Buoy Mechanics

[Kurt (OP)]

Okay, either I've uncovered a bug or I don't understand how things work.  The fact that I posted here, instead of the bug forum, will tell you which one I think it is <G>.

All of this is in 4.77, and I can't remember if there is a known bug in this area or not.

I designed a buoy intended to be a captor mine.  The buoy was 20 MSP, had four size 3 missiles, and the rest of the space was devoted to endurance and sensors.  The sensors had a range of 600,000 km's and a resolution of 60, and the captor mine had a release range of 500,000 km's.  The size 3 anti-ship missiles carried by the captor mine had a sensor with 540,000 km range and a resolution of 60, as well as warhead, engines, and fuel of course.  

The mines were emplaced 400,000 km's from a warp point through which three enemy ships appeared.  All three ships were larger than 5,000 tons, which meant they were more than large enough to be detected by the sensors.  The captor mines launched their AS missiles five seconds after the enemy ships arrived, as intended.  Unfortunately, at that point the missiles just sat there.  They never moved and apparently never recognized the enemy ships as targets.  

Have I done something wrong?

[sloanjh]

Okay, either I've uncovered a bug or I don't understand how things work.  The fact that I posted here, instead of the bug forum, will tell you which one I think it is <G>.

All of this is in 4.77, and I can't remember if there is a known bug in this area or not.

I designed a buoy intended to be a captor mine.  The buoy was 20 MSP, had four size 3 missiles, and the rest of the space was devoted to endurance and sensors.  The sensors had a range of 600,000 km's and a resolution of 60, and the captor mine had a release range of 500,000 km's.  The size 3 anti-ship missiles carried by the captor mine had a sensor with 540,000 km range and a resolution of 60, as well as warhead, engines, and fuel of course.  

The mines were emplaced 400,000 km's from a warp point through which three enemy ships appeared.  All three ships were larger than 5,000 tons, which meant they were more than large enough to be detected by the sensors.  The captor mines launched their AS missiles five seconds after the enemy ships arrived, as intended.  Unfortunately, at that point the missiles just sat there.  They never moved and apparently never recognized the enemy ships as targets.  

Have I done something wrong?

Yes you did something wrong, but it's not clear that that's what's behind the issue

If I read your message right, you said that the Buoy's sensor range was 600K, while missiles' sensor range was 540K.  This is a bad idea, since you can get into a situation where the buoy sees a target and releases the missiles, and then the missiles can't see the target.

"But (you say) I already thought of that!!  That's why I set the release range to 500K - that way the buoy will only release when the target is within range of the missiles' sensors."

The problem with this is ECM.  Let's say that the bad guys have ECM-3, i.e. ranges are multiplied by 70%.  This means that the buoy's sensor range is 420K, while the missiles' range is 378K.  Since you emplaced the buoys 400K from the WP, that's right in the "donut hole" where the buoy can see the bad guys but the missiles can't, and it's inside the release range of the buoy.

I'm not sure this is what's going on, but I'd say it's a design flaw in your captor design.  I would say one should always set thing up so that the buoy sensor range is a bit (5s worth of travel time for a high speed bad guy) less than the missile sensor range - that way if the bad guy is traveling away from you he won't move out of range during the 5s "launch lag".

The only way I can think of to know if this is what's going on or if it's a bug is to find out if the bad guys have ECM-3....

John

[Kurt (OP)]

Okay, either I've uncovered a bug or I don't understand how things work.  The fact that I posted here, instead of the bug forum, will tell you which one I think it is <G>.

All of this is in 4.77, and I can't remember if there is a known bug in this area or not.

I designed a buoy intended to be a captor mine.  The buoy was 20 MSP, had four size 3 missiles, and the rest of the space was devoted to endurance and sensors.  The sensors had a range of 600,000 km's and a resolution of 60, and the captor mine had a release range of 500,000 km's.  The size 3 anti-ship missiles carried by the captor mine had a sensor with 540,000 km range and a resolution of 60, as well as warhead, engines, and fuel of course.  

The mines were emplaced 400,000 km's from a warp point through which three enemy ships appeared.  All three ships were larger than 5,000 tons, which meant they were more than large enough to be detected by the sensors.  The captor mines launched their AS missiles five seconds after the enemy ships arrived, as intended.  Unfortunately, at that point the missiles just sat there.  They never moved and apparently never recognized the enemy ships as targets.  

Have I done something wrong?

Yes you did something wrong, but it's not clear that that's what's behind the issue

If I read your message right, you said that the Buoy's sensor range was 600K, while missiles' sensor range was 540K.  This is a bad idea, since you can get into a situation where the buoy sees a target and releases the missiles, and then the missiles can't see the target.

"But (you say) I already thought of that!!  That's why I set the release range to 500K - that way the buoy will only release when the target is within range of the missiles' sensors."

The problem with this is ECM.  Let's say that the bad guys have ECM-3, i.e. ranges are multiplied by 70%.  This means that the buoy's sensor range is 420K, while the missiles' range is 378K.  Since you emplaced the buoys 400K from the WP, that's right in the "donut hole" where the buoy can see the bad guys but the missiles can't, and it's inside the release range of the buoy.

I'm not sure this is what's going on, but I'd say it's a design flaw in your captor design.  I would say one should always set thing up so that the buoy sensor range is a bit (5s worth of travel time for a high speed bad guy) less than the missile sensor range - that way if the bad guy is traveling away from you he won't move out of range during the 5s "launch lag".

