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Offline L0ckAndL0ad (OP)

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Newbie questions detected!
« on: August 03, 2019, 10:30:12 AM »
Hi everyone!

It's my second campaign now, Year 28.   First one ended fairly quickly with me getting nuked by an NPR that I semi-accidentally spawned in a nearby system and tried visiting their homeworld with my exploration ship.   I do feel like I have a fairly decent understanding of the game mechanics, still, there are some things that I haven't figured out yet.   I'm also yet to fight an actual war (the one where I'm not just a "nuke from orbit, cuz that's the only way to be sure" target), so I'm pretty sure my perspective will change later. 

Anyway, here are the questions. 

1.   Active Sensor in passive mode.   Does it work as a passive EM sensor? I get the impression that "EM sensor" is one of the components of the Active Sensor, but was unable to test it out yet.   I do know that if you just put an Active Sensor on a ship, my sensor ratings (1/1/0/0) do not improve the same way as if I had an actual EM sensor installed.   But I do have some ships out there with Active Sensor only and they do show some decent coverage of passive detection range in System Map screen. 

In my current game, in all the systems that my NPR neighbor is active I have DST stations, so I can't really test it yet, but obviously, it would be great weight saving measure not to install EM sensor on a ship with an Active Sensor. 

2.   My NPR neighbor, which I decided not to attack, acts pretty bold by running around with 8-20Kt ships with actives on, camping Jump Gates in my Sol system and frequently buzzing Earth Space Flight Control Tower (but no admiral's daughters).   But I struggle with finding any traces of his bases of operation, or their homeworld.   I do know the AI doesn't need fuel or MSPs, and I did check every system they were seen in.  .   But no luck so far.   There are still some unexplored JPs in other nearby systems, but there was no  NPR activity in them whatsoever.   Any tips? I know I just need to spend more time and explorer ships on this task.  .  .   But I'd really appreciate any pointers here. 

3.   Is it okay to stop expanding facilities on Earth at some point? Would I still be competitive with the NPRs if I did? I keep spending resources on construction factories and such, but I do feel that I'm going to have to stop at some point.   I'm kind of lazy with microing colonies and really happy to allow civilians do as many tasks as possible, including mining and hauling cargo, so I'm seeing every other planet as a mineral source and a place for my population to grow to, but as far as industry goes, I feel like defending and maintaining a single centralized industrial complex on Earth would be easier for me.   So, how far should I push it?

4.   I do know that there are some kind of ruins and other interesting things one can find in space, but I was wondering, what area of the UI should I look into to actually see if I found something.   I've seen someone let's play video and a person only realized he found an anomaly only after creating a colony.   Where exactly do you get the info about such findings?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 10:32:28 AM by L0ckAndL0ad »
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2019, 12:48:55 PM »
Hi everyone!

It's my second campaign now, Year 28.   First one ended fairly quickly with me getting nuked by an NPR that I semi-accidentally spawned in a nearby system and tried visiting their homeworld with my exploration ship.   I do feel like I have a fairly decent understanding of the game mechanics, still, there are some things that I haven't figured out yet.   I'm also yet to fight an actual war (the one where I'm not just a "nuke from orbit, cuz that's the only way to be sure" target), so I'm pretty sure my perspective will change later. 

Anyway, here are the questions. 

1.   Active Sensor in passive mode.   Does it work as a passive EM sensor? I get the impression that "EM sensor" is one of the components of the Active Sensor, but was unable to test it out yet.   I do know that if you just put an Active Sensor on a ship, my sensor ratings (1/1/0/0) do not improve the same way as if I had an actual EM sensor installed.   But I do have some ships out there with Active Sensor only and they do show some decent coverage of passive detection range in System Map screen. 

In my current game, in all the systems that my NPR neighbor is active I have DST stations, so I can't really test it yet, but obviously, it would be great weight saving measure not to install EM sensor on a ship with an Active Sensor. 

2.   My NPR neighbor, which I decided not to attack, acts pretty bold by running around with 8-20Kt ships with actives on, camping Jump Gates in my Sol system and frequently buzzing Earth Space Flight Control Tower (but no admiral's daughters).   But I struggle with finding any traces of his bases of operation, or their homeworld.   I do know the AI doesn't need fuel or MSPs, and I did check every system they were seen in.  .   But no luck so far.   There are still some unexplored JPs in other nearby systems, but there was no  NPR activity in them whatsoever.   Any tips? I know I just need to spend more time and explorer ships on this task.  .  .   But I'd really appreciate any pointers here. 

