Author Topic: Request: Rebuild to Template  (Read 1395 times)

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Offline Kristover (OP)

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Request: Rebuild to Template
« on: August 07, 2020, 12:30:42 PM »
Put some thought on how to deal with the replacement and upgrade aspect of the ground game - In my current game, I'm running about 5 Divisions of ground forces (each roughly 20 Battalions) with probably another 40 separate Battalions (my smallest ground unit outside the Marine Boarding Detachments, have about 18 of those).  Upgrading and replacement has become very tedious and I'm wondering if a good solution is to add a 'Rebuild to Template' button in the ground construction screen.  This order requires an open ground construction complex and the order puts the unit in a refit status like a ship would be in.  The difference in BP/wealth between its current state and the template would be the construction cost/time to refit.  This function would allow you the ability to replace combat losses in a slightly more 'realistic' and less gaming way than building and transporting replacement units - it would set up a unit rotation - and it would also allow you to upgrade the formation.  If you want to upgrade your tank battalion, than change the template, and rotate the unit back to a ground force complex for refit.  The disadvantage of this method is that under this refit, you don't get the old equipment back to repurpose it.  If you want to do that, than you have the original method of creating a replacement formation and manually changing it out. 
 
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Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 02:24:53 PM »
This would be great.  Another thing that would be good is a way to do that in the field.  Maybe a new unit called something like "replacements" that could be consumed to restore a unit to template, just like when a ship gets hit and has to replace a part using MSP.  We don't have to personally queue up a new beam fire control or whatever, it just gets deducted from the ship's MSP reserve.
 
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Offline Tikigod

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2020, 06:32:01 PM »
Whilst I like the idea and am all for it, I think the suggestion that the current approach is less 'realistic' and more 'gamey' is quite the opposite and the proposed suggestion is more a step toward a unrealistic/gamey behaviour to address a micromanagement headache.

When troops are lost in battle, typically more troops are simply deployed from home as available or are relocated from other locations to replace the losses. I can't see them uprooting entire battalions/regiments/divisions en mass and transporting everyone home whilst more people are trained to recover from battlefield losses.... if anything that would be a even bigger logistical headache.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 06:35:56 PM by Tikigod »
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Offline db48x

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2020, 08:09:32 PM »
Whilst I like the idea and am all for it, I think the suggestion that the current approach is less 'realistic' and more 'gamey' is quite the opposite and the proposed suggestion is more a step toward a unrealistic/gamey behaviour to address a micromanagement headache.

When troops are lost in battle, typically more troops are simply deployed from home as available or are relocated from other locations to replace the losses. I can't see them uprooting entire battalions/regiments/divisions en mass and transporting everyone home whilst more people are trained to recover from battlefield losses.... if anything that would be a even bigger logistical headache.

I agree that the game is trying to model reality here, and it feels like it does a pretty good job to me.

However, in WWII whole divisions were also brought back from the front lines from time to time, for various reasons. Heavy casualties, long tours of duty, movement to a different theatre, etc. In the book titled "The Liberators: My Life in the Soviet Army" by Viktor Suvorov, he tells the story of the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. During that invasion, one particular army had a complete failure of discipline. It seems that the area they were occupying had a large schnapps distillery, and they "liberated" its contents. Even after the officers confiscated all the alcohol they could find, the men kept turning up drunk; it turns out that they had filled all the radiators of all the vehicles with alcohol, and every so often they would spend some time under a vehicle "repairing" it. Suvorov and all the men of his division (I think I recall that he commanded a battalion) were shipped across Czechoslovakia one night, without any of their tanks, to replace the men of a disgraced tank division. He assumed that they in turn had been shipped to Siberia for re-education.

On the other hand, I recall reading a book by a British man who enlisted in a regiment of tanks. At the time, the regiment was stationed in Egypt, so he had to go find it. He sailed down to Casablanca and took a train east as far as he could, then I believe he hitched a ride on a truck. At some point he caught malaria and spent a month in a hospital. He snuck out of the hospital without being discharged, and found a pilot who agreed to fly him further east. Eventually he made it to Egypt and found his regiment, who were somewhat surprised to see him. So you can see that it wouldn't be terribly unrealistic for some elements of a formation to be recruited back on the home-world, and then make their way to their formation by civilian transport. Now that I think about it, I think he might have been a lieutenant rather than an enlisted private, so maybe limit that to HQ units? On the other hand, just after he arrived at his regiment they got orders to board transports and head back to England, after which they were deployed to the continent.
 

