Soviet Socialist States Navy Designs

[DizzyFoxkit (OP)]

Hey all. Wanted to post these here to share the ships from my current play through start. Critiques are welcome and appreciated although I am doing some things even if they may be less efficient for roleplay reasons. I'll try to mention those when possible, but I may miss something from my notes.

Aleksandr had the unenviable job of examining the current ships of the soviet line and presenting his thoughts to the Soviet Chief of Naval Staff. The man had recently been promoted to the position and wanted to look good for moscow. Alek sipped at his tea, and pulled the first group of classes onto his overview.

Code: [Select]

Kirov class Battlecruiser    18,000 tons     598 Crew     2383.9 BP      TCS 360  TH 375  EM 0
1041 km/s     Armour 7-61     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 27     PPV 72
Maint Life 5.91 Years     MSP 1407    AFR 152%    IFR 2.1%    1YR 69    5YR 1033    Max Repair 240 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   

CAPNT2 P187 (2)    Power 187.5    Fuel Use 110.05%    Signature 187.5    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,050,000 Litres    Range 9.5 billion km   (106 days at full power)

12cm laser M3300 (18)    Range 120,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 4-3     RM 3    ROF 10        4 4 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
FC2441 (6)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
PWR2-1-4 (18)     Total Power Output 72    Armour 0    Exp 5%

ASS M20R100 (1)     GPS 24000     Range 144.0m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Kresta class Cruiser    15,000 tons     442 Crew     1880.1 BP      TCS 300  TH 375  EM 0
1250 km/s     Armour 5-54     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 35     PPV 88.32
Maint Life 5.96 Years     MSP 1175    AFR 120%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 57    5YR 849    Max Repair 120 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 14 months    Spare Berths 1   

CAPNT2 P187 (2)    Power 187.5    Fuel Use 110.05%    Signature 187.5    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,250,000 Litres    Range 13.6 billion km   (126 days at full power)

Twin 12cm laser M3300 Turret (8x2)    Range 32,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 8-6     RM 3    ROF 10        4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
FC2424 (2)    Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     69 37 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PWR3-1-6 (8)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

ASS M10R1 (1)     GPS 120     Range 7.2m km    MCR 784k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Moskva class Escort Cruiser    18,000 tons     500 Crew     2440.4 BP      TCS 360  TH 450  EM 0
1250 km/s    JR 4-50     Armour 2-61     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 15     PPV 33.12
Maint Life 3.06 Years     MSP 3313    AFR 167%    IFR 2.3%    1YR 531    5YR 7968    Max Repair 977 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Flight Crew Berths 65   
Hangar Deck Capacity 2000 tons     

J90 CAP4S360      Max Ship Size 18000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 4
CAPNT2 P225 (2)    Power 225    Fuel Use 100.62%    Signature 225    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,150,000 Litres    Range 11.4 billion km   (105 days at full power)

Twin 12cm laser M3300 Turret (3x2)    Range 32,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 8-6     RM 3    ROF 10        4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
FC2424 (1)    Max Range: 32,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     69 37 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PWR3-1-6 (3)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Strike Group
4x Sverdlov Fighter-Scout   Speed: 2261 km/s    Size: 8.4

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Kiev class Escort Carrier    18,000 tons     372 Crew     2042.4 BP      TCS 360  TH 450  EM 0
1250 km/s     Armour 2-61     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 46     PPV 0
Maint Life 14.01 Years     MSP 3879    AFR 97%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 37    5YR 553    Max Repair 112.5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 14 months    Flight Crew Berths 146   
Hangar Deck Capacity 8000 tons     

CAPNT2 P225 (2)    Power 225    Fuel Use 100.62%    Signature 225    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1,550,000 Litres    Range 15.4 billion km   (142 days at full power)

Strike Group
16x Sovremenny Fighter   Speed: 2087 km/s    Size: 9.1
1x Svetlyak Fighter-Scout   Speed: 2111 km/s    Size: 9