3.   Is it okay to stop expanding facilities on Earth at some point? Would I still be competitive with the NPRs if I did? I keep spending resources on construction factories and such, but I do feel that I'm going to have to stop at some point.   I'm kind of lazy with microing colonies and really happy to allow civilians do as many tasks as possible, including mining and hauling cargo, so I'm seeing every other planet as a mineral source and a place for my population to grow to, but as far as industry goes, I feel like defending and maintaining a single centralized industrial complex on Earth would be easier for me.   So, how far should I push it?

4.   I do know that there are some kind of ruins and other interesting things one can find in space, but I was wondering, what area of the UI should I look into to actually see if I found something.   I've seen someone let's play video and a person only realized he found an anomaly only after creating a colony.   Where exactly do you get the info about such findings?

Thanks!
1. Active sensors do not have a passive mode.  Are you sure it is showing passive range instead of active range?  EM sensors only detect enabled active sensors, enabled shields, and some planetary facilities.
2. Some spoilers don't have populated colonies.  You will need TH sensors to find their outposts.
3. Population will eventually become your production bottleneck.  Unless you've increased the difficulty the AI eventually won't be able to keep up with you.
4. The System Map window's Display 2 tab has a pane that shows known ruins and wrecks.  Geosurvey ships put an alert in your event log when they find anomalies.
 
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Offline JacenHan

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2019, 01:01:07 PM »
1. Active sensors do not act as EM sensors. I'm not sure what is going on with the system map rings, but it might be showing the range at which that ship would be detected by a particular strength of EM sensor.

2. NPRs behave like that pretty regularly, so that's not unusual. One thing you might do is try to find any jump gates you didn't construct and follow them backwards, since NPRs tend to be kind of crazy about throwing them up everywhere. Other than that, you'll just have to keep exploring. If you ever get trade access with the NPR you might see a freighter and be able to follow it, but it seems like they might be too far away for that.

3. There are very few reasons to stop expanding your infrastructure, from a min-max perspective. Unless you are limited by population or minerals, you will always want more production capacity. On the other hand, NPRs tend to play pretty sub-optimally, so there probably isn't too much of a reason to keep going once you feel secure in your powerbase.

4. For ruins, the "Display 2" tab on the system map has a list of all known ruins. For anomalies, you will probably have to use the System View (F9) and check each system individually.
 
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Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2019, 04:03:34 PM »
I like to make war pay for war, which means that I go on the offensive once I can exploit a victory.  That means troop transports, salvage ships, and boarding pods.

Also, while a given BP in missile ships will generally defeat a similar amount of beam ships, if you are planning on fighting a long series of battles, a missile fleet has a serious tempo problem.  So go for missile ships to get yourself that quick security, that fast early win, but after that I suggest not expanding your ordnance factories much, and focus on the best beam and PD fleet you can get.

At a certain point, you are going to get more economic expansion from Military Academies and Ground Force Training centers than from anything else, from construction brigades exploiting ruins to ground forces capturing enemy warships and commercial shipping and colonies.

I strongly suggest that you always make a colony, even a zero pop colony, on any anomaly world, and rename that anomaly body after the system and the type of anomaly it is, to make it easier to find later.

When exploring, always have some kind of sensor watch on the jump points you have gone through, whether that is sensor buoys (missiles with no engines but have sensors), or picket ships, or commercial maintenance sensor satellites.  A 10-15 ton ship has enough sensors to detect a ship right on top of it, which is good enough for jump point surveillance, or you can have a more capable sensor with a 1 HS or smaller active sensor, an engineering system, and no military systems.  I have always have survey support carriers that can drop jump point monitor stations as my survey fleet advances.  I place on both sides of the jump point, just to be sure, and also to RP a comm system that allows me to send and receive messages all over my empire.
 
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Offline L0ckAndL0ad (OP)

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2019, 02:40:59 PM »
Oh, thank you all for answers!

Yeah, I guess I've mistaken DST station's sensors with ship's.  Additional testing shows only tiny (base rating of 1, I guess) passive sensor range on my Active Sensor only SWACS FAC.  I really hoped I would be able to get away with just using one big sensor. . . .  Wishful thinking.  Oh well. .

It's year 34 now and I've gotten Allied status with my NPR neighbor (they call themselves "Union of Gun", and literally have guns on their hands, kinda scary looking robots), who now sends me his transponder codes.  Was able to track his ships this way a couple of systems further, but still no luck.  I really need some faster exploration vessels :)

Yeah, I'm thinking about missiles and guns a lot, but I'm also a Carrier Warfare fanboy, and really like standoff strikes, so missiles are on my priority list for tech advances.  I did make a fast Gauss fighter already though, to accompany my missile armed strike fighters, so I'm gonna do more evaluation of different weapons & tactics further down the road.