Offline ranger044

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2020, 12:36:15 AM »
It actually is pretty realistic that replacements have to be sent in from the home front via formations.  The US army does this all the time, when you're in basic training most people end up in the same units down the line.  During Vietnam and earlier the drill sergeants would become the platoon sergeants after training.  Five of my best friends and I all went to the same units as we about our time in the Army.  4 and a half years, three different divisons, but we were always in the same battalion/squadron (we were cav scouts).

The only reason this may seem unrealistic is that casualties rates are no where near what they used to be.  Brigades are now the main fighting units, whereas they used to be divisions and corps/armies.  Nowadays you may only need to replace a squad or platoon instead of whole battalions or regiments. 

It all comes down to granularity and how in depth you make your designs.  I usually go all the way down to company level and make reserve battalions with hundreds of troops available to be shipped around and fill in gaps.
 
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Offline Dutchling

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2020, 06:01:29 AM »
I think war-time reinforcements being done manually makes sense, but when I am done with a war I generally send damaged divisions (along with any other division I do not need in the new colony) back to Earth (or some other world that can produce troops) to reinforce them. It would be a great quality-of-life improvement if top-level divisions could remember what they consisted of and be told to automatically order the right divisions to be built to reinforce it.

Of course this would still not be the optimal way of doing it if you advanced in tech since last designing the unit, so it would not be a perfect solution.
 
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Offline Kristover (OP)

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2020, 10:30:36 AM »
Thanks for the input on my initial post and to address some of the points here, I wouldn't jettison the current way of handling replacements - in fact, I actively advocate keeping the current replacement model along with the new rebuild to template function. 

Utilizing the current system, I would do what I do now which is I create Replacement Battalions which I directly attach to my two Corp level Headquarters which manage my now six divisions of troops.  Whenever one of those divisions goes on campaign, I attach one of those Replacement Battalions (and Logistic Battalions) to go forward with them and as losses occur, I transfer from the replacement battalions.  Some fights I'm not losing much so those replacement battalions are able to cover the minor losses that occur and at some point I can rotate just those back.  Occasionally, I create new replacement battalions with the newer equipment for modernizing the force and transfer them to forward deployed forces to replace specific equipment and transport the old stuff back where I either destroy it or repurpose it - this is where the micro management hell really comes into play. 

Utilizing the rebuild to template, I've had horrible battles where Divisions have been shattered - or long sustained planet hopping campaigns where those Divisions have been reduced to 50% strength or less.  The number of replacement battalions would be too great and in those cases, I'm definitely rotating those units back from the front lines.  Realism wise, if a division has taken that much casualties it not only needs to take on new equipment, it needs to rest the veterans and then go through a train up with the new replacements and new equipment anyways which I figured would be 'factored' into the rebuild time anyways.

BL - with both options I would still have replacement battalions out there for routine combat loss and occasional forward deployed tech replacement - 'hey have you seen those new artillery pieces that just arrived? those will be useful' - but the rebuild the template system will be for my guys that just got mauled on Rigel VII or that one Brigade on Mars are still equipped with antique weapons so lets bring them back to Earth to bring them into the 27th Century.
 
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Offline Kristover (OP)

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2020, 10:33:17 AM »
I think war-time reinforcements being done manually makes sense, but when I am done with a war I generally send damaged divisions (along with any other division I do not need in the new colony) back to Earth (or some other world that can produce troops) to reinforce them. It would be a great quality-of-life improvement if top-level divisions could remember what they consisted of and be told to automatically order the right divisions to be built to reinforce it.

Of course this would still not be the optimal way of doing it if you advanced in tech since last designing the unit, so it would not be a perfect solution.

I think under the rebuild to template system, if you changed the template to incorporate the new technology without changing the name or creating a new template, then the rebuild will be to the updated template with the new advanced tech.
 

Offline Vastrat

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Re: Request: Rebuild to Template
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2020, 04:34:40 PM »
I think the idea of unit templates is a great one and would love to see it in game since it would not only add a bit of realism, but also simplify ground unit upgrades and the replacement of battle casualties.
 
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