Author Topic: Update on Progress  (Read 252771 times)

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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #600 on: March 28, 2020, 11:40:39 PM »
I do kindof feel like that valuation system would struggle with nearby but not adjacent systems of high value, unless a systems value goes up purely by providing access to valuable places.
 

Offline obsidian_green

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #601 on: March 29, 2020, 01:25:12 AM »
One of the things that has slowed down testing is that I've run into a logical issue with system value. In my original code, NPRs value a system based on existing population and installations, whether it is a logistics node, mining potential, terraforming potential, presence of low colony cost planets, proximity to other important systems and access to other systems that would be cut off by the loss of the system in question.

However, that can cause them to value systems a long way from their capital, based purely on mining or terraforming potential. That estimate of value will then cause them to order players and other NPRs to leave and because this might apply to many systems, especially when the races all have the same home system, it will rapidly increase threat and cause a war.

On the other hand, if they don't place value on these systems then they will not object when players claim them, which would disadvantage the AI.

Therefore, I think I am going to change system value so that systems where the only value is from potential, be that mining, terraforming or low colony cost planets, will be set as Claimed. Furthermore, NPRs will only Claim systems that are adjacent to an existing system that has at least Secondary value. Finally, NPRs will not ask players to leave Claimed systems, only those of Secondary value or higher. However, they will resist players demanding they leave Claimed systems. I hope that will resolve the issues above without disadvantaging NPRs too much.

EDIT: I am also going to add a proviso that NPRs will only accept claims on a system if the opposing race has a population in that system with an EM signature of at least 250. That is 5m pop without installations and would be valued as Secondary by the NPR.

Maybe the Claimed status is being applied too soon. NPRs could value systems enough to exploit them, but not make the Claim until they are actually invested with populations and facilities. It might be good for NPRs to value distant systems, the problem seems the premature Claim. What if NPRs could also demand systems remain neutral/free passage so they can stay linked to distant valuable systems without having to make Claims on those linking systems?

I haven't been following development changes (figured I'd just wait and see what the new Aurora will be) so I hope I'm not rehashing considerations that have already been made.

EDIT: Put another way, "realistically" diplomatic tensions would rise when actual assets/investments are threatened, which is separate from making the investments. It sounds like the original code sometimes had NPRs counting chickens before they laid any eggs.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 01:38:25 AM by obsidian_green »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #602 on: March 29, 2020, 05:48:10 AM »
Maybe the Claimed status is being applied too soon. NPRs could value systems enough to exploit them, but not make the Claim until they are actually invested with populations and facilities. It might be good for NPRs to value distant systems, the problem seems the premature Claim. What if NPRs could also demand systems remain neutral/free passage so they can stay linked to distant valuable systems without having to make Claims on those linking systems?

I haven't been following development changes (figured I'd just wait and see what the new Aurora will be) so I hope I'm not rehashing considerations that have already been made.

EDIT: Put another way, "realistically" diplomatic tensions would rise when actual assets/investments are threatened, which is separate from making the investments. It sounds like the original code sometimes had NPRs counting chickens before they laid any eggs.

What you have described, is fairly close to what I have implemented.

NPRs now value systems at Secondary or above based on hard assets. For Secondary, this is one of the following: Population of 5m, 25 mines, logistics facility, ideal habitable world, directly adjacent to to a Core system.
NPRs will value systems as Claimed if they are directly adjacent to a Primary system or they have high mining or terraforming potential and are adjacent to a system with a value of Secondary or higher.
NPRs will attempt to enforce their ownership of Secondary and above.
NPRs will accept foreign claims without further consideration only if they have flagged the system as neutral and they have detected player populations in the system with at least 500 EM Signature (about 10m pop with no installations, or about 4m with infrastructure) and no claimed or higher systems will be cut-off.
They will dispute foreign ownership of systems that they value as Claimed or above, depending on the variety of factors described in the Diplomacy posts.

