Author Topic: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions  (Read 6719 times)

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Offline Balibar (OP)

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Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« on: January 30, 2010, 08:12:58 AM »
My portal survey team found a jump point, but it has a red box around it.  I assume this is a Jump Gate built by somebody else.  Does this imply I have found an NPR?  Or could this be a Precursor?  Or could it be an ancient and now extinct civilization?  Does Red mean I am KOS on the other side? Or is this just a default until I make contact?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 08:26:07 AM »
All jump gates look the same (orange on my monitor) on the system/galactic map and you have no way of knowing who built them - unless you remember building them yourself.
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 09:50:59 AM »
Quote from: "Balibar"
My portal survey team found a jump point, but it has a red box around it.  I assume this is a Jump Gate built by somebody else.  Does this imply I have found an NPR?  Or could this be a Precursor?  Or could it be an ancient and now extinct civilization?  Does Red mean I am KOS on the other side? Or is this just a default until I make contact?
Yes, this is a jump gate bulit by someone else. It could be an ancient precursor-built gate or an NPR could have built it recently. There is no way to tell the difference.

Steve
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 10:35:37 AM »
Thanks for the replies.
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 04:34:38 PM »
How do you cancel an overhaul?  I gave an order for Battle TG to return to Earth, refuel, resupply and overhaul.  So far, so good.  The fleet has a cruiser and a destroyer.  The cruiser was too large for the maintenance facility and I got a message that it could not be overhauled.  The destroyer had an indication for overhaul.  So far, so good.  

I put the fleet on Task Force Training thinking that would cancel overhaul.  The fleet went out on maneuvers, but the destroyer is still listed as on overhaul.  Now the fleet is out of orbit and if I give a move to Earth command I get an error saying that ships on overhaul cannot accept orders.  

Is there any way to cancel the overhaul?
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 06:32:13 PM »
Quote from: "Balibar"
How do you cancel an overhaul?  I gave an order for Battle TG to return to Earth, refuel, resupply and overhaul.  So far, so good.  The fleet has a cruiser and a destroyer.  The cruiser was too large for the maintenance facility and I got a message that it could not be overhauled.  The destroyer had an indication for overhaul.  So far, so good.  

I put the fleet on Task Force Training thinking that would cancel overhaul.  The fleet went out on maneuvers, but the destroyer is still listed as on overhaul.  Now the fleet is out of orbit and if I give a move to Earth command I get an error saying that ships on overhaul cannot accept orders.  

Is there any way to cancel the overhaul?

There is an "Abandon Overhaul" order available, just like "Move To" - try clicking on Earth and you'll see it.  Note that it takes time to abandon an overhaul, since it's kind of hard for the ship to sail when its engines are lying in pieces on the deck.

The behavior you described about maneuvers sounds like a bug (the TG should refuse all orders when in overhaul) - you should probably post it to the Bugs thread....

John
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 07:07:05 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Quote from: "Balibar"
How do you cancel an overhaul?  I gave an order for Battle TG to return to Earth, refuel, resupply and overhaul.  So far, so good.  The fleet has a cruiser and a destroyer.  The cruiser was too large for the maintenance facility and I got a message that it could not be overhauled.  The destroyer had an indication for overhaul.  So far, so good.  

I put the fleet on Task Force Training thinking that would cancel overhaul.  The fleet went out on maneuvers, but the destroyer is still listed as on overhaul.  Now the fleet is out of orbit and if I give a move to Earth command I get an error saying that ships on overhaul cannot accept orders.  

Is there any way to cancel the overhaul?

There is an "Abandon Overhaul" order available, just like "Move To" - try clicking on Earth and you'll see it.  Note that it takes time to abandon an overhaul, since it's kind of hard for the ship to sail when its engines are lying in pieces on the deck.

The behavior you described about maneuvers sounds like a bug (the TG should refuse all orders when in overhaul) - you should probably post it to the Bugs thread....

John
The ship being overhauled does not have an 'Abandon Overhaul' order available.  I am guessing that is because it is not in port.  I will post in the Bugs Forum.
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 07:16:15 PM »
I was able to use SM mode to move the ship into a TG that was in port.  At that point, the 'Abandon Overhaul' order was available.  Thanks for the info.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 08:06:43 PM »
Quote from: "Balibar"
I was able to use SM mode to move the ship into a TG that was in port.  At that point, the 'Abandon Overhaul' order was available.  Thanks for the info.