I do hope for a peaceful time, though.  I thought to myself that if this game was for real, I should've attacked my GUN neighbors long time ago, right when they approached Earth with a 6+ ship fleet and actives on.  But I read about the AI by that point and had a backup save, and decided that I'm more pro-peace (while still carrying a big stick) than pro-shoot-everything-ask-questions-later.

And seeing how easily my Earth got nuked on my first playthrough, I should be reaaaly careful now.

Got a couple of new questions btw:

5.  If I get into the war, is there a way to make the enemy capitulate without me destroying everything he has? Is there a war score or something like that, just like Diplomatic Score? Or is Diplo Score used for war too? How it works?

6.  Say, I have a fleet with multiple Jump Drive equipped ships.  Does their max jump squad size equal a total of all drives, or do I need to separate it into multiple smaller TGs?

Thank you all again!
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 12:44:06 AM »
5.  If I get into the war, is there a way to make the enemy capitulate without me destroying everything he has? Is there a war score or something like that, just like Diplomatic Score? Or is Diplo Score used for war too? How it works?

6.  Say, I have a fleet with multiple Jump Drive equipped ships.  Does their max jump squad size equal a total of all drives, or do I need to separate it into multiple smaller TGs?

5.  You can destroy almost everything they have.

Basically, if you kill everything that can fight, then the things that can't fight will surrender to you.  But it is far more common to only think you have killed everything that can fight, and then see enemies fleeing instead of surrendering.  At this point, you can safely assume that there are units and/or colonies left to defeat.



6.  Nope; separate.

You will need to assign ships to jump squadrons while paying attention to max ship size and squadron transit numbers.  Aurora has basically zero automation to help you with this, so you should plan from the start of your navy which ships can be moved by which JumpShips.
 
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Offline L0ckAndL0ad (OP)

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 01:09:48 PM »
I see.  Thanks!

I'm about to start building my 3rd Generation DDGs.  Is this a normal ship for Year 40? Besides the fact that it's multirole and thus not compatible with autofire :) It is intended to work in groups of 2 (light escort for things like UNREP transports/tankers), 4-6 (semi-independent TGs with bigger CG cruisers, going into long range missile action) or 8-12 (escorting fleet carriers and staying away from trouble unless pressed).

Code: [Select]
Cole class Destroyer, Guided Missile    10 000 tons     266 Crew     1978.82 BP      TCS 200  TH 1000  EM 300
5000 km/s     Armour 4-41     Shields 10-300     Sensors 22/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 22     PPV 34.27
Maint Life 4.73 Years     MSP 1484    AFR 66%    IFR 0.9%    1YR 109    5YR 1629    Max Repair 500 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 60 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 358   

1000 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (1)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 43.67%    Signature 1000    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres    Range 20.6 billion km   (47 days at full power)
Delta R300/300 Shields (4)   Total Fuel Cost  50 Litres per hour  (1 200 per day)

Twin Gauss Cannon R3-67 Turret (1x6)    Range 30 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gunnery FCS 32K/16K (1)    Max Range: 64 000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0

AMM-1-10s Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
ASM-6-720s Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 720
AMM FCS 1.2/3.9/11M (2)     Range 11.1m km    Resolution 1
ASM FCS 8Kt/175M (1)     Range 175.3m km    Resolution 160
AMM-12-3M Magic (160)  Speed: 25 600 km/s   End: 2m    Range: 3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 290/174/87
ASM-62-150M Sunburn (32)  Speed: 23 500 km/s   End: 106.4m    Range: 150m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 164/98/49

AMM Radar 1/3.3/9.2M (1)     GPS 84     Range 9.2m km    MCR 1.0m km    Resolution 1
RAD 8Kt/204M (1)     GPS 23520     Range 204.5m km    Resolution 160
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

Also, I'm preparing to start making 100Kton carriers (aiming at 45000 Hangar capacity), but struggle to decide between future fighters.  I'm gonna go with 4x Size 4 (WH4) armed strike fighter, but not sure about the firing range.  I love to put small radars on every fighter for adhoc scouting capability, independence and redundancy and currently aim for 50M (@7500-8000t signature) km missile range for that fighter.

But when it comes to beam fighters (that I'd like to use for PD, anti-fighter and finisher roles) I'm divided between going 2x17% gauss cannons (the way my Gen 1 fighters were built) or try 1 Railgun (haven't even researched it yet).  Or. . .  what about Mesons and Lasers?
 