This creates a more realistic system where NPRs are trying to enforce ownership of systems where they have assets, plus nearby systems, while leaving a band of systems around their territory where they can still interact with other races, perhaps even with small colonies from both.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 07:39:59 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #603 on: March 29, 2020, 06:41:46 AM »
Seems to me what the AI lacks the most here to model a more logical behavior is some concept of planning. Realizing that it won't be able to develop all that potential at once so it's pointless to stake "claims" on all of it from the start.

If you for example have 4 NPRs starting on the same capital system what you want to happen ideally (IMHO) if there are 4 adjacent systems with 4 different levels of potential, is for the most powerful NPR to claim/plan to exploit the system with most potential, but be okay with letting the others divide up the less valuable systems, because it can't afford to exploit all 4 systems at once anyways and claiming all 4 will lead to conflict with all the other powers that combined are stronger.

Basically even if it does not have any/enough assets in place yet one system is set as the planned expansion "target" anyways for when doing so will be feasible.

If you want to get more advanced here direction of planned expansion could then be linked to aspects of the NPR like isolation / xenophobia and such or relations to other NPR/Players.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 06:45:10 AM by alex_brunius »
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #604 on: March 29, 2020, 07:10:57 AM »
Seems to me what the AI lacks the most here to model a more logical behavior is some concept of planning. Realizing that it won't be able to develop all that potential at once so it's pointless to stake "claims" on all of it from the start.

If you for example have 4 NPRs starting on the same capital system what you want to happen ideally (IMHO) if there are 4 adjacent systems with 4 different levels of potential, is for the most powerful NPR to claim/plan to exploit the system with most potential, but be okay with letting the others divide up the less valuable systems, because it can't afford to exploit all 4 systems at once anyways and claiming all 4 will lead to conflict with all the other powers that combined are stronger.

Basically even if it does not have any/enough assets in place yet one system is set as the planned expansion "target" anyways for when doing so will be feasible.

If you want to get more advanced here direction of planned expansion could then be linked to aspects of the NPR like isolation / xenophobia and such or relations to other NPR/Players.

Yes, that is definitely true. In the original code, the NPR was basically claiming every system with value without the means to exploit most of them. The new code is much better as the NPR is only claiming systems it is already exploiting and then defending against claims on a limited number of systems that it is likely to be able to exploit in the near future.

I agree some form of quid pro quo is the next step forward, but I don't want to try to do that before initial launch. Once the current code is working, I'll look at the options for two races to resolve mutual claims on multiple systems.
 
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Offline Jovus

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #605 on: March 29, 2020, 08:55:37 AM »
I agree some form of quid pro quo is the next step forward, but I don't want to try to do that before initial launch. Once the current code is working, I'll look at the options for two races to resolve mutual claims on multiple systems.

This sounds really really exciting. One of my most prized assets in roleplaying is a sensible reactive world in which it takes place to help bring form to it, which is why I like tabletop RPGs so much when compared with even well-realized single-player video games. Obviously Aurora will never replace a gaming group, but it's thinking like this that gets it closer to the mark, at least for me.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #606 on: March 29, 2020, 09:37:53 AM »
The new version of NPR System Value is now working as intended, so another step forward. I am definitely struggling on time though as I wanted overall Diplomacy working by now and I am still making changes., so I expect the release will be delayed a few days. On the up side, I think the changes are a significant improvement.

Offline MasonMac

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #607 on: March 29, 2020, 11:53:54 AM »
I'll take your entire stock
 

Offline amschnei

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #608 on: March 29, 2020, 02:04:10 PM »
Just thought I’d chip in to say I think you should release it when you’re happy with the diplomacy functionality, not rush it in hopes of sticking to a mostly-aspirational March release plan from months ago.

Nobody’s going anywhere (literally).
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #609 on: March 29, 2020, 02:11:37 PM »
Just thought I’d chip in to say I think you should release it when you’re happy with the diplomacy functionality, not rush it in hopes of sticking to a mostly-aspirational March release plan from months ago.

