Author Topic: Missile Design  (Read 2330 times)

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Offline wilhecomp2 (OP)

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Missile Design
« on: April 08, 2021, 06:18:09 AM »
Hello,

I have five missile designs for my campaign.    I have matching Sensors and Missile Fire Controls.      How do they look?

Orion AAM                             Missile Size: 1. 00 MSP  (2. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuvre Rating: 23
Speed: 20,000 km/s     Fuel: 250     Flight Time: 24 minutes     Range: 28. 9m km
Cost Per Missile: 1. 056     Development Cost: 106
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 460%   3k km/s 153. 3%   5k km/s 92%   10k km/s 46%

Engine pwr: 320%    Engine Size: 0. 50

Longbow AS                        Missile Size: 4. 00 MSP  (10. 000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 16,700 km/s     Fuel: 2,500     Flight Time: 3 hours     Range: 167. 2m km
Cost Per Missile: 3. 49     Development Cost: 349
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 233. 8%   3k km/s 77. 9%   5k km/s 46. 8%   10k km/s 23. 4%

Engine pwr: 305%    Engine Size: 1. 75

Arrow AS                         Missile Size: 4. 00 MSP  (10. 000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 18,050 km/s     Fuel: 2,475     Flight Time: 108 minutes     Range: 117. 03m km
Cost Per Missile: 3. 6328     Development Cost: 363
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 252. 7%   3k km/s 84. 2%   5k km/s 50. 5%   10k km/s 25. 3%

Engine pwr: 330%    Engine Size: 1. 75

Razor AS                  Missile Size: 4. 00 MSP  (10. 000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 13
Speed: 17,750 km/s     Fuel: 1,100     Flight Time: 52 minutes     Range: 55. 58m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0. 45   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 14
Resolution: 4    Maximum Range vs 200 ton object (or larger): 2,247,923 km
Cost Per Missile: 4. 256     Development Cost: 426
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 230. 8%   3k km/s 76. 9%   5k km/s 46. 2%   10k km/s 23. 1%

Engine pwr: 325%    Engine Size: 1. 75

Titian AS                                Missile Size: 6. 00 MSP  (15. 000 Tons)     Warhead: 9    Radiation Damage: 9    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 15,467 km/s     Fuel: 4,625     Flight Time: 3 hours     Range: 165. 3m km
Cost Per Missile: 5. 082     Development Cost: 508
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 216. 5%   3k km/s 72. 2%   5k km/s 43. 3%   10k km/s 21. 7%

Engine pwr: 330%    Engine Size: 2. 25






 

Offline d.rodin

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 07:11:56 AM »
too slow
Engine boost 600%
 

Offline davidb86

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 10:04:31 AM »
It is hard to judge the missile without knowing what techs you have. 

One thing I try to do is at least design my AMM to counter my own missiles.  Your AMM (Orion) has too much range and not enough speed.  It has less than a 25% chance of engaging your own AS missiles, let alone an enemy missile.  you really only need at most a 1 minute flight time (12 combat rounds), this would allow you to put more space into the engine and/or the agility.   
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 10:29:06 AM »
Orion AAM:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1.00 MSP  (2.500 Tons)     Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuvre Rating: 23
Speed: 20,000 km/s     Fuel: 250     Flight Time: 24 minutes     Range: 28.9m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.056     Development Cost: 106
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 460%   3k km/s 153. 3%   5k km/s 92%   10k km/s 46%

Engine Power: 320%    Engine Size: 0.50

 - As someone who really, really likes long ranged AMMs, this is way too much range and not enough speed. Halve or even decimate the fuel, then put that mass into the engines. Possibly fiddle with the agility to maximize your to hit chance. If you really want the range you have, design a second stage to extend it.

Longbow AS:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4.00 MSP  (10.000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 16,700 km/s     Fuel: 2,500     Flight Time: 3 hours     Range: 167.2m km
Cost Per Missile: 3.49     Development Cost: 349
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 233.8%   3k km/s 77.9%   5k km/s 46.8%   10k km/s 23.4%

Engine Power: 305%    Engine Size: 1.75

 - Small, somewhat slow, but quite hard hitting. That range is somewhat excessive and the accuracy leaves something to be desired, but against Ion / Magneto-Plasma Era enemies this has an "acceptable" hit rate considering the engagement range. I'd say halve or decimate the fuel, put the rest into engines, agility OR warhead. Again, if you really, really want that range, put it in a second stage that does nothing but that, that is to say, extend the range.