Offline DeMatt

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 01:37:45 AM »
I'm about to start building my 3rd Generation DDGs.  Is this a normal ship for Year 40? Besides the fact that it's multirole and thus not compatible with autofire :) It is intended to work in groups of 2 (light escort for things like UNREP transports/tankers), 4-6 (semi-independent TGs with bigger CG cruisers, going into long range missile action) or 8-12 (escorting fleet carriers and staying away from trouble unless pressed).
I'm not a fan of giganto-engines on ships expecting to be shot at.  Giganto-engines make giganto-explosions when they take damage, cost giganto-amounts-of-RP to research, and cost giganto-amounts-of-MSP to repair.  Consider splitting it up into multiple smaller engines?

The active scanners are also problematic.  The long-range scanner is fine, but the AMM scanner is too short-ranged to provide anti-fighter coverage, and it's also quite short-ranged against missiles (that's the MCR range - any missile size 6 and below gets detected at MCR range).  I'd try and triple the size of the AMM scanner.

Also, I'm preparing to start making 100Kton carriers (aiming at 45000 Hangar capacity), but struggle to decide between future fighters.  I'm gonna go with 4x Size 4 (WH4) armed strike fighter, but not sure about the firing range.
I wonder if it might be better to go for a 3x Size 6 strike fighter, instead, and reuse your Sunburn missiles.  It'd increase the payload from 16 total warhead to 27, and allow your carriers to serve double-duty as colliers for their escorts.

I love to put small radars on every fighter for adhoc scouting capability, independence and redundancy
Try to keep this tendency under control.  A lone dedicated sensor fighter will have way more sensor capability than any number of ad-hoc craft.

But when it comes to beam fighters (that I'd like to use for PD, anti-fighter and finisher roles) I'm divided between going 2x17% gauss cannons (the way my Gen 1 fighters were built) or try 1 Railgun (haven't even researched it yet).  Or. . .  what about Mesons and Lasers?
Railguns are good for PD work, but you have to assume hostile fighters are at least as fast as your own, so they fall prey to being outranged by lasers.  Gauss guns (on fighters) get outdone by railguns until their RoF multiplier catches up, but if a gauss gun is all that will fit, then that's what I use.  Mesons are very much an "all mesons, or none" choice;  mesons don't help other weapons chew through defenses, and any holes from e.g. missiles don't help mesons do any more damage.

I prefer lasers for fighter weapons - the range lets them kite shorter-ranged opponents, and the damage boost at short range lets them deal devastating finishing blows.  This does, however, reduce their ability to mass PD - they do better as a forward screen, where they can fire on missiles both coming and going.
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 05:44:17 AM »
I disagree with almost everything DeMatt has to say.

A:  I research and build the biggest engine I can, and use it (when necessary, in multiples) for almost everything.

B:  While I hate the 'standard Aurora tactic' of dedicated sensor ships, the inability to turn on some, but not all, of a ship's active sensors means I restrict large, long-range actives to one or two unit designs.

C:  Small craft are the easiest parts of a carrier to modify (or replace), so I recommend experimenting.  Build many different designs, and even variations of designs, and play with them to see what works.

D:  Sensor fighters are awesome!  My empire small craft always start out as sensor platforms, and only get aremd later when we 'realize' that might be a good idea.  Being able to send out 6-12 fighters to sweep the area in front of a task force is great.

E:  As with most things, when my empire starts to arm fighters it starts with the smallest possible weapon, so as not to compromise the platform's recon mission.  The weapons slowly grow larger until the empire decides to split into dedicated fighters and scouts.

F:  I swap around my fighter weapon of choice from game to game, so as not to grow bored with the same old thing.  Any choice can be effective -- but being effective means adapting fighter tactics to the strengths of the chosen weapon.  For this, I recommend lots of experimentation.
 
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Offline L0ckAndL0ad (OP)

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 11:58:40 AM »
Quote from: DeMatt
I'm not a fan of giganto-engines on ships expecting to be shot at.     Giganto-engines make giganto-explosions when they take damage, cost giganto-amounts-of-RP to research, and cost giganto-amounts-of-MSP to repair.     Consider splitting it up into multiple smaller engines?
Yeah, I read a few threads on this topic and I get the idea.    But then I looked up wiki and it says:
Code: [Select]
The chance of destroying a component is calculated by:

  Incoming Damage / Component HTK
Meaning 2 smaller engines are twice as likely to get destroyed (12 vs 25), while they take the same amount of space on the ship (= same chance to get hit).    Am I getting this right? Also, bigger engines, while cost twice as much to repair, are 25% more fuel efficient, which also saves weight and resources.   