The only way I can think of to know if this is what's going on or if it's a bug is to find out if the bad guys have ECM-3....

John

Your ECM point is well taken, and I realized when reading your post that I had not considered ECM.  The enemy does indeed have ECM, so I thought that that was the answer.  I ran a second test with a newly designed Captor Mine Mk 2.  This mine had a sensor range of 430,000, the same as the Captor Missile Mk 2 that it carried.  I made a mistake in design, so that the release range was set to 150,000, but I also set up the test so that the enemy would appear at a much closer range than even that.  In fact, the enemy appeared at 42,000 km's.  The Captor Mine Mk 2 didn't release its missiles this time, so now I don't know what to think.  I know that the mine can see the ships, but for some reason it isn't firing.  I'm going to do a little bit more experimenting, but this is getting irritating.

Kurt

[Steve Walmsley]

I did fix a bug with mines at some point and I think it was later than v4.77 .

I'll test it when I get home though and see if I can replicate the problem in the current codeset.

Steve

[Kurt (OP)]

I did fix a bug with mines at some point and I think it was later than v4.77 .

I'll test it when I get home though and see if I can replicate the problem in the current codeset.

Steve

I do vaguely remember a bug relating to mines, and I concur that I think it was more recent than 4.77.  Oh well.  I was going to play around with captor mines, but there are always alternatives.

[Erik L]

This is under 5.14.

Relevant buoy designs:

Code: [Select]

Buoy Size: 20 MSP  (1 HS)     Armour: 0
Reactor Endurance: 60 months
Active Sensor Strength: 3.6    Resolution: 10    Maximum Range: 360,000 km    
Cost Per Buoy: 23.7
Second Stage: Hawk Light Missile x2
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Materials Required:    2.5x Tritanium   12x Boronide   7.2x Uridium   1.25x Gallicite

Development Cost for Project: 2370RP

Code: [Select]

Buoy Size: 20 MSP  (1 HS)     Armour: 0
Reactor Endurance: 60 months
Thermal Sensor Strength: 2    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2,000,000 km
EM Sensor Strength: 2    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2,000,000 km
Cost Per Buoy: 16
Materials Required:    12x Boronide   4x Uridium

Development Cost for Project: 1600RP
Situation is, I've got 8 of the scanner buoys emplaced at a jump point and 112 captor mines. These were emplaced due to finding an NPR on the other side of the JP. I eventually established contact and had a DR ~180, when the race went hostile on me. I destroyed their first incursion (4 of them vs. 6 of mine), with 1 DD loss. I've had what seem to be Constructors from this race enter my system. None of the mines have been triggered, and they are still within their lifespan.

Any ideas?

[Erik L]

I'd picketed another JP with mines, and a hostile transited that one. Beautiful sight in the log.

Code: [Select]

27th October 2107 20:28:46,Human,Sol,60x Hawk Light Missile released by Salvo #41
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,3x Hawk Light Missile destroyed by point blank point defence fire
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,Salvo of 57x Hawk Light Missile has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 112%: (Missile Speed 15000 km/s / Target Speed 1341 km/s) x Missile Agility 10 x GradeBonus 0%
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Unknown,Mughal 013 has been destroyed
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x57 detected!


[Beersatron]

I'd picketed another JP with mines, and a hostile transited that one. Beautiful sight in the log.

Code: [Select]

27th October 2107 20:28:46,Human,Sol,60x Hawk Light Missile released by Salvo #41
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,3x Hawk Light Missile destroyed by point blank point defence fire
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,Salvo of 57x Hawk Light Missile has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 112%: (Missile Speed 15000 km/s / Target Speed 1341 km/s) x Missile Agility 10 x GradeBonus 0%
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Unknown,Mughal 013 has been destroyed
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x57 detected!


Overkill!

Wonder if Steve has thought of adding in a way to set a 'Maximum Release' number for the likes of this, i.e. if there 100 Mines in a 1km 'square' then only release 25 per 30 second increment or something. Be a biatch to code though.

[Erik L]

I'd picketed another JP with mines, and a hostile transited that one. Beautiful sight in the log.

Code: [Select]

27th October 2107 20:28:46,Human,Sol,60x Hawk Light Missile released by Salvo #41
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,3x Hawk Light Missile destroyed by point blank point defence fire
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,Salvo of 57x Hawk Light Missile has intercepted its target. Chance To Hit 112%: (Missile Speed 15000 km/s / Target Speed 1341 km/s) x Missile Agility 10 x GradeBonus 0%
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Unknown,Mughal 013 has been destroyed
27th October 2107 20:28:51,Human,Sol,Strength 5 Nuclear Detonation x57 detected!


Overkill!

Wonder if Steve has thought of adding in a way to set a 'Maximum Release' number for the likes of this, i.e. if there 100 Mines in a 1km 'square' then only release 25 per 30 second increment or something. Be a biatch to code though.

Way overkill, my estimate it only takes 15 or so to kill that particular class. Had another pop out a couple months later. The minefield had been increased. That ship ate 170 of the Hawk LMs. THAT was a waste.

It'd be nice to see a sensor profile. You designate a hostile class ('Mughal') and how many missiles to fire, per contact. So you could set your mine field up to fire 15 missiles at one class and only 5 at another.