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

These four classes were the core of soviet naval operations, with three of each class excluding the carrier being a fleet. The Kirov supplied the main firepower of the fleet, although Aleksandr had made note of the short range of the laser battery. The Kresta was to be responsible for Anti-Missile duty and yet Aleksander had his misgivings here as well. The turning speed of the fire controls didn't match the speed the turrets could turn at, and given the rumors floating from the KGB and GNU, they would need that extra speed. The Moskva was a more general support class, a sort of jack of all trades. However it carried a jump engine that would allow the fleet the ability to move between systems. The Moskva also suffered from the same fire control issues that the Kresta did, but was less reliant on it's laser battery with the 2000 tons of hanger space on the ship. Lastly, the Kiev has been a pet project of the previous Naval Chief. The only complaint Alek had with this ship was the same that he had for all the ships. Speed. In a confrontation with a fleet that did not rely on missiles, speed would be key, Not having enough speed would allow the other fleet to determine the engagement and that did not sit well with Alek at all. Against a missile doctrine speed was even more important; The longer the fleet was moving into engagement range, the longer the fleet would have to weather the storm from a continuous volume of fire. If those missiles ended up being able to overwhelm the defenses, the fight may end before a single shot could be fired.

Code: [Select]

Sovremenny class Fighter    455 tons     17 Crew     56.775 BP      TCS 9.1  TH 19  EM 0
2087 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 91%    IFR 1.3%    1YR 6    5YR 97    Max Repair 16 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   

FGTNT1 P18-75 (1)    Power 18.75    Fuel Use 152.5%    Signature 18.75    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 15,000 Litres    Range 3.9 billion km   (21 days at full power)

15cm laser M3311 (1)    Range 128,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 6-0.75     RM 3    ROF 40        6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
FGT FC4-523 (1)    Max Range: 128,000 km   TS: 1500 km/s     92 84 77 69 61 53 45 37 30 22
PWR0.4-1-0.8 (1)     Total Power Output 0.8    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Svetlyak class Fighter-Scout    450 tons     13 Crew     75.775 BP      TCS 9  TH 19  EM 0
2111 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 1.87 Years     MSP 11    AFR 16%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 4    5YR 60    Max Repair 54 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   

FGTNT1 P18-75 (1)    Power 18.75    Fuel Use 152.5%    Signature 18.75    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 1.3 billion km   (7 days at full power)

ASS M4-5R100F (1)     GPS 5400     Range 32.4m km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Sverdlov class Fighter-Scout    420 tons     11 Crew     69.175 BP      TCS 8.4  TH 19  EM 0
2261 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 84%    IFR 1.2%    1YR 18    5YR 277    Max Repair 48 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 2   

FGTNT1 P18-75 (1)    Power 18.75    Fuel Use 152.5%    Signature 18.75    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 10,000 Litres    Range 2.8 billion km   (14 days at full power)

ASS M4R1F (1)     GPS 48     Range 2.9m km    MCR 314k km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

The air-wing compliment of the Kiev was in a slightly better situation, having a fairly long range, they could close the distance mostly undetected. Alek still had concerns about their viability, but they might be enough to turn the tide in a close engagement. Both with being able to pull double duty as extra missile or fighter defense, and extra firepower on the offense. Of particular note was the Svetlyak, which could light up targets without exposing the main fleet to danger. A page pulled from the submarine warfare of the late 20th century.

Alek sighed, finished his tea, and gathered up his notes. He had a long day ahead of him with the Naval Chief, no sense in delaying it.

- Hoping to mirror the Cold War erra Soviet fleet with it's doctrine based around Trade Interdiction and Communication Disruption.
- For roleplay reasons, I have restricted the SSS from using missiles. Even though the soviets enjoyed missiles in the cold war, I don't see them as a core part of the soviet doctrine at the time. A little bit of number crunching may change this later though.
- Also for roleplay reasons, this set of ships is limited to using Nuclear Thermal engines. I'm currently waiting until Ion Engines are researched before I come back and address some of the issues Alek has with the fleet. Don't worry, his counterpart in the United Terran Federation has worse woes 
- I am aware I'm wasting 3,000 tons with the Kresta. This is for a roleplay reason for now. TL;DR I don't think an extra 3000 tons of weapons and power would make up for some of the flaws in the weapon system itself.
- Also noted: The dreadful speed of the fighters SHOULD be resolved by the next design, although I'm still playing with some ideas for them.

If you have any questions on comments besides the ones I've mentioned. Feel free to post and Alek will do his best to answer them. ^.^

[Barkhorn]

The fighters need some attention.  They're very, very slow.  They also have way too much deployment time.  You can save a lot of weight by dropping deployment time to 0.1.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

if the other empire's ships are comparably sized you could get some more sensor performance by adjusting your resolutions upwards.

suggest redesigning your 12cm laser turrets to be 8-4 capacitor rather than 8-6 to save some $.

probably more maintenance life than you need on the heavy ships

a note, soviets absolutely did use naval missiles during the cold war, but eh~! w/e.

