Crusade - Comments Thread

[Jorgen_CAB]

Tech plays a massive role especially at lower levels, maybe a bit too much. I would love to see to be able to counter tech with a numerical advantage a bit more.

I often wished that there was more technology levels and the technology increase felt less than giant leaps. I would like roughly twice as many tech levels to get that feel I suppose. Right now each technology roughly increase effectiveness with 20-25%. Perhaps each increase should rather be 10-15% at a roughly +50% tech cost between each level or something.

My ships would never be out of refit

The larger increases are deliberate so that technology changes have an impact. I think this stems from my 3rd edition Starfire experience, where new tech made a real difference. The 4th edition had far more incremental steps, which is one of the reasons I didn't play it.

I can understand that viewpoint... although I think that often stem from the fact that you feel that you MUST always refit. 

When you have smaller steps it actually become a decision whether you do refit or not or wait for the next level... or basically that you have a mix of older and newer ships and qualities available at any given time.

One should not feel obligated to refit to stay at least decently competitive. In most real navies you most often have a wide range of more or less modern ships and equipment all living together more or less all the time.

I think it is mostly the drives. The first few generations give you like 60%, 50% or 33% more speed, making it an utter no-brainer to drop everything and refit immediately the whole fleet. A geometric progression of 20% or so would tone that down a lot.

Probably why every one of my game tend to be a race for Magneto Plasma engine technology... It is sort of the place where the next level are quite expensive research wise and give a relatively small (25%) benefit in comparison to the previous levels. I would probably agree that keeping every progression step at roughly 20% would make things more of a choice whether you upgrade now or later etc...

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Probably why every one of my game tend to be a race for Magneto Plasma engine technology... It is sort of the place where the next level are quite expensive research wise and give a relatively small (25%) benefit in comparison to the previous levels. I would probably agree that keeping every progression step at roughly 20% would make things more of a choice whether you upgrade now or later etc...

20% would mean either a lot more levels (18 instead of 12) or a much lower maximum speed than now. The latter would have all sorts of other implications such as how quickly you can build an Empire, so I don't think that is workable.

The alternative is to put in a couple of extra levels near the start without changing anything else very much, and settle for about a 25% increase per level. I am not sure if this would change the game that much in reality though as I think the race to MPD would probably still happen, as that is achievable amount of RP for most starting Empires within a few years.

[TMaekler]

Don’t know if that would be easy to reprogram with he current system, but I would like to see a research system where you can choose how far you want to progress with your next step. Let’s say you have Power Factor 3 and want to go to 4; then research should be fairly quickly. Like 2000. But let’s say you encounter an enemy with factor 6 and need to go there as quickly as you can. That jump from 3 to 6 should be possible but would come at a cost: quick and bigger jumps produce engines which are more unstable and could explode easier (or have higher fuel consumption; whatever negative trait). Additionally you would get extra research options for that drive type to counter these negative effects. These would be costly but would get you „back on par“.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Probably why every one of my game tend to be a race for Magneto Plasma engine technology... It is sort of the place where the next level are quite expensive research wise and give a relatively small (25%) benefit in comparison to the previous levels. I would probably agree that keeping every progression step at roughly 20% would make things more of a choice whether you upgrade now or later etc...

20% would mean either a lot more levels (18 instead of 12) or a much lower maximum speed than now. The latter would have all sorts of other implications such as how quickly you can build an Empire, so I don't think that is workable.

The alternative is to put in a couple of extra levels near the start without changing anything else very much, and settle for about a 25% increase per level. I am not sure if this would change the game that much in reality though as I think the race to MPD would probably still happen, as that is achievable amount of RP for most starting Empires within a few years.

To be honest I like the second better, the reason is that I will probably start campaigns with research cost at five times the cost or even more and if I do I might feel forced to start at roughly Ion or Magneto Plasma level to start with as the first levels is a huge boost and factions at different levels at that early stage will be at a huge advantage over the others.

If I want to run a pre-trans Newtonian multi-faction game at five to ten times the technology cost I would say that the first few level will matter allot...

[alex_brunius]

To be honest I like the second better, the reason is that I will probably start campaigns with research cost at five times the cost or even more and if I do I might feel forced to start at roughly Ion or Magneto Plasma level to start with as the first levels is a huge boost and factions at different levels at that early stage will be at a huge advantage over the others.

If I want to run a pre-trans Newtonian multi-faction game at five to ten times the technology cost I would say that the first few level will matter allot...