As for combat situations, I predict that a ship that gets hit in combat will have to be detached and taken off the frontline anyway, because it'll slow down the whole TG.    When it comes to 10Kt ship, there will be enough MSP to repair it with damage control to start to get moving again.    Bigger ships will have at least 2 of such size 50 engines anyway.   

That's my current rationale.    Of course, I'll need to experience more combat to evaluate this.    But bigger HTK is the main advantage, IMO.    Or am I missing something?
Quote from: DeMatt
The active scanners are also problematic.     The long-range scanner is fine, but the AMM scanner is too short-ranged to provide anti-fighter coverage, and it's also quite short-ranged against missiles (that's the MCR range - any missile size 6 and below gets detected at MCR range).     I'd try and triple the size of the AMM scanner.   
Uhm.   .    Yeah, I downsized the sensors from previous 1.   2M km to 1M km (vs MS6) to save weight.    I was trying to fit everything into 10Kt.    Was really hard to do, considering previous generation was 12.   5Kt.   

But is 1M km really not enough? My current missiles are 25000 km/s, and that's 250K km per 10 sec.

I should point out that I plan on introducing anti-fighter capabilities into my fleet with introduction of 20-30Kt cruiser.  I'm thinning about dedicated anti-fighter radars and FCs and probably longer ranged size 2 missile.  How far out should I be ready to engage fighters?
Quote from: DeMatt
I wonder if it might be better to go for a 3x Size 6 strike fighter, instead, and reuse your Sunburn missiles.     It'd increase the payload from 16 total warhead to 27, and allow your carriers to serve double-duty as colliers for their escorts.   
I measured it'd be either 4x MS4 or 2x MS6, not 3x MS6.    Also, I do active radars on my strike fighters.    Previous generation had 50M km range.    150? Would be really hard to do right now.    Also, bigger volley = easier to overcome PD.   

But yeah, I do LOVE to share common equipment and ammo as much as possible, so you are totally right to point it out.    I'll keep trying to fit it in.   
Quote from: DeMatt
Try to keep this tendency under control.     A lone dedicated sensor fighter will have way more sensor capability than any number of ad-hoc craft.   
I do have a dedicated SWACS FAC (actually, the only type of FACs I intend to use).    Previous generation was equipped with ~300-350M km active sensor.    But what if they all get destroyed? I do get the idea of such hyper weight efficiency, I really do.    But I'm not comfortable enough to gamble with this nor do I have too much space for sensor only ships.    2Ktons of hangar space is already too much, I'm thinking about trying to fit it on a 500 ton fighter.    Maybe with later tech I'll squeeze it in.   .    I hope to.   

Quote from: DeMatt
Railguns are good for PD work, but you have to assume hostile fighters are at least as fast as your own, so they fall prey to being outranged by lasers.     Gauss guns (on fighters) get outdone by railguns until their RoF multiplier catches up, but if a gauss gun is all that will fit, then that's what I use.     Mesons are very much an "all mesons, or none" choice;  mesons don't help other weapons chew through defenses, and any holes from e.   g.    missiles don't help mesons do any more damage.   

I prefer lasers for fighter weapons - the range lets them kite shorter-ranged opponents, and the damage boost at short range lets them deal devastating finishing blows.     This does, however, reduce their ability to mass PD - they do better as a forward screen, where they can fire on missiles both coming and going.   
Yeah, lasers do appeal to me more than anything at the moment because of range, but I fear I'm not tech-ed enough for them yet.   

Also, I'm experiencing problems with fitting my new 100Kt carrier.    Won't be able to have 45Kt of hangar space.    32, if I'm lucky.    Fuel, ammo, MSPs and spare crew quarters take too much space.    And 10Kt jump drive.    But that's kind of a given for such a big ship.   

The thing is, maybe I'll have to downsize the fighters a bit.   
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 12:29:08 PM by L0ckAndL0ad »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 12:05:06 PM »
Any vessel that goes into combat should have at least 2 engines so that in case of battle damage, it doesn't get instantly marooned. Losing 50% of your speed hurts but at least you can still limp forward while doing damage control. Big engines save fuel and act as damage sponges due to their big HTK.

Purely for PD, flak barges are better - pound-for-pound - at equal tech levels against fighters. PD fighters do work, so it's up to you. Beam fighters (outside of PD role) are devilishly difficult to get working effectively but as Father Tim said, don't let that discourage you but keep experimenting with different things.
 
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Offline L0ckAndL0ad (OP)

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 12:12:55 PM »
Quote from: Father Tim
C:  Small craft are the easiest parts of a carrier to modify (or replace), so I recommend experimenting.    Build many different designs, and even variations of designs, and play with them to see what works. 