[serger]

Really, first Soviet missile cruiser (Grozny) was build just 1 year after Long Beach, and thereafter Soviet Navy was even more missile-oriented, than NATO's.
(Soviets relied upon ship-launched shipkiller missiles, while US Navy relied upon their advanced carrier doctrine with air-launched shipkillers.)

Sovremenny is a proper name for destroyer, not for fighter, and if you use Russian names, such as Sovremenny, Kirov, Moskva and so on, than you must use Soviet name for Kresta class - it was Berkut or Project 1134 or Admiral Zozulya, while Kresta is a NATO code, based on inaccurate translation of Kresta Gulf (originally "Zaliv Kresta" means "[Holy] Cross Gulf", where Russian word "kresta" means "Cross' ", "[smth] of Cross" - such words are not self-reliant in Russian, therefore, it just cannot be used as independent word or name).

[DizzyFoxkit (OP)]

The fighters need some attention.  They're very, very slow.  They also have way too much deployment time.  You can save a lot of weight by dropping deployment time to 0.1.

Oh 100% noted here, I knew I forgot something. Yes the fighters are very slow, and while I could save SOME weight, it's not enough to justify it. (it goes to 427 tons compared to 455 for only 200km/s.) New engines that aren't entirely handicapped will do more to fix the problem then dropping deployment time. Lasers are heavy

if the other empire's ships are comparably sized you could get some more sensor performance by adjusting your resolutions upwards.

suggest redesigning your 12cm laser turrets to be 8-4 capacitor rather than 8-6 to save some $.

probably more maintenance life than you need on the heavy ships

a note, soviets absolutely did use naval missiles during the cold war, but eh~! w/e.

Ah had not considered changing the capacitors. As for changing the sensors, the other empire's ships just aren't designed yet, so maybe maybe not
About the maintenence life, I'm still not sure quite how long these ships would last, so I leaned on the safer side. After some play, I'll have a better idea of what I could feasibly get away with.

Really, first Soviet missile cruiser (Grozny) was build just 1 year after Long Beach, and thereafter Soviet Navy was even more missile-oriented, than NATO's.
(Soviets relied upon ship-launched shipkiller missiles, while US Navy relied upon their advanced carrier doctrine with air-launched shipkillers.)

Sovremenny is a proper name for destroyer, not for fighter, and if you use Russian names, such as Sovremenny, Kirov, Moskva and so on, than you must use Soviet name for Kresta class - it was Berkut or Project 1134 or Admiral Zozulya, while Kresta is a NATO code, based on inaccurate translation of Kresta Gulf (originally "Zaliv Kresta" means "[Holy] Cross Gulf", where Russian word "kresta" means "Cross' ", "[smth] of Cross" - such words are not self-reliant in Russian, therefore, it just cannot be used as independent word or name).

I'm aware that Sovremenny is a destroyer name just as Kresta is the nato designation. There are also a couple dozen other ship names that are not in aurora's name database and adding them in was turning out to be a pain.  The list of USSR naval names in the database is extremely limited and I'd much rather spend the time it would take to put those names in on designing new ships and getting the game running. I may come back and address it, but for now I'll be using what's in the default database. Though that tidbit of the Kresta I didn't know in particular is actually quite interesting. A bit like the Shchuka and Akula subs :3

[TT]

I think you should compare your deployment times to your maintenance life.  Your maintenance life is way too high.  I usually aim for a match between my maintenance life and deployment time with at least twice as much msp as my max repair value.

The craft are slow and rely on lasers. They are unlikely to catch their targets.  Your ships seem to be designed to function as part of a fleet but they move at different speeds. Your armor is fairly weak for ships that will have to close with enemy to kill them.

If I were redesigning these ships, I'd cut the deployment time to one year, reduce the engineering to match, redesign the engines to be less stressed, add armor.  I think you'll end up with a more efficient fleet. 

[Michael Sandy]

I am curious about the starting conditions.  Because in a conventional start, even if I set the shipyard growing after it is done making survey ships, it isn't likely to get to 18,000 ton capacity before Ion tech.