Nobody’s going anywhere (literally).

The March date was originally set because I was picking up a motorhome and would have less time for Aurora. It did help me focus though on working on Aurora and not being distracted by other games. Now I have more a lot more time than I expected as the motorhome is likely to remain on my drive for several months. I do want to get Diplomacy working well though before release, as I don't want lots of bugs due to lack of testing. This is a particularly detailed area, as is anything with the AI, so it would be difficult to understand any problems from player reports. I am testing the key areas by stepping through the code line-by-line in debug-mode and monitoring all the relevant values as they change. That led to recognition of several design issues as well as spotting bugs, but I am steadily dealing with both.

Offline Inglonias

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #610 on: March 29, 2020, 03:56:33 PM »
Just thought I’d chip in to say I think you should release it when you’re happy with the diplomacy functionality, not rush it in hopes of sticking to a mostly-aspirational March release plan from months ago.

Nobody’s going anywhere (literally).

See, you say that, but the world is kinda ending at the moment* and I want to be able to say the game came out before the world ends

*=world may not actually be ending
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #611 on: March 29, 2020, 07:05:22 PM »
See, you say that, but the world is kinda ending at the moment* and I want to be able to say the game came out before the world ends

*=world may not actually be ending

I'm aware the world is going through some disruption at the moment. The island is completely locked down with no flights or ferries, plus my asthmatic daughter, who is isolated with my 9-year old grandson, was tested due to chest pains (she tested negative). I am doing my part by keeping her well supplied with quality wine left on the doorstep for her to collect :). My wife and I have been isolated for two weeks but I've been well-stocked with everything since the end of January (my day job is predicting what is going to happen) :)

However, the world has gone through far worse in the past and the vast majority of people will come out of this unscathed, if a little more aware of life's frailties. My wife, my adult children and my grandson are managing due to preparation, a lot of humour and an understanding there is no point worrying about something beyond your ability to influence the outcome.

In the meantime, I may as well take advantage of the situation by spending more time on Aurora, even though I am pretty frustrated I can't get the van on the road :)

https://lindylou-lifeinthecraftlane.blogspot.com/2020/03/weve-got-it-let-adventures-begin.html
 

Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #612 on: March 29, 2020, 07:27:52 PM »
Take your time and enjoy the coding.  It'll be ready when it's ready.  Thanks for the updates, though!
 
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Offline Marski

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #613 on: March 30, 2020, 04:32:19 AM »
I have no doubt we'll pull through this, what I am most certainly concerned is what comes after. It's going to be a difficult time for everyone.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Update on Progress
« Reply #614 on: March 30, 2020, 05:31:33 AM »
I was wondering if some kind of "diplomatic interest point" could resolve the issue with system claiming. Any AI receives a monthly value of "diplomatic interst point" and can save them or distribute them on the values it determines systems do have. Since these numbers are very limited it will begin valuing some systems more than others. If it then so happens that another player claims a system, if and how the AI will react to that claim depends on the relative number of "DIP" the AI has given that system.

Example:
Known Systems (Internal AI Value): Cygni-17 (22), Epsilon-2 (28), Arandi-9 (22), Alpha Centauri (9), Magellan-4 (15)
Every month the AI receives one DIP. Lets say it spreads them as this:
Jan: 0 - 1 - 0  - 0 - 0
Feb: 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0
Mar: 1 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0
...
Dez: 4 - 6 - 1 - 0 - 1

Next January another player claims Arandi-9. So the AI looks into its numbers. Since Arandi has a relative low DIP value of 1 it does not react.
In February the Cygny-17 system is also claimed by the other player. And since Cycni has a relative high DIP value of 4 here it will react - even though both systems have an identical internal value of 22.

With such a system you could simulate political interest. Maybe you even could link that system to the commanders and political leaders of that empire. Maybe those points are linked to the leader in your leader pool - and depending who is in charge, some systems will be to them of more value than others - and they will steer politics into that direction... .