D:  Sensor fighters are awesome!  My empire small craft always start out as sensor platforms, and only get aremd later when we 'realize' that might be a good idea.    Being able to send out 6-12 fighters to sweep the area in front of a task force is great. 

E:  As with most things, when my empire starts to arm fighters it starts with the smallest possible weapon, so as not to compromise the platform's recon mission.    The weapons slowly grow larger until the empire decides to split into dedicated fighters and scouts. 

F:  I swap around my fighter weapon of choice from game to game, so as not to grow bored with the same old thing.    Any choice can be effective -- but being effective means adapting fighter tactics to the strengths of the chosen weapon.    For this, I recommend lots of experimentation. 
Good old WW2 carrier aircraft (a big fan!) search pattern still works in Aurora with shorter ranged radar equipped fighters, doesn't it? Great to hear! Would be somewhat troublesome to set up, though, probably, but still.  .  .   Are there any automation tips for this? Beside the usual divide/merge TG and orders broadcasting. 

I would like to experiment more.   The biggest advantage of fighters that I value is that they can be produced in all shapes and forms without a need to retool the shipyard, so I can try out as many things as I want.   And combat experience is the best one out there. 

Thank you!
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2019, 08:02:57 PM »
My initial foray into building fighter scouts was because I wanted a smooth transition to building strikefighters, and didn't want a bunch of idle fighter factories waiting for the day I got whatever technologies I deemed critical for strikefighters.

I figured it would be an evolution paralleling the development of flight, first used for scouting and artillery spotting, and only later becoming a serious platform for delivering ordnance.

And then I decided that the FAC was a better platform for missiles than the fighter, and never developed 'strikefighters'.  But I had all these fighter factories, and railgun fighters were REALLY handy when I had utter crap for sensor scientists and needed a PD fire control.
 
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Offline DeMatt

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 05:32:43 AM »
Yeah, I read a few threads on this topic and I get the idea.  But then I looked up wiki and it says:
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The chance of destroying a component is calculated by:

  Incoming Damage / Component HTK
Meaning 2 smaller engines are twice as likely to get destroyed (12 vs 25), while they take the same amount of space on the ship (= same chance to get hit).  Am I getting this right? Also, bigger engines, while cost twice as much to repair, are 25% more fuel efficient, which also saves weight and resources.

As for combat situations, I predict that a ship that gets hit in combat will have to be detached and taken off the frontline anyway, because it'll slow down the whole TG.  When it comes to 10Kt ship, there will be enough MSP to repair it with damage control to start to get moving again.  Bigger ships will have at least 2 of such size 50 engines anyway.

That's my current rationale.  Of course, I'll need to experience more combat to evaluate this.    But bigger HTK is the main advantage, IMO.  Or am I missing something?
Bigger HTK per engineTotal HTK stays more-or-less at HS/2, unless you go for 1 HS engines.  So, if one engine is 25 HTK, two smaller engines would be 12 + 12 HTK, five smaller engines would be 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 HTK, et cetera.

The larger engine is more resistant to damage, both individually (per engine) and as a unit (per 50 HS).  But it's more expensive to repair, takes longer to repair, and while it's damaged the ship's not going anywhere.

Uhm..  Yeah, I downsized the sensors from previous 1.2M km to 1M km (vs MS6) to save weight.  I was trying to fit everything into 10Kt.  Was really hard to do, considering previous generation was 12.5Kt.

But is 1M km really not enough? My current missiles are 25000 km/s, and that's 250K km per 10 sec.
The way I see it, is that your Magic AMMs have 3Mkm range, and therefore have excess fuel versus what you can actually target.  Similarly, a hostile missile (of equal tech) would cross your detection envelope in a mere 40 seconds - allowing your destroyer only four AMM salvos back at it before it hits.  Consider the following scenario:
Quote
Captain Lock glared at his display.  The hostile contact - a ship equal in size to his Cole, if the sensor readouts were correct - had been content to stooge around near the limits of sensor range.  He dearly wanted to fire Sunburns at it, but every time he'd tried to close in, the bandit had turned to keep the distance open - leading to their current stalemate, with both his ship and the enemy idling their engines to save fuel.

Then, an alarm sounded.  "Vampire, VAMPIRE!  Sixteen missiles inbound, 40 seconds to impact!" yelled the sensor operator.

OOC:  It's probably conservative to assume 20% of a ship could be hangar space - which for 10kt ships, gives 2kt of hangars, space for four 500-ton fighters.  Let's say they're your 4x4MSP design.

