora and not just instantly going from stationary to maximum possible speed.
I hope uncle Stevie goes for Newtonian C# Aurora after this one is done.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #201 on: December 25, 2019, 06:40:15 AM »
or there could be side grades, that sit between two levels, cost a quarter, but researching these doesn't bring the player close to the next level

so an improved magneto plasma would cost 10000rp, have 18 power but would't bring the player closer to researching fusion

I like the idea of side-step techs, if balanced out correctly.
Instead of deciding only if you are investing in tech X instead of Y, you would now have a whole new strategic choice to make. Do  you research a side-step tech that don't make any progress along the main line, but only cost (say) 1/2 of the current level while providing a reasonable improvement to the current tech.

Basically, more branching with dead-ends, but useful yet optional one.
 

Offline db48x

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #202 on: December 25, 2019, 06:42:45 AM »
After playing with the engine power numbers myself for a bit, I think that the proposed C# changes are pretty good. In fact, the original numbers are much cleverer than I had realized. The engine power goes up by a steady 26% every time, with a little rounding and the 6.4 and 10 levels skipped. (The fact that the plasma-core tech had engine power 60 instead of 64 was probably just an ancient typo, considering that the 8, 16, and 32 engine power techs existed and were spaced every fourth level just as you'd expect.) Even the research cost is not as arbitrary as it first looked; if the the nuclear thermal level started at 600 research instead of 2500, then doubling at every tech would reproduce the costs of 10 of the 12 levels with just a little rounding. The cost of the first two levels is too high, but if they include the costs of the skipped levels then they're pretty close. (I will note that 6.25 or 6.3 would be better choices than 6.4, because you picked 12.5 later on.)

Desdinova's suggestion to add a couple of extra levels at the low end sounds like it would be a positive change for the conventional start. Putting them at 3.15 and 4 engine power respectively would continue the trend. (Putting the first one at 3.2 requires you to later round 51.2 down to 50!) The question then is how you do the costs; you could just put them at a quarter and a half of the nuclear thermal, or you could shift some of the points down from the first four levels, keeping the cumulative research costs the same. The former probably makes the first level too cheap; there'd probably be no reason to build a ship with a conventional engine when the first engine tech only costs 150 points.

However, the changes Steve proposed already do that too. They bring the cost of the first engine tech down from 2.5k to 1k research, which means that it's 40% of the cost. If you build a conventional ship at the start of a conventional game then it can do useful work while you spend a couple of years researching the first engine tech. That might not actually be the case if that first tech is 40% cheaper. It's almost as if that first tech should have a much higher cost, even though that makes the second and third techs super cheap by comparison and then everyone will skip over them for sure. If the first four techs all cost 2k and got you 3, 4, 5 and 6.3 engine power, then I would expect a multi-faction conventional-start game to have a shorter period where only the largest power was in space, a decent period where everyone was in space with useful engines, but with the some factions having moved up a level, followed by the gap narrowing considerably as everyone was able to build more labs and the smaller factions start to catch up. It essentially slows down progress through the early levels without making the first level extremely cheap. (You could also make tech cheaper for factions colocated with other factions that already have the tech. Or at least do so if the other faction's civilian ships have the tech, since that implies that anyone can just buy an engine and reverse engineer it.)

Whatever happens I'll be happy to get my hands on the game.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #203 on: December 25, 2019, 08:04:29 AM »
Well, this discussion should be moved to the C#A forum. I don't think that there is a huge need to revamp the engine technologies, though I do agree that for us who always play Conventional starts, having something between Conventional and Nuclear Thermal would be nice.
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #204 on: December 25, 2019, 08:57:21 PM »
(You could also make tech cheaper for factions colocated with other factions that already have the tech. Or at least do so if the other faction's civilian ships have the tech, since that implies that anyone can just buy an engine and reverse engineer it.)


Already in the game.
 
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Offline db48x

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #205 on: December 26, 2019, 02:38:49 PM »
Already in the game.

I probably knew that at one point :)
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #206 on: December 31, 2019, 10:47:59 AM »
The campaign update today is in three parts, so don't just read the last one :)
 
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Offline jonw

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #207 on: January 01, 2020, 06:53:12 AM »
Steve, those updates are amazing, I'm really interested by the varied behaviour shown by the necrons and tyranids. Your ship designs are very large and I'm wonering what the economic situation is on earth - how many shipyards do you have, and of what size? What population do they take to run and where is your wealth generated?
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #208 on: January 01, 2020, 07:55:00 AM »
Steve, those updates are amazing, I'm really interested by the varied behaviour shown by the necrons and tyranids. Your ship designs are very large and I'm wonering what the economic situation is on earth - how many shipyards do you have, and of what size? What population do they take to run and where is your wealth generated?

The AI in C# Aurora is a LOT better than in VB6. It is one of the reasons development has taken a lot longer than I originally thought (another reason is the ground combat). The ship designs are larger (and less efficient) than normal because it is a Warhammer 40k themed campaign. Small ships wouldn't have been in line with the theme and I needed large hulls to fit all the weapons in the Battlefleet Gothic designs.

Below are the shipyard summaries for Terra and Centaurus Colony. There is also an 18,000 capacity, single slipway naval shipyard at Gryphonne. The Terran shipyards require 210 million workers. Centaurus requires 16 million.





This is income and expenditure for the last 12 months. My wealth situation has improved a lot, although that is because I had a long period without the resources to build anything. Based on this campaign, the civilian shipping tax needs increasing and the rate at which mines expand needs to be reduced. I'll adjust that before release.

 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #209 on: January 01, 2020, 08:34:36 AM »
What an amazing update! I'm really impressed by the AI.