Author Topic: My first Missile PDC  (Read 3318 times)

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Offline Zorbeltuss (OP)

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My first Missile PDC
« on: July 31, 2012, 03:56:59 AM »
So I've never used PDC or missiles before so this is a first draft of a planetary defence, my missiles are big as they are based on the ICBM size for flavour, otherwise pretty much anything is replaceable, this is also 10 year of research.
Code: [Select]
Espalmador class Planetary Defence Centre    6 350 tons     881 Crew     1144.6 BP      TCS 127  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 5-30     Sensors 1/315     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 72
Magazine 504   

PDC Size 24 Missile Launcher (3)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 90
Missile Fire Control FC189-R100 (1)     Range 189.0m km    Resolution 100

Active Search Sensor MR189-R100 (1)     GPS 31500     Range 189.0m km    Resolution 100


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections
With the missiles
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Missile Size: 24 MSP  (1.2 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 39
Speed: 27500 km/s    Endurance: 8 minutes   Range: 12.5m km
Cost Per Missile: 12.975
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1072.5%   3k km/s 351%   5k km/s 214.5%   10k km/s 107.2%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   28.35x Gallicite   Fuel x2500

Development Cost for Project: 1298RP
Is this a good or a bad PDC, also I'm thinking that as the planetary sensors exist, I needn't worry about Thermal or EM sensors, is that a correct assumption?

/Zorbeltuss
 

Offline icecoldblood

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 05:00:38 AM »
I have no idea where you got the idea for size 24 missiles.  Any missile larger than size 9 that isn't a drone/buoy just isn't worth it and is overkill at best.  It also has a rather terrible range for a ASM and the enemy could easily stay outside your missile range and fire his own missiles and with a warhead of only 5 it's impotent at best.
If you want to keep this ridiculous size, reduce engine space for warhead and fuel space.  Even then it wouldn't be very good as the reload speed would still be the same.
The PDC can only fire 3 missiles at once and with a 90s reload speed,  it'd be dead after only one launch especially with it's paper-thin armour.

I believe you are misguided in thinking hit chances were extremely important.  Smaller missiles in larger quantities can be better.  See this thread for an analysis on missile sizes, see this thread: hxxp: aurora2. pentarch. org/index. php/topic,4926. 0. html
Besides, you won't meet NPR's with full sized 10k km/s ships until a very long time.  Unless you meet one of the spoilers.
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 05:16:39 AM »
Is this a good or a bad PDC, also I'm thinking that as the planetary sensors exist, I needn't worry about Thermal or EM sensors, is that a correct assumption?

/Zorbeltuss
If you are planning to build more than one PDC on the planet you could use two different designs, one with a sensor, one without. Basically, you only need one active sensor on the planet, and building multiple ones wastes precious resources. Preferably the PDC with the sensor should be more heavily armoured.

Your PDC has a relatively large magazine capacity. Note that you can reload from populations (unless your PDC is under ground attack), so there is little reason to keep more ordinance than required for one reload in the PDC itself. This could significantly reduce the costs of the PDC.

Your missile has several shortcomings. The range is way too low – merely 12.5m km wont get you anywhere. You can try to match that range to your firecontrolls’ range of 189m km. The Warhead is way too small too. I would expect a strength 5 warhead on something like an early size-4 missile. Certainly a size-24 missile should have something like a strength 25 warhead at early tech. It would also be nice to add a small sensor (maybe 0.05 thermal). This would allow excess missiles that remain after a target is destroyed to engage another target. Seeing how large your missiles are, this a comparatively small investment while allowing great returns (it would be a waste to produce much of an overkill with so huge missiles). The thing that is is probably overpower on the missiles is agility. 39 is pretty high even for most AMMs, I find ASMs should have something in the range of 11-15 agility most of the time.
 

Offline Zorbeltuss (OP)

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 06:30:12 AM »
Quote from: icecoldblood link=topic=5140. msg52537#msg52537 date=1343728838
I have no idea where you got the idea for size 24 missiles.   Any missile larger than size 9 that isn't a drone/buoy just isn't worth it and is overkill at best.   It also has a rather terrible range for a ASM and the enemy could easily stay outside your missile range and fire his own missiles and with a warhead of only 5 it's impotent at best. 
If you want to keep this ridiculous size, reduce engine space for warhead and fuel space.   Even then it wouldn't be very good as the reload speed would still be the same. 
The PDC can only fire 3 missiles at once and with a 90s reload speed,  it'd be dead after only one launch especially with it's paper-thin armour.
The ICBMs that are available at the start of the game are of size 24 thats why I want to use that size, I was thinking of maybe doing a multiple warhead version of it however were there are maybe 3-9 second stage missiles instead would that be a better alternative?