Agreed. I often find myself in such games with very few labs and would apprechiate the extra detail. For those that do start with more labs / larger power it actually also adds tradeoffs like do you try and upgade right away or skip designing ships with an engine level.

[Father Tim]

I would love the expanded chart with consistent 25-28% steps.

[Bremen]

Personally, I kind of like the idea of a consistent 20% step, even if it means strategic ship movement doesn't keep up with empire expansion. Maybe it's the WH40k AAR but I like the idea of having to have fleet bases and forge worlds scattered around. Also the new ability to create LPs might help there by letting you build "space highways." But mostly I think the current engine tech tiers are just such massive improvements that reducing the bonus a little might be warranted.

[Desdinova]

I like the idea of either adding more technologies to smooth the rate of improvement, or to raise the basic tech speed (vs make everyone slower). In real world terms, HMS Dreadnought was revolutionary because she could sustain 21 knots when most predreadnought battleships could only manage 18-19 - a 10-15% improvement. Thirty years later, a fast battleship was one that could make 26.

[Whitecold]

Personally, I kind of like the idea of a consistent 20% step, even if it means strategic ship movement doesn't keep up with empire expansion. Maybe it's the WH40k AAR but I like the idea of having to have fleet bases and forge worlds scattered around. Also the new ability to create LPs might help there by letting you build "space highways." But mostly I think the current engine tech tiers are just such massive improvements that reducing the bonus a little might be warranted.

I think you should not be able to keep up with expansion, needing multiple fleets to cover different areas. The 20% step seems also more manageable to compensate for. +25% thrust is about double fuel consumption if I recall correctly, or 25% instead of 20% tonnage allocated to engines. Both seem reasonable things to do if you need to bridge a tech gap.

[Graham]

Just registering my vote as it were for the smoother steps. In all of my multi-faction start games I am forced to severely limit how factions can research engine techs, because rushing up to at least Ion is a no-brainer when it gives such a huge boost to both combat power and strategic mobility. The extra 6k RP between nuclear pulse and Ion will make other alternatives a bit more viable. Meanwhile the first person to get it will no longer temporarily become quite so supercharged.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Here is a more smoothed out example..



You could start at 6 power and increase it to 7.5 for a 25% at the start and then add another level someplace if you feel the speeds get a bit high at the start.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Here is a more smoothed out example..



You could start at 6 power and increase it to 7.5 for a 25% at the start and then add another level someplace if you feel the speeds get a bit high at the start.

You are replacing Magneto-plasma at 16 power for 20,000 RP with Ion at 16.5 power for 8,000 RP. Which means you are speeding up the rate of expansion considerably and making the galaxy effectively smaller at the same point in time. That has a lot of other knock-on effects. You need 18 steps to keep the same speed progression as before but with smaller steps. If you start with 5 power, it is seventeen 20% steps to 100 power. Or we have the current number of steps but a much lower max speed.

I am inclined to add the two extra lower levels to create the 25% progression for now and then maybe look at a more stepped progression after play-testing the smaller change.

[LoSboccacc]

or there could be side grades, that sit between two levels, cost a quarter, but researching these doesn't bring the player close to the next level

so an improved magneto plasma would cost 10000rp, have 18 power but would't bring the player closer to researching fusion

[SevenOfCarina]

This is a strictly v1.x suggestion, but I was inspired by the discussion here - some way to design components based off an existing standard for reduced research cost would be appreciated. If it were possible to replace components on ships with slightly more capable ones as technology progresses for a more limited cost, it should go a long way towards smoothing out technological advancement. Obviously there should be some limits.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Here is a more smoothed out example..



You could start at 6 power and increase it to 7.5 for a 25% at the start and then add another level someplace if you feel the speeds get a bit high at the start.

You are replacing Magneto-plasma at 16 power for 20,000 RP with Ion at 16.5 power for 8,000 RP. Which means you are speeding up the rate of expansion considerably and making the galaxy effectively smaller at the same point in time. That has a lot of other knock-on effects. You need 18 steps to keep the same speed progression as before but with smaller steps. If you start with 5 power, it is seventeen 20% steps to 100 power. Or we have the current number of steps but a much lower max speed.

I am inclined to add the two extra lower levels to create the 25% progression for now and then maybe look at a more stepped progression after play-testing the smaller change.

Yes... it was just an example on roughly how it could look like and I was well aware that the table started at a higher power level, so adding a few more levels at the lower end would probably be needed, you could start at 4.5 or 5.5 power level or something.

So yes I was aware it would make ships faster earlier which would not be wanted...