I see you're getting the hang of the workarounds :-)

John
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 11:32:41 AM »
This is a concept question rather than a mechanics question.  What is the incentive for colonizing?  If Earth has no population limit, then why would a colonist on any other world be more productive than one on Earth.  A factory on Earth contributes as many build points there as it would on Mars or any other planet.  Why wouldn't one just build mining colonies to supply raw materials to Earth where all the manufacturing is done?  

I can think of two possible reasons.  The first is to make use of governor bonuses, but it doesn't seem likely that 20% bonus would justify the infrastructure and effort to have minerals stockpiled in both places.  The second would be that mines take half the resources of automated mines.  In this case, one would see a lower rate of increase in mineral output until the factory count on the mining planet was over half the number of factories being used on Earth to make automated mines for a non-populated mining colony.  

Are there other economic issues?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 12:05:01 PM »
For most people it's simply habit, and that exploration is more fun than 'turtling', but there are legitimate reasons to colonize.  The mine vs automine situation you've already noted, but there is also that population growth is faster for small populations (max 10%, min 2% for any pop 100 million or larger), 'civilian trade' is only conducted between different populations, and that forward bases (for fuel, maintenance, and munitions) are needed and easier to create/support with a population (though it can be done without).  Most of the other reasons for colonization have been done away with by successive editions of the game, but there is also that it's a lot easier to tell another empire "MINE!" with a population present, than with a bunch of ships orbiting various rocks.

That said, I've frequently played (or more accurately, NPR'd) races that squat on their homeworld and bring resources to it.  Asteroid miners, automated mines, sorium harvesters, freighters and jump ships go out, harvest whatever minerals are available, and carry everything back to the homeworld where all the industry & population are located.  They also feature an extremely cautious exploration strategy, strip-mining a single system for everything that can be gathered before moving into the next.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 12:20:22 PM »
Another subtlety about colonizing: low population worlds not only grow their population faster, but devote a higher percentage of their workers to manufacturing, so transporting a million colonists from Earth to a new world results in a net gain of a few hundred thousand workers.

That being said, I think Aurora has always supported the "why bother" argument of anti-manned spaceflight folks.  I don't think this is due to any bias of Steve's, I think it's just the way the economics work out.  One of the reasons, IIRC, to put trade in was to provide an economic return for colonizing habitable planets with no minerals.  This is also a major reason for putting the mineral levels of Earth where they are - mineral shortages eventually drive your mining  off the planet.

One more note:  automated mines are a LOT worse in economic terms than manned mines, as long as the manned mines are on a planet with zero infrastructure cost (although with the new civie infrastructure, the infrastructure cost is now a societal cost that's hidden from the player).  Roughly speaking, an automated mine's return on investment is 1/2 that of a manned mine - this is a huge barrier to overcome.  So the message is to build up a terraforming fleet (or set of installations) and move them to cost~2 worlds to make them cost 0, after which manned mining is essentially free.

John
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 08:14:58 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"

So the message is to build up a terraforming fleet (or set of installations) and move them to cost~2 worlds to make them cost 0, after which manned mining is essentially free.

John
Are the Terraforming installations moveable?  They are much cheaper in resource costs that a simple Terraformer ship.  

Thanks to both Father Tim and John for their thoughtful replies.  My early mistake was to try to do everything at once.  I have to go back to basics and look at my initial mining output to see what activity (and at what level) is sustainable in the short run.  Then I have to look at the goal of finding mineral sources and the most efficient way to exploit them.  I think the mine cost vs automine cost is the key.
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 08:18:46 AM »
How does one save the game for future reload?  Let's say I want to experiment with something, but I want to be able to come back to the branch point if it doesn't work out as I intended.  Also, how would one, say, save a file to distribute as a contest game?  Give everyone the same start conditions and see what they do with it.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Miscellaneous Balibar Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 08:21:31 AM »
Quote from: "Balibar"
How does one save the game for future reload?  Let's say I want to experiment with something, but I want to be able to come back to the branch point if it doesn't work out as I intended.  Also, how would one, say, save a file to distribute as a contest game?  Give everyone the same start conditions and see what they do with it.

LOL - I just put in an FAQ about this last night....

John