Quote from: icecoldblood link=topic=5140. msg52537#msg52537 date=1343728838
I believe you are misguided in thinking hit chances were extremely important.   Smaller missiles in larger quantities can be better.   See this thread for an analysis on missile sizes, see this thread: hxxp: aurora2.  pentarch.  org/index.  php/topic,4926.  0.  html
Besides, you won't meet NPR's with full sized 10k km/s ships until a very long time.   Unless you meet one of the spoilers.
Yes I was under the assumption that hit chances were extremely important.
Why is the speed of 10 k km/s important, do I have too fast missiles or is it something else?



Quote from: Theokrat link=topic=5140. msg52540#msg52540 date=1343729799
If you are planning to build more than one PDC on the planet you could use two different designs, one with a sensor, one without.  Basically, you only need one active sensor on the planet, and building multiple ones wastes precious resources.  Preferably the PDC with the sensor should be more heavily armoured.
Oh, thats nice, I'm guessing that the sensor might not need to be a combatant station either.  But does one need any passive sensors on PDC ever?

Quote from: Theokrat link=topic=5140. msg52540#msg52540 date=1343729799
Your PDC has a relatively large magazine capacity.  Note that you can reload from populations (unless your PDC is under ground attack), so there is little reason to keep more ordinance than required for one reload in the PDC itself.  This could significantly reduce the costs of the PDC.
That's also very nice, I'm guessing that that reload will be automatically as fast or faster thaqn any other reload, is that a correct assumption?

Quote from: Theokrat link=topic=5140. msg52540#msg52540 date=1343729799
Your missile has several shortcomings.  The range is way too low – merely 12. 5m km wont get you anywhere.  You can try to match that range to your firecontrolls’ range of 189m km.  The Warhead is way too small too.  I would expect a strength 5 warhead on something like an early size-4 missile.  Certainly a size-24 missile should have something like a strength 25 warhead at early tech.  It would also be nice to add a small sensor (maybe 0. 05 thermal).  This would allow excess missiles that remain after a target is destroyed to engage another target.  Seeing how large your missiles are, this a comparatively small investment while allowing great returns (it would be a waste to produce much of an overkill with so huge missiles).  The thing that is is probably overpower on the missiles is agility.  39 is pretty high even for most AMMs, I find ASMs should have something in the range of 11-15 agility most of the time.
The range is because of me misreading numbers :P, the warhead will be fixed in the revision, I just have no real idea of what scale damage comes in in an ordinary fight.
Will the sensors target other ships automatically if necessary and why would one use thermal and not EM or Active sensors? Agility will also be fixed in upcoming revision.

/Zorbeltuss who will post revision in a few hours
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 07:29:20 AM »
The ICBMs that are available at the start of the game are of size 24 thats why I want to use that size, I was thinking of maybe doing a multiple warhead version of it however were there are maybe 3-9 second stage missiles instead would that be a better alternative?

Well apart from role playing there is really little reason for size-24. But role playing is valid in my book, so why not size 24. The issue from a game perspective is that one size-24 missile is just as easy to intercept as one size-4 missile. So if you launch six size-4 missiles you are much more likely to overcome enemy anti-missile defences. But to actually answer your question: Yes, separate second-stage missiles would be a good move, just make sure they separate from the main missile at sufficient distance from the target (so that the main missile wont get shot down before releasing its submunition).

Yes I was under the assumption that hit chances were extremely important.
Why is the speed of 10 k km/s important, do I have too fast missiles or is it something else?

Hitchances are just one aspect. Think about it in terms of “expected damage”, i.e. the product of hitchance and the warhead. You are very much likely better off by emphasising the warhead more.
Your missile is 107% sure to hit a target moving 10k km/s. Of course hitchances are gets capped at 100%, so you waste a bit of missile space already. The argument becomes even more critical when applied to more likely target. Say you encounter an enemy moving 5k km/s, then you would have a hitchance of 214% - way over the top!

Oh, thats nice, I'm guessing that the sensor might not need to be a combatant station either.  But does one need any passive sensors on PDC ever?

Correct. I typically have one “command PDC” with heavy armour to host the active sensor, and several outlets that are nothing more than launchers and firecontrolls, small enough to be pre-fabricated in one section. There are so many of these outlets that an attack on these should be rather frustrating, forcing an attack to commence on the much more heavily armoured command centre.

