Author Topic: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser  (Read 2252 times)

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Offline jscott991 (OP)

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Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« on: October 19, 2023, 01:57:55 PM »
I'm about 20+ years into my restart and I think I've perused enough tips, reviews, guides, and my old posts here to ask if I'm the right track designing warships.

This is my current basic warship design using my top techs (I think). I have smaller ships that I'm using, but they are built using the same principles just scaled down. Oh, ignore the high deployment time. This cruiser design was originally being used to picket outer systems that didn't have a colony within easy range. My other warships are all 12 month deployments.

Is this an okay design?  I have almost zero experience at combat in Aurora, preferring almost to play it as an empire simulator rather than a wargame, so I have no idea how fast or long ranged NPR ships tend to be.

Allegiant II class Light Cruiser      11,772 tons       286 Crew       2,062.7 BP       TCS 235    TH 1,440    EM 1,500
6116 km/s      Armour 3-46       Shields 50-375       HTK 100      Sensors 8/11/0/0      DCR 2      PPV 50.64
Maint Life 0.58 Years     MSP 219    AFR 554%    IFR 7.7%    1YR 379    5YR 5,686    Max Repair 136.8 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP160.00 (9)    Power 1440    Fuel Use 50.0%    Signature 160    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 30.6 billion km (57 days at full power)
Delta S25 / R375 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 375 seconds (0.1 per second)

20cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 6,116 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 50,000 km    ROF 10       
Twin 15.0cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser Turret (3x2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 12-10     RM 50,000 km    ROF 10       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS3000 (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3,000 km/s     72 69 66 63 60 57 54 52 49 46
PD Beam R64-TS12000 Beam Fire Control R64-TS12000 (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 12,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Tokamak Fusion Reactor R8 (7)     Total Power Output 56    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS29-R100 (1)     GPS 1600     Range 29.6m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor AS6-R1 (1)     GPS 16     Range 6.4m km    MCR 574.5k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-8.0 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
EM Sensor EM1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes
 
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Offline non sequitur

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2023, 06:13:05 PM »
So couple of things
1. I would up the armor to at least 4 if not higher. that way it can resist a hit from a strength 9 missile and still have at least a little armor left over

2. would up the maintenance life to at least 1 year.

other thoughts:
I'm assuming that the turreted 15 cm lasers are meant to double as point defense. The problem there is that I know of few missile volleys that are only 6 missiles in size. I'm all for making this decision for Role Play reasons (something like "the imperial navy mandates all cruisers have a PD capacity of at least six"), but if you are looking for pure effectiveness I would probably put lasers of all one size no turrets and beef up the other defenses. You'll be able to fit more weapons that way.

With those changes it's not a bad ship. It won't be single handedly winning wars, but would be a perfectly good poor bloody infantry of the navy.   
 
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Offline jscott991 (OP)

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2023, 06:33:30 PM »
Thanks!

On the point defense question, if I'm not mistaken, Gauss Cannons are the preferred PD system, but I forgot to develop them and am crashing that line of tech at the moment.  I will pull the laser PDs off ships when I have the Gauss ready.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2023, 06:35:35 PM by jscott991 »
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2023, 07:08:12 PM »
Looks decent, i'd repeat the maint comment (add more engineering sections).

I would recommend an accompanying AWACS type ship (like a flying sensor).  Might also be advisable to go to a higher engine boost factor if you can, since its a beam ship so its going to need to race through an engagement envelope.  6000km/s isnt bad for MPD tech level but its also a beam ship.

I will pull the laser PDs off ships when I have the Gauss ready.

I usually go for a dedicated PD ship personally.
 
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Offline jscott991 (OP)

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2023, 07:12:04 PM »
My biggest question in this game is how fast beam ships should be at each engine tech level.

I read somewhere that if you dedicate about 40% of total space to engines, you should be faster than most NPR ships.  So that's how I've been designing beam ships. 
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2023, 07:28:14 PM »
To be honest it kindof depends on the design doctrine the AIs you are facing go for, which afaik has been semi-random for a while now.  I dont know for a fact if the target fleet speed/engine% is randomized, but it probably is.  For beam ships you mainly just want to be much faster than your intended targets.  I would say its not unreasonable for a beam ship to be even 50% engine mass and maximum engine boost factor.

I would say 5000-6000km/s is kindof normal speed for MPD level (again kindof subjective), but you might want to even gun for 10,000km/s or more for a beam pursuit ship.  Probably would need to sacrifice fuel range to do that.

e: if you have AIs with like 3000km/s ships then your speed is probably fine, for instance
« Last Edit: October 19, 2023, 07:31:37 PM by QuakeIV »
 

Offline jscott991 (OP)

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2023, 07:38:06 PM »
I've only ever fought one NPR.  It was in my previous 110+ year game.  It was an NPR whose homeworld, for some reason, was not compatible with it, so it was dying when I encountered it.  My ships were MUCH faster so I learned nothing.