[Michael Sandy]

While I like early fighters, until you get Box launchers they are not really effective as strike fighters.  If you really want to not rely on missiles, you should have a fleet that is very strong at point defense.  Fighter fire control can hit missiles that have significantly higher engine tech.

The theory is then if you can shoot down all the missiles, which you might be able to before box launcher or x.33 or x.25 launcher size tech, and your beam weapons outrange the enemy, it doesn't matter so much if the enemy is faster, because you just head to the objective and force them into combat to defend it.

It works better on defense than offense, as it is easier to exhaust the missiles of a mobile force.  And you would need to be able to track and pursue the empty missile boats of the enemy to do more than fend off the enemy.  But if your naval builders had a very defensive mindset, and didn't wish to build an efficient offensive force for fear of seeming threatening and aggressive, it could work, RP wise.

[DizzyFoxkit (OP)]

I am curious about the starting conditions.  Because in a conventional start, even if I set the shipyard growing after it is done making survey ships, it isn't likely to get to 18,000 ton capacity before Ion tech.

Ah, it's an SM'd start, hence the rather large shipyards. The other faction will be getting some SM touches as well.

I think you should compare your deployment times to your maintenance life.  Your maintenance life is way too high.  I usually aim for a match between my maintenance life and deployment time with at least twice as much msp as my max repair value.

The maintenance life was addressed by Shoe earlier, but I'll expound on it a bit here. I have that long Maint Life as a side affect, not as a primary goal. The primary goal was to lower the AFR down to something a bit more manageable. With all the Engineering spaces on the Kirov, it currently has an AFR of 152%. These are slow ships, and as such take quite some time outside of port even for something as simple as transferring bases. Over the course of three years out of port it's likely to suffer three breakdowns. If those breakdowns are it's most expensive item, that's half the MSP on the ship gone. That %chance goes up by a lot by dropping even one for only 1HS of savings. That's ignoring that by the time the third year comes around that % goes a lot higher. These are big ships, and according to aurora's rules, they break down fast. With that in mind I decided to play it safe with the maintenance for the first generation.

The craft are slow and rely on lasers.

This has been noted. In fact the entire doctrine hinges upon having superior speed. So while this is a valid point it does make it seem like you haven't read the original post and just looked at the designs.

They are unlikely to catch their targets.

See above.
 

Your ships seem to be designed to function as part of a fleet but they move at different speeds.

"What are you talking about the ships all have the same sp-..... Huh... when did that happen?" This has been fixed ^.^ Thank you and good catch!

Your armor is fairly weak for ships that will have to close with enemy to kill them.

I will definitely take a look at that. I suspect that having faster ships would do much better and that we just have differing opinions on design here though. Feel free to explain this more though. I'm certainly not against hearing it out.

While I like early fighters, until you get Box launchers they are not really effective as strike fighters.  If you really want to not rely on missiles, you should have a fleet that is very strong at point defense.  Fighter fire control can hit missiles that have significantly higher engine tech.

The theory is then if you can shoot down all the missiles, which you might be able to before box launcher or x.33 or x.25 launcher size tech, and your beam weapons outrange the enemy, it doesn't matter so much if the enemy is faster, because you just head to the objective and force them into combat to defend it.

It works better on defense than offense, as it is easier to exhaust the missiles of a mobile force.  And you would need to be able to track and pursue the empty missile boats of the enemy to do more than fend off the enemy.  But if your naval builders had a very defensive mindset, and didn't wish to build an efficient offensive force for fear of seeming threatening and aggressive, it could work, RP wise.

That's actually a pretty interesting concept. Not quite what I was going for, but may just end up being that way in execution. Could you go a bit more in-depth on Fighter fire controls hitting missiles with significantly higher engine tech? It sounds like something I should at least look into.

[Michael Sandy]

Fighter beam fire control get a free x4 speed.  So if you have a base 4000 km/s fire control speed, your normal maximum fire control speed is 16,000 km/s with a x4 fire control.  But you can get up to 64,000 km/s with the same tech in a fighter.

Now, you would be unlikely to get a laser turret that fast in a fighter that can actually move, but you could get miniaturized gauss turrets into a fighter easily.  I generally start making PD fighters once I get gauss rate of fire 2 and some turret techs.  They aren't great, but they can at least engage higher engine tech missiles.