You do not need passive sensors ever, and if you have ground-based tracking stations then they are completely superfluous on PDCs.

That's also very nice, I'm guessing that that reload will be automatically as fast or faster than any other reload, is that a correct assumption?


Refilling a ships or PDC’s magazines from a population is instantaneous (you can do so between turns), the subsequent reload of the missile tubes occurs at the normal rate, yes.

The range is because of me misreading numbers :P, the warhead will be fixed in the revision, I just have no real idea of what scale damage comes in in an ordinary fight.
Will the sensors target other ships automatically if necessary and why would one use thermal and not EM or Active sensors? Agility will also be fixed in upcoming revision.


It will automatically target enemy ships that are in range of the sensor, if its primary target has disappeared. Active sensors emit radiation that is detectable by enemy EM sensors, which has the effect of providing an advance warning of an impeding missile attack to the enemy. If he knew that already it wont make much of a difference, but often it is possible to get in one salvo before he knows what is happening if the missiles do not have active sensors. EM sensors only home in on enemy active sensors and not all ships have theirs activated, while all ships do emit thermal radiation.

If you post your tech specifics I could run a little simulations to determine a likely best missile. I would need your engine, warhead, agility and fuel efficiency techs, along with your enemies observed best speed.
 

Offline Person012345

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 08:46:56 AM »
If you do a 2stage with submunitions, it might be a good idea to use a drone for the first stage, as this will give you much greater range, and hopefully the first stage won't be facing anti-missile defences anyway.
 

Offline Zorbeltuss (OP)

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 10:41:01 AM »
First off, my updated missiles and bases.
Detecting PDC.
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Espalmador class Planetary Defence Centre    2 000 tons     82 Crew     476.6 BP      TCS 40  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 14-14     Sensors 1/315     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0

Active Search Sensor MR189-R100 (1)     GPS 31500     Range 189.0m km    Resolution 100


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 1 sections
Armed PDC
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Victoria class Planetary Defence Centre    6 250 tons     1032 Crew     952 BP      TCS 125  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 5-30     Sensors 1/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 96
Magazine 312   

Fuel Capacity 50 000 Litres    Range N/A
PDC Size 24 Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 90
Missile Fire Control FC189-R100 (1)     Range 189.0m km    Resolution 100


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections
Planetary Defence Missile
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Missile Size: 24 MSP  (1.2 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 10000 km/s    Endurance: 83 minutes   Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 14.696
Second Stage: Size 4 Anti-ship Missile x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 49 000 000 km
Overall Endurance: 3 hours   Overall Range: 162.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 100%   3k km/s 30%   5k km/s 20%   10k km/s 10%
Materials Required:    5x Tritanium   0.096x Uridium   8.478x Gallicite   Fuel x10000
Submunitions
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Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 21000 km/s    Endurance: 89 minutes   Range: 112.5m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.024    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.674
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 210%   3k km/s 70%   5k km/s 42%   10k km/s 21%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   0.024x Uridium   1.182x Gallicite   Fuel x3750
The reason I do not use a drone for delivery is because I have really bad drone engines as of yet, I want the package to at least probably approach the enemy.


Quote from: Theokrat link=topic=5140. msg52545#msg52545 date=1343737760
Hitchances are just one aspect.  Think about it in terms of “expected damage”, i. e.  the product of hitchance and the warhead.  You are very much likely better off by emphasising the warhead more.
Your missile is 107% sure to hit a target moving 10k km/s.  Of course hitchances are gets capped at 100%, so you waste a bit of missile space already.  The argument becomes even more critical when applied to more likely target.  Say you encounter an enemy moving 5k km/s, then you would have a hitchance of 214% - way over the top!
Here's apparently me misreading again, I thought that it was distance, not speed.  I feel kind of silly now.

Quote from: Theokrat link=topic=5140. msg52545#msg52545 date=1343737760
If you post your tech specifics I could run a little simulations to determine a likely best missile.  I would need your engine, warhead, agility and fuel efficiency techs, along with your enemies observed best speed.
Engine is 3 per MSP, Warhead is 5, agility is 64, and fuel efficency is 0. 6 thermal sensor is 0. 3 if thats important.
The only observed speed I've seen as of yet is 3300 km/s.

Thanks for all the help too, its great to be able to start understanding the missile part of the game.
/Zorbeltuss
 

Offline Person012345

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 10:46:06 AM »
The reason I do not use a drone for delivery is because I have really bad drone engines as of yet, I want the package to at least probably approach the enemy.
Drones will always be slow, but if you have them detach 20 million+ km away from the enemy they should be well outside of enemy PD range and you can use the faster payloads to approach.
 