Arrow AS:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4.00 MSP  (10.000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 18,050 km/s     Fuel: 2,475     Flight Time: 108 minutes     Range: 117.03m km
Cost Per Missile: 3.6328     Development Cost: 363
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 252.7%   3k km/s 84.2%   5k km/s 50.5%   10k km/s 25.3%

Engine Power: 330%    Engine Size: 1.75

 - What is this missiles function? What does it do that the Longbow doesn't? Sure, it's a wee bit faster, and just a tiny bit more accurate... but it doesn't hit any harder or go any farther. It isn't any bigger or any smaller. Personally, I'd scrap this or convert it into a short range, high speed, high accuracy version of the Longbow. As given though, this missile is superfluous.

Razor AS:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4.00 MSP  (10.000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 13
Speed: 17,750 km/s     Fuel: 1,100     Flight Time: 52 minutes     Range: 55.58m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.45   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 14
Resolution: 4    Maximum Range vs 200 ton object (or larger): 2,247,923 km
Cost Per Missile: 4. 256     Development Cost: 426
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 230.8%   3k km/s 76.9%   5k km/s 46.2%   10k km/s 23.1%

Engine Power: 325%    Engine Size: 1.75

 - This missile is just bad. Not enough range to really make good use of Waypoint firing, not fast enough or maneuverable enough to be a good anti Fighter missile. The only thing the Active Sensor contributes is the ability to Re-Target mid-flight against a target that was destroyed, but these are too inaccurate to make good use of that anyway... I'd just scrap this one, to be honest; it's not worth the trouble to fix up.

Titian AS:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 6.00 MSP  (15.000 Tons)     Warhead: 9    Radiation Damage: 9    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 15,467 km/s     Fuel: 4,625     Flight Time: 3 hours     Range: 165.3m km
Cost Per Missile: 5.082     Development Cost: 508
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 216.5%   3k km/s 72.2%   5k km/s 43.3%   10k km/s 21.7%

Engine Power: 330%    Engine Size: 2.25

 - It's a bigger Longbow with all the same strengths and weaknesses. I'd just make this one bigger, to be honest. Go to a Size 8, change over to a Size 4 engine, then put the remaining mass into fuel for that extra-long range kick.
 

Offline wilhecomp2 (OP)

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 03:41:06 AM »
Ok.    I restarted my Game.   I am now in July 2123 and here is my AAM missile:
Orion AAM

Missile Size: 1. 00 MSP  (2. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuvre Rating: 23
Speed: 41,200 km/s     Fuel: 125     Flight Time: 52 seconds     Range: 2,142,400 km
Cost Per Missile: 1. 586     Development Cost: 159         Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 947. 6%   3k km/s 315. 9%   5k km/s 189. 5%   10k km/s 94. 8%
(Ion Drive)
Engine pwr: 600%    Engine Size: 0. 55   Fuel: 0. 05  Agility: 0. 2


Longbow AS

Missile Size: 5. 00 MSP  (12. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 15
Speed: 30,000 km/s     Fuel: 4,000     Flight Time: 15 minutes     Range: 26. 13m km
Cost Per Missile: 5. 762     Development Cost: 576
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 450%   3k km/s 150%   5k km/s 90%   10k km/s 45%

Engine pwr: 600%    Engine Size: 2. 0    Fuel: 1. 6  Agility: 0. 4


Arrow AS

Missile Size: 6. 00 MSP  (15. 000 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 31,267 km/s     Fuel: 5,250     Flight Time: 17 minutes     Range: 31. 95m km
Cost Per Missile: 6. 702     Development Cost: 670
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 437. 7%   3k km/s 145. 9%   5k km/s 87. 5%   10k km/s 43. 8%

Engine pwr: 600%    Engine Size: 2. 5   Fuel: 2. 1  Agility: 0. 4

 

Offline wilhecomp2 (OP)

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2021, 06:06:22 AM »
I keep restarting my campaign from one specific point to reach this result for Missile Design:

Orion AAM

Missile Size: 1. 00 MSP  (2. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuvre Rating: 12
Speed: 67,200 km/s     Fuel: 175     Flight Time: 62. 9 seconds     Range: 4,226,880 km
Cost Per Missile: 2. 028     Development Cost: 203
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 806. 4%   3k km/s 268. 8%   5k km/s 161. 3%   10k km/s 80. 6%

Engine pwr: 600%    Engine Size: 0. 70  Fuel: 0. 07  Agility: 0. 03

Arrow AS

Missile Size: 5. 00 MSP  (12. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 12
Speed: 48,160 km/s     Fuel: 3,325     Flight Time: 11 minutes     Range: 32. 85m km
Cost Per Missile: 7. 712     Development Cost: 771
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 577. 9%   3k km/s 192. 6%   5k km/s 115. 6%   10k km/s 57. 8%