Captain Lock's mind whirled, as computers and gunners reacted.  Sixteen vampires in four four-missile salvos.  40 seconds let his AMM launchers fire eight half-salvos of their own, totalling 32 AMMs in space before they hit.  The vampires looked pretty similar to his own Sunburn missiles, which meant each AMM had a roughly 40% chance of knocking down its target.  32 times 40% gave 13 intercepts... three leakers - at those speeds, his point-defense gauss turret might stop all three, it could put enough lead downrange...

...if he fired exactly enough AMMs at each salvo to kill it - too many AMMs in one launch, and he wouldn't have enough to stop the others;  too few in the first launch, and he'd have to spend a second trying to knock down the survivors.

It was going to be close...

OOC: to be fair, the Cole does have the shields, and Captain Lock doesn't yet know that these are smaller "fighter" missiles rather than his own powerful Sunburns, so he could tank two missiles without taking damage.  And since they are "fighter" missiles, he doesn't have to worry about an immediate followup attack, and would have time for his shields to regenerate.  But, given what he does know, can he afford to assume that?

My reaction that the antimissile scanner should be triple the size is mostly to do with matching your AMMs' range.  Nevertheless, that is probably the simplest way to improve your point defense - our heroic Captain Lock would not be so worried if he could fire a fifth AMM salvo, thanks to detecting the vampires at 1.2Mkm instead of 1.0Mkm.

I should point out that I plan on introducing anti-fighter capabilities into my fleet with introduction of 20-30Kt cruiser.  I'm thinning about dedicated anti-fighter radars and FCs and probably longer ranged size 2 missile.  How far out should I be ready to engage fighters?
It's not so much the fighters, as the missiles they can fire.  9Mkm is pretty good for keeping fighters away;  1Mkm is not so good for keeping missiles away.

I measured it'd be either 4x MS4 or 2x MS6, not 3x MS6.  Also, I do active radars on my strike fighters.    Previous generation had 50M km range.  150? Would be really hard to do right now.    Also, bigger volley = easier to overcome PD.

But yeah, I do LOVE to share common equipment and ammo as much as possible, so you are totally right to point it out.  I'll keep trying to fit it in.
This is one area where the fighter's fire controls and sensors would NOT match the missile's capabilities.  While the "right" number would depend on your specific opponent, I think 50Mkm would be plenty of range for the strike fighter's fire control.  (50Mkm, minus 50% for ECM, is still 25Mkm, what I think would be comfortably out of AMM range.)

I think that's another reason to drop the active sensors from the strike fighters, and instead design a dedicated sensor fighter.

I do have a dedicated SWACS FAC (actually, the only type of FACs I intend to use).  Previous generation was equipped with ~300-350M km active sensor.  But what if they all get destroyed? I do get the idea of such hyper weight efficiency, I really do.  But I'm not comfortable enough to gamble with this nor do I have too much space for sensor only ships.  2Ktons of hangar space is already too much, I'm thinking about trying to fit it on a 500 ton fighter.  Maybe with later tech I'll squeeze it in..  I hope to.
I feel that a sensor fighter's job (or that of a SWACS FAC - swack sfack? :P) isn't that of general surveillance.  Instead, it's "illumination" - I know that there's an enemy in this general location, go over there and pinpoint it.

In light of that, a 300Mkm active sensor is WAY overkill for a sensor fighter.  50Mkm would be more than I would be willing to spend for, but is a match for your intended fighter missile ranges.

Keep in mind the way resolution works - larger targets are detected at the same range as the rated resolution, but smaller targets are detected at closer ranges:
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target range = max range * (target resolution / sensor resolution) ^ 2To put this into perspective, the Cole's 160-resolution, 204.5Mkm search sensor?  It'll detect a size-10 fighter at 0.8M kilometres.  A missile would be able to doodle on that sensor's dish, being only detected at 719 (yes, that's seven hundred and nineteen - no "k" or "M") kilometres.

So you'll need to decide whether the sensor fighter should be able to pick up missiles (res-1) or fighters (res-10... unless you know how big your opponent's fighters are), before you start spending tonnage on giant "map the star system" scanners.

It's also worth noting that fighters are much simpler to replace than FACs.  The former, you just build in the factory;  the latter, you have to retool a shipyard to change them.

Also, I'm experiencing problems with fitting my new 100Kt carrier.  Won't be able to have 45Kt of hangar space.  32, if I'm lucky.  Fuel, ammo, MSPs and spare crew quarters take too much space.  And 10Kt jump drive.  But that's kind of a given for such a big ship.
I feel 30% hangar space is quite adequate for a general-purpose carrier.  A fast "assault" or "battle" carrier would probably be closer to 20%.
 