Offline Zorbeltuss (OP)

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 11:03:23 AM »
Quote from: Person012345 link=topic=5140. msg52552#msg52552 date=1343749566
Drones will always be slow, but if you have them detach 20 million+ km away from the enemy they should be well outside of enemy PD range and you can use the faster payloads to approach.
I don't even have nuclear pulse for my drones yet, while the missiles have Ion drive, when I have extra time to tech up the drones to the current level (which will be after I am at the next stage of engines, I will of course update the design to use drones but as of now, I don't want any considerable loss of performance if the enemy fleet is retreating which currently would be the case.

/Zorbeltuss
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »
First off, my updated missiles and bases.
Detecting PDC.
Code: [Select]
Espalmador class Planetary Defence Centre    2 000 tons     82 Crew     476.6 BP      TCS 40  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 14-14     Sensors 1/315     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0

Active Search Sensor MR189-R100 (1)     GPS 31500     Range 189.0m km    Resolution 100


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 1 sections

Looks good to me.

Armed PDC
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Victoria class Planetary Defence Centre    6 250 tons     1032 Crew     952 BP      TCS 125  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 5-30     Sensors 1/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 96
Magazine 312    

Fuel Capacity 50 000 Litres    Range N/A
PDC Size 24 Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 90
Missile Fire Control FC189-R100 (1)     Range 189.0m km    Resolution 100


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 3 sections

You don’t really need fuel on a PDC. The magazine is still kind of big, if you would reduce it a bit you might get down to maybe 2 sections. But that is not a must, the PDC would work in its intended role.

Planetary Defence Missile
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Missile Size: 24 MSP  (1.2 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 10000 km/s    Endurance: 83 minutes   Range: 50.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 14.696
Second Stage: Size 4 Anti-ship Missile x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 49 000 000 km
Overall Endurance: 3 hours   Overall Range: 162.5m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 100%   3k km/s 30%   5k km/s 20%   10k km/s 10%
Materials Required:    5x Tritanium   0.096x Uridium   8.478x Gallicite   Fuel x10000
Submunitions
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Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 21000 km/s    Endurance: 89 minutes   Range: 112.5m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.024    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.674
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 210%   3k km/s 70%   5k km/s 42%   10k km/s 21%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   0.024x Uridium   1.182x Gallicite   Fuel x3750
The reason I do not use a drone for delivery is because I have really bad drone engines as of yet, I want the package to at least probably approach the enemy.

Your second stage separates from the main missiles at a distance of 49m km to the target. Yet it has a range of 112.5m km. Assuming a stationary target you would have wasted fuel for 60m km (or about 0.75 missile size points, nearly 20% of your missile size). Against a target that is not moving, the range of the second stage and it separation distance should be equal.

Of course there is the possibility that the target is moving away from your missiles. If the separation distance was equal to the range of the second stage, the target would move out of range before the second stage has a chance to get there.

Let’s assume an enemy moving away from you at 5k km/s (just to be on the safe side). You would want a separation range of 85m km (=112.5m km * {21k km/s – 5k km/s}/21k km/s) for your current designs.

However you might want to reconsider the range of the second stages. The principal benefit of a two-staged missile is that the bulky fuel tank required for the long journey gets “dumped” with the first stage. The loss of dead weight allows the second stage a considerably faster final approach. To maximize this the range of the second stage should be just enough to keep the first stage out of harm’s way. I would say 20m km is plenty. (Actually for most designs I would go with maybe 5m km, but a size-24 first stage is huge and can be detected from further away).

You could redesign your second stage missile as a size-2 missile with the same warhead, sensor and agility, but only a range of 20m km. Then compensate by an increased range of 150m km on the first stage. The range would be pretty much identical, but your second stage would be nearly 25% faster (25,300 instead of 21,000 if my excel aint wrong) and thus also more likely to hit (and less likely to get intercepted).

EDIT: You would also want an agility rating of at least 11 in most cases. This first "extra agility" (beyond the standard of 10) comes at half the costs of subsequent points due to rounding. I.e. you only need 10.51 in order get a rating of 11, while you need 11.51 to get 12. Thus the first point comes at a cost of 0.51, while the second point has to be bought at full costs. Sorry if this is confusing. Thing to take away is to use at least 11 for the second stage, most of the time even a bit more like 14.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:41:47 AM by Theokrat »
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: My first Missile PDC
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 06:41:41 AM »
Thanks for the tutorial in two stage missile design Theokrat, I found it very useful :)