Engine pwr: 590%    Engine Size: 2. 55   Fuel: 1. 33  Agility: 0. 12
 

Offline kilo

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2021, 08:07:00 AM »
I keep restarting my campaign from one specific point to reach this result for Missile Design:

Orion AAM

Missile Size: 1. 00 MSP  (2. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 1    Radiation Damage: 1    Manoeuvre Rating: 12
Speed: 67,200 km/s     Fuel: 175     Flight Time: 62. 9 seconds     Range: 4,226,880 km
Cost Per Missile: 2. 028     Development Cost: 203
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 806. 4%   3k km/s 268. 8%   5k km/s 161. 3%   10k km/s 80. 6%

Engine pwr: 600%    Engine Size: 0. 70  Fuel: 0. 07  Agility: 0. 03

Arrow AS

Missile Size: 5. 00 MSP  (12. 500 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6    Manoeuvre Rating: 12
Speed: 48,160 km/s     Fuel: 3,325     Flight Time: 11 minutes     Range: 32. 85m km
Cost Per Missile: 7. 712     Development Cost: 771
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 577. 9%   3k km/s 192. 6%   5k km/s 115. 6%   10k km/s 57. 8%

Engine pwr: 590%    Engine Size: 2. 55   Fuel: 1. 33  Agility: 0. 12

What kind of tech level are you at? It is hard to discuss your designs when no one knows what you are working with.

On top of that, I would suggest considering ECM and ECCM on your missiles, as these can be pretty useful or painful, depending on your tech level. Let us assume the enemy ship is using ECM 2 and moves at 10k km/s, your chance to hit will change from 57.8 to 37.8%. This can break your damage output. Missile ECM on the other hand can significantly improve your missile's performance against anti-missile weapons. Your AMM would have near 0% chance to hit against your AMM if it had ECM 2. It would reduce the warhead from 6 to 5 though.
 

Offline Agraelgrimm

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2021, 05:47:11 PM »
I Still think he's AMM has too much fuel on it. Like you need to have a size 1 sensor to use those AMM and Usually you have a few ticks to respond to the enemies barrages, so 57 seconds of flight is still too much. He would probably have what? 5 seconds to respond for a maximum 10 seconds flight. I would just make it faster without concern for fuel because of the distances. Especially if the enemy's missiles goes at 50km/s speed, By the time your size one sensor picks it up and you can actually shoot, (You have range limitations because of your fire control *and* sensor array, u have to keep that in mind) their missiles will reach your ships in 10-15 seconds max, so that big ass flight time is a waste. Maybe would be useful for station defence. I dont think it would be useful to have big ass sensors to compensate for the flight time of a missile tough. And keep in mind, if your AMMs cant intercept the enemies volleys, then your point defenses will have 1 tick to stop them and if too many passes trought you will start losing a lot of ships.
 

Offline CowboyRonin

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2021, 06:01:40 PM »
I agree with the points about too much fuel in the AMM.  There's another angle to that point as well; think about how big a Resolution1 sensor has to be to detect missiles at that range, especially at these kinds of tech levels.  I usually go for a max of 1 million km in AMM range at low levels, and that still leads to some very big sensors (Fire control is also critical, but those aren't nearly as big).  If you don't have the detection and guidance to go along with the missile range, the missile range is dead weight.  As someone commented above, you cannot examine a missile without examining the platform and without some discussion of planned tactical employment.
 

Offline Agraelgrimm

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Re: Missile Design
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2021, 06:43:53 PM »
I agree with the points about too much fuel in the AMM.  There's another angle to that point as well; think about how big a Resolution1 sensor has to be to detect missiles at that range, especially at these kinds of tech levels.  I usually go for a max of 1 million km in AMM range at low levels, and that still leads to some very big sensors (Fire control is also critical, but those aren't nearly as big).  If you don't have the detection and guidance to go along with the missile range, the missile range is dead weight.  As someone commented above, you cannot examine a missile without examining the platform and without some discussion of planned tactical employment.

Not only that, but we need to take a look at the magazines, wich means we need to take a look at the ships. You can have a badass missile, but only be able to carry 10 of them. You will need to fire some volleys to be able to get the missiles trough, especially if you are too far behind on tech. And that means be able to carry them on the magazines, so a missile design has to take that in account.
So not too big, not too small... You dont need 10 volleys per ship, but you will be dead with just enough for 3 volleys. Also, the missiles will need to be carried by a support ship, wich means that it has to fit it and that ship will be tasked to fit all the ships on its Squadron.
If the missiles are too big, you will have problems. I think a sizes 6 to 8 is the maximum amount you should be carrying around. Exceptions are missile defense stations.
Your missiles sizes are you, this is more of a think it trough and we need to take a look at the whole process, not just the missiles.