I've heard that the bug that caused created NPRs to have homeworlds that were hostile to them has been fixed, so I probably won't encounter that again.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2023, 08:41:32 PM »
I would say its a little dangerous to be building a fleet with no enemy in mind, but if you want to hedge on a hypothetical enemy you should emphasize speed as much as possible over firepower and fuel range.  You could allow the fuel range to decay to even 3-5bkm (which might happen rather rapidly with no other design changes at high engine boost factor) and have a very fast ship that has a much lower chance of being out-raced (even at the same tech level, NPRs tend not to make really extreme designs).

In other words, I'd say at a baseline try to get as much engine boost tech as you reasonably can (like at least 4x imo but you can keep going) and then shoot for like 50% engine mass.  Worst case scenario you encounter a lower tech enemy instead and wasted money on excess engines/fuel burn but at least they cant outrun you.

Its worth noting if the game spawns an NPR in a newly explored system, it will derive its tech levels off of your own (i tend to turn that off).

As a stopgap you could build against whatever your max current engine boost factor is, maybe research a few easy techs first if the first levels are missing.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2023, 08:44:32 PM by QuakeIV »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2023, 09:13:48 PM »
Okay, so running through the list here...

11,772 tons
6116 km/s

These are the most serious problems with the design and I expect you to rectify them immediately. If there are not at least two zeroes at the end of each of these numbers you are playing the game wrong and will be shot out of a railgun forthwith.  >:(

That said for MP tech it is a reasonable speed for a beam ship.

Quote
Armour 3-46       Shields 50-375

Armor should be thicker. A beam warship must expect to engage in close-range exchanges of fire and take hits, so you need the armor to do so. Shields are okay but could be better - you need to develop the larger size techs, as shield efficiency scales with Size^(3/2) so larger shield generators are always better as long as they will fit on your ship.

Quote
Maint Life 0.58 Years     MSP 219    AFR 554%    IFR 7.7%

This is going to be a big problem because your ship will probably explode from engine failure before it even sniffs that 24-month deployment time. As a general rule, Maint Life > Deployment Time > Fuel Endurance unless you have a good reason to do otherwise. Fuel endurance is the shortest because a ship may hold position on-station. Crew deployment is in the middle since it is easily handled at any populated colony. Maint life is the longest since maintenance failures are the biggest threat to your ship, and maintenance supplies are more expensive and logistically-demanding than having 10,000 people on a planet somewhere.

Quote
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG

An Auxiliary Control is a good addition to most large warships - cheap to research, small and cheap to add to a ship, good to give lower-level commanders jobs, and helps boost crew training on new ships.

Quote
Magneto-plasma Drive  EP160.00 (9)    Power 1440    Fuel Use 50.0%    Signature 160    Explosion 10%

Consider using fewer, larger engines to achieve the same total engine power. Fuel efficiency scales with the inverse SQRT of engine size, so if you used, e.g., three size-30 engines here you would cut fuel consumption by over 40%. There is some benefit to using more, smaller engines in terms of hits-to-kill but I usually don't find this as compelling as fuel efficiency improvements - enough to use 3-4 engines instead of 2, but not enough to use 9 engines instead of 3.

Quote
20cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 6,116 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 50,000 km    ROF 10       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS3000 (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3,000 km/s     72 69 66 63 60 57 54 52 49 46

This is not enough lasers to seriously threaten anything larger than a shuttlecraft. The BFC tracking speed is too slow and should match the ship speed if you want to have good hit rates.

Quote
Twin 15.0cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser Turret (3x2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 12-10     RM 50,000 km    ROF 10       
PD Beam R64-TS12000 Beam Fire Control R64-TS12000 (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 12,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0

These lasers lack a purpose. 15cm lasers are too large and (until Capacitor Level 6) fire too slow to be good point defense, but these are too small to be main battery weapons when you could have more 20cm lasers instead, which is what I would recommend here. Also, note that you can make the lasers cheaper by using a lower capacitor tech level and still getting the same ROF.

BFC looks fine for the tech level, although your BFC techs are underdeveloped for the MP Drive/20cm Laser tech level.

Sensors look fine.

I would say the main problems with the design are (1) lack of firepower, (2) poor maintenance life/low engineering capacity, and (3) weak passive defenses (armor/shields). I will also restate that 15cm lasers are not really good for point defense as 10cm lasers work fine and are smaller + cheaper. Maybe this will change in 2.2 but for now it is not optimal.


I read somewhere that if you dedicate about 40% of total space to engines, you should be faster than most NPR ships.  So that's how I've been designing beam ships.