Between the fire control and commanders with fighter combat bonus, you get pretty decent anti-missile escorts.  But the reason that I personally went that route was because I went conventional start, and I wanted to build up my fighter factories early and have something to do with them, not suddenly start building them only after I got hangar and box launcher tech.  In a transnewtonian start, you can have all your ships built instantly to the same tech standard.  Tech transitions very differently in transnewtonian.

[TT]

Hello Dizzy,

I'll expand on a couple of points from my previous post. Unfortunately, I'm on my ancient Ipad so quoting is impossible (at least for me).

I reread your original post but I didn't see how you'll use lasers at 1250. Unless your oponents come to you, You are not going to be able to catch them.

I mentioned your maintenance life because becauseof the disparity in your deployment time and fuel load.  You have 5+ years of maintenance, 1 year of deployment and 40 days of fuel. It seems like you are carrying extra maintenance that could be used on your engine to make you faster.

You have slow ships that need to close with your opponents to fight them.  You are goingto have wade through all of their missle salvos when you fight.  You'll need point defense and you'll need armor.  7 layers is ok. 2 layer is too little. Even if you don't take damage from missles, you'll get shot up in the laser fight.

One of the cool things about Aurora is that you can design anything to your doctrine and RP. Maybe the issues I mentioned aren't really problems.  Good luck with your fleet

[Michael Sandy]

Actually, a disparity between maintenance life, deployment time and fuel makes a lot of sense.  A lot of time, you will deploy to a jump point and wait for a long time.  Or if you are attacking a planet, you will move to the planet and stay over it for a long time.  A lot of time a ship will be deployed, but not moving.

As far as maintenance time, maintenance rolls back slower than deployment time, and it is a lot easier to roll back deployment time.  Just park over any 10k pop undeveloped rock and it rolls back.

My theory on maintenance life is to have it long enough that I will be bringing the ships back for refit either the first or second time that it starts pushing into the maintenance limits.  The fuel endurance has to be enough to get from any jump point to the objective and back and enough for maneuvering, and I can extend that with tankers.  Prepositioned tankers, perhaps.  But the deployment time has to be longer enough to get to the frontiers and back without stopping, as well as allowing time on station, and you can't bring extra deployment time in a commercial ship like you can bring fuel.

I think having twice the deployment time in maintenance life is a good rule of thumb to shoot for.

[Michael Sandy]

There are some interesting strategic consequences to building a fleet with the slow beam fleet philosophy I mentioned above.

You can't really skirmish with it.  You either need to have enough of a fleet present to swamp the missiles, or you will get defeated by anyone with enough missiles to kill your ships.  On the other hand, if you move to a disputed colony world, the rival can shoot all they want, but they basically have to concede the world.  But all the rival loses is their ammo, not their fleet.  Which means not necessarily any huge hard feelings as there would be if they had to blow away a rival fleet to demonstrate their seriousness about their claim.

There is a huge issue of not being able to be in two places at once, of course, or of being able to really finish somebody off.  But if they also don't want to weaken a rival so much that some other rival gobbles them up, it could work.  Or at least make for interesting write ups.

[El Pip]

- Also for roleplay reasons, this set of ships is limited to using Nuclear Thermal engines. I'm currently waiting until Ion Engines are researched before I come back and address some of the issues Alek has with the fleet. Don't worry, his counterpart in the United Terran Federation has worse woes 

Just thought I'd quote this to prove the art of reading is not lost. If the Soviet's only expect to fight the UTE, who have worse engine problems, then bleating on about speed is somewhat (not entirely) irrelevant.

I would argue that given typical Aurora missile speeds and ranges, any kinetic energy ship is going to have to endure waves of incoming missiles in order to close with a missile armed enemy. Moreover unless your ship is incredibly fast and the enemy incredibly short ranged, they will run out of missiles before you close to them (or they kill you, but lets be positive here).

That said the thrust of TT's point is valid, as a laser armed ship to face off against missile armed enemies you will need heavy armour and/or lots of point defence. But you'd need that even if you had a massive speed advantage over your enemy, you just cannot close xx million km of missile range before any reasonable enemy design runs out of missiles.

[TT]

Pip,

A little more bleating. The issue with speed isn't that you'll get to the bad guys before they finish firing their magazine.  The problem is that you can't catch them before they return to their planets and reload. A faster missile armed fleet will be able to fire until their species runs out of missiles. These ships don't really have the kind of point defense that can weather that sort of attack and it won't take too many missiles slipping through to disable one of these ships.