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Offline L0ckAndL0ad (OP)

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Re: Newbie questions detected!
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 06:50:51 AM »
DeMatt
My original intent for 3M km AMM range was to be able to fire at larger missiles earlier, because current sensors allow it.       But you're totally right, I'll try to squeeze a new AMM FCS and radar in, though it's going to be really hard.  Still, even 1. 25-1. 5M would be better, yeah.     

Is it okay to let go ECCM-1 to free up space? I feel my ASM FCS (the one I intended to use ECCM on) is already boosted to counter enemy ECM (175M vs 150M max launch distance of my ASM missile). 

In the mean time, I've spent couple of hours fiddling with new generation fighter designs.  I do understand that all of them being slow and having active senors will most likely be frowned upon by the audience, but I really want to have it.  Here are the resulting prototypes (Year 43 now):

Strike Fighter - Anti-Ship role (missile loadout for presentation purposes only!)
Can attack slow big ships with 4x WH9 missiles, and smaller faster targets with 4x WH4.       Can target FACs at 2M km, 250t fighters at 100K km (and, I suppose, 500t @ 250K-ish?).     
My AI neighbor still flies all of his ships @ 1400 km/s, btw.     

Code: [Select]
YF/A-3 class Fighter    465 tons     3 Crew     132.8 BP      TCS 9.29  TH 96  EM 0
10333 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 2.4
Maint Life 2.67 Years     MSP 18    AFR 17%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 4    5YR 54    Max Repair 48 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 16   

96 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (1)    Power 96    Fuel Use 274.36%    Signature 96    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres    Range 2.1 billion km   (56 hours at full power)

MS4-BX Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 4    Hangar Reload 30 minutes    MF Reload 5 hours
ASM FCS(F) 5Kt/55M (1)     Range 55.4m km    Resolution 100
AFM-41 Funny Man (2)  Speed: 35 200 km/s   End: 23.7m    Range: 50.1m km   WH: 4    Size: 4    TH: 246/147/73
ASM-41 Falling Star (2)  Speed: 20 800 km/s   End: 40.4m    Range: 50.4m km   WH: 9    Size: 4    TH: 138/83/41

RAD(F)-5Kt/51M (1)     GPS 4725     Range 52.0m km    Resolution 100

Fighter - PD/Anti-Fighter/Finisher role
No clue which one is better, really.     

Code: [Select]
YF-4G class Fighter    467 tons     4 Crew     133.2 BP      TCS 9.34  TH 128  EM 0
13704 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 2.28 Years     MSP 18    AFR 17%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 5    5YR 70    Max Repair 64 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 0   

128 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (1)    Power 128    Fuel Use 271.53%    Signature 128    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres    Range 2.1 billion km   (43 hours at full power)

Gauss Cannon R3-50 (1x3)    Range 30 000km     TS: 13704 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 50%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S00.5 32-4000 (FTR) (1)    Max Range: 64 000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0

AMM Radar 250K/2.3M (1)     GPS 21     Range 2.3m km    MCR 252k km    Resolution 1

Code: [Select]
YF-4L class Fighter    497 tons     4 Crew     145.4 BP      TCS 9.94  TH 128  EM 0
12877 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 2.16 Years     MSP 18    AFR 19%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 5    5YR 77    Max Repair 64 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 0   

128 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (1)    Power 128    Fuel Use 271.53%    Signature 128    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres    Range 2.0 billion km   (43 hours at full power)

10cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 64 000km     TS: 12877 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 4    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 2 2 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S00.5 32-4000 (FTR) (1)    Max Range: 64 000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor PW3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Armour 0    Exp 5%

AMM Radar 250K/2.3M (1)     GPS 21     Range 2.3m km    MCR 252k km    Resolution 1

Code: [Select]
YF-4R class Fighter    497 tons     4 Crew     135.4 BP      TCS 9.94  TH 128  EM 0
12877 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 2.2 Years     MSP 17    AFR 19%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 5    5YR 71    Max Repair 64 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 0   

128 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (1)    Power 128    Fuel Use 271.53%    Signature 128    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres    Range 2.0 billion km   (43 hours at full power)

10cm Railgun V2/C3 (1x4)    Range 20 000km     TS: 12877 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S00.5 32-4000 (FTR) (1)    Max Range: 64 000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor PW3 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Armour 0    Exp 5%

AMM Radar 250K/2.3M (1)     GPS 21     Range 2.3m km    MCR 252k km    Resolution 1
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 09:12:14 AM by L0ckAndL0ad »