This is a reasonable rule of thumb. You can go lower for missile or carrier-based fleets, I like 32% as it tends to give nice round numbers.
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2023, 10:15:06 PM »
For a new player and at low-to-mid tech levels, it is generally advisable to build a fleet of specialist ships instead of trying to solve the Riddle of Awesome General Purpose Ship That Handles Anything The Screenwriters Can Imagine, aka Enterprise from Star Trek.

So your fleet should have a dedicated sensor/command ship, a dedicated PD ship and a dedicated beam combat ship (slugger). There are multiple ways which to achieve this goal, for example building a jump-tanker with a hangar and loads of MSP that can send a couple of sensor scout-fighters (think of AWACS) while also enabling supply of the other ships and jump capability and rounded out by the largest passive sensors you can achieve. That way you can leave it behind at the JP while the scout(s) go ahead to scout for the fighting ships.

A dedicated PD ship should only have resolution-1 active sensor and then either a ton of 100mm railguns or a bunch of gauss turrets. It's BFC should be as high as you can make it.

The battleships need to be fast, well shielded & armoured, and have lot of weapons to really achieve a mission kill on their targets ASAP. The longer a fight takes, the more MSP your guns will eat and the more chances there are for the enemy guns to chew up your ships.

A ship that tries to do all three roles is almost always inferior to its specialist cousins and, especially for new players, there is a huge risk of wasting tonnage by putting a little bit of everything on it, like you're making the space navy equivalent of potpourri. I'm guilty of it myself often enough! So yeah, I'd scrap that ship completely and go back to the drawing board, as sad as that is.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 07:18:04 AM by Garfunkel »
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2023, 12:48:50 AM »
I wouldn't necessarily totally scrap it, but building on the jump tanker thing a bit, afaik you can make a big commercial hangar ship for cheap that can ferry military ships to save on fuel.  It cant do maintenance but it can be worth it because the fuel bill can really hurt once these things start flying around regularly.
 

Offline StarshipCactus

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2023, 02:17:23 AM »
Allegiant II class Light Cruiser      11,772 tons       286 Crew       2,062.7 BP       TCS 235    TH 1,440    EM 1,500
6116 km/s      Armour 3-46       Shields 50-375       HTK 100      Sensors 8/11/0/0      DCR 2      PPV 50.64
Maint Life 0.58 Years     MSP 219    AFR 554%    IFR 7.7%    1YR 379    5YR 5,686    Max Repair 136.8 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP160.00 (9)    Power 1440    Fuel Use 50.0%    Signature 160    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 30.6 billion km (57 days at full power)
Delta S25 / R375 Shields (2)     Recharge Time 375 seconds (0.1 per second)

20cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser (2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 6,116 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 50,000 km    ROF 10       
Twin 15.0cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser Turret (3x2)    Range 256,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 12-10     RM 50,000 km    ROF 10       
Beam Fire Control R256-TS3000 (1)     Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3,000 km/s     72 69 66 63 60 57 54 52 49 46
PD Beam R64-TS12000 Beam Fire Control R64-TS12000 (1)     Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 12,000 km/s     84 69 53 38 22 6 0 0 0 0
Tokamak Fusion Reactor R8 (7)     Total Power Output 56    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor AS29-R100 (1)     GPS 1600     Range 29.6m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor AS6-R1 (1)     GPS 16     Range 6.4m km    MCR 574.5k km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-8.0 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22.4m km
EM Sensor EM1.0-11.0 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  26.2m km

ECM 10

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Warship for auto-assignment purposes

I didn't look too closely but I did see one major flaw, the tonnage is 11,772, a non round number. You can massively improve your design by making it a round number. I would like to suggest adding more MSP and engineering spaces, beam weapons need more MSP generally since they can suffer breakdowns. 12K tons is much nicer than 11,772 tons. Speed and armour might be a little light for a beam ship but don't quote me on that last one.
 
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Offline jscott991 (OP)

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2023, 07:32:06 AM »
Thank you everyone.  A lot to chew on in the overnight posts.

I use stable jump points so I don't use jump tenders or jump engines.  Also, I am unlikely to use fighters in place in starships (just not any fun).

But I will get on making the rest of these changes.

Just out of curiosity, why does the tonnage need to be a round number?  What's the advantage?  And isn't that kind of annoying to achieve (it must take a lot of trial and error to find the components that end in a zero).
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2023, 08:36:09 AM »
There is no reason for round numbers. Except OCD . All my ships have round numbers usually viaadding very small fuel tanks toget the size right, speed I live with although  it will normally be the same across the fleet
 
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Offline lumporr

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Re: Quick Ship Design Help - A Basic Cruiser
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2023, 08:45:30 AM »
There is no reason for round numbers. Except OCD . All my ships have round numbers usually viaadding very small fuel tanks toget the size right, speed I live with although  it will normally be the same across the fleet

The satisfaction of round numbers? A flat surface? A clean room? An orderly house?
 
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