Author Topic: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors  (Read 579 times)

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Offline Jovus

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Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« on: August 10, 2017, 11:54:17 PM »
Total newbie here; so sorry if this is in the wrong place.  It seemed the most fitting.

I have two unrelated questions.

1) CIWS requires several techs.  Turret tracking speed is one of them.  The rest of them, I can clearly see the changes different choices make in the tech design screen, but I don't see any difference for turret tracking speed at all.  Is this a bug? Does it do something I'm missing? I'd expect it to change the tracking speed stat, or make the turret HS smaller, but I see nothing.

2) From the wiki:

Quote from: Aurora 4x Wiki
The most simple missile designs have no sensors at all.  They are guided to the target by the firing ships' fire control.  If that fire control is destroyed or you lose the active sensor contact (usually because another salvo already destroyed the target), the missiles self-destruct. 

. . .

A missile with a sensor will not look for new targets until the original target contact is lost, in which case it will continue to fly toward the last known location while in search mode.  It will engage any enemy contact it can find.  If it reaches that location without finding a new target, it self-destructs. 

Could I, to avoid wasting missiles, put a tiny, tiny sensor onboard, too small to be useful for much if the enemy's not absurdly tightly grouped, just to keep the missiles from self-destructing while the fire control finds another firing solution and then directs the in-flight missiles toward it? Another way to ask the question: once a missile's own sensors take over, will it take direction from an FC ever again?

If I could do this, could I do it with passive sensors, or do they need to be active?
 

Offline TheBawkHawk

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 12:19:54 AM »
1) As far as I can tell, it doesn't affect anything. I don't use CIWS often, so perhaps someone with more experience would know for certain.

2) Yes, you can put a small sensor on it to have the missile re-target instead of blowing up. You used to be able to re-direct missiles in flight, but that was removed because it was ever-so-slightly completely ridiculous. Once a missile is launched, it will not be able to track any new targets aside from those that it detects on it's own, and only after its original target is destroyed (or removed in the case of waypoints).
 

Offline Jovus

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 12:25:42 AM »
Thanks!

For 2), that makes sense, and is what I suspected, but it never hurts to try and be clever.  (OK, it often hurts, but not in this case. )
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 03:00:52 AM »
I would suggest that increasing turret tracking speed isn't having an effect due to the fact it is already higher than your fire control speed.  The system uses the lowest of the numbers.  So for example when the turret tracking speed is 12K km/s but the fire control only has 8K km/s tracking speed then 8k km/s is used.   So you need to up your fire control speed to be greater than your turret tracking speed before an increase in turret tracking speed will show up.

I don't use CIWS so I can't be certain this is so but it is the only thing that makes sense knowing what I do about building point defence installations for the NCN.

EDIT:  the concept of "really really tiny" sensors also won't work in practical terms.  The Sensors need a ranger greater than 5*(expected_target_speed) to be effective.  They have to detect the target after the target moves.  So if they have "really really tiny" sensors they will loose sight of the target before they can begin tracking them down.  Active and passive sensors work for this task.  At higher tech levels it is likely you could produce CMs with active onboard sensors that would switch over to the next salvo.  I've had my missiles onboard sensors (passive IR) detect enemy missiles when the two groups of missiles passed through each other.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:26:49 AM by Paul M »
 

Offline Jovus

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 11:31:21 AM »
Quote from: Paul M link=topic=9643. msg103861#msg103861 date=1502438452
EDIT:  the concept of "really really tiny" sensors also won't work in practical terms.   The Sensors need a ranger greater than 5*(expected_target_speed) to be effective.   They have to detect the target after the target moves.   So if they have "really really tiny" sensors they will loose sight of the target before they can begin tracking them down.   Active and passive sensors work for this task.   At higher tech levels it is likely you could produce CMs with active onboard sensors that would switch over to the next salvo.   I've had my missiles onboard sensors (passive IR) detect enemy missiles when the two groups of missiles passed through each other.

The idea for those sensors wasn't to have the missile home on the target; the idea was to keep them from self-destructing while the FC finds a solution on another target and then guides the in-flight missiles toward it.

But I understand that probably won't work.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 05:09:02 PM »
Some parts (e.g. sensor strength) of CIWS design only affect the size. The size may not change each time you research a better part, though,  because of rounding errors.
 

Offline Jovus

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Re: Newbie questions: box launchers and PDCs
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 09:15:58 PM »
Shoving this in here because I don't want to clutter up the forums with my ignorance.

Can I put box launchers on PDCs? If I put box launchers on a PDC on a colony with maintenance facilities, will those facilities reload my box launchers? If so, am I correct that the reload speed would be 5 days, because that's the maintenance tick length?
 

Offline Jovus

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Re: Fleet Organization, automatic orders, et cetera
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 11:57:56 PM »
I've spent the time, and I think I'm comfortable with the Naval Organization tab and with the operation of Task Forces.   I have a lot more to learn, but I think I have the basics down. 

However, the whole reason I started to do this hasn't panned out: I'd like to split task groups and automatically set up default orders for them. 

For example, I have four jump scout groups (that I've set up under the Exploration Corps Task Force) - branches Alpha, Beta, Charlie, and Delta.   They each have - in separate geosurvey, gravsurvey, and logi branches - two geosurvey ships, one gravsurvey ship, and one jump tender/supply ship/tanker

I know about 'transit and divide fleet', but what I'd like to do is be able to use that order (or something similar) and already have my default and conditional orders properly set up on the sub-task-groups created, instead of having to go through each by hand every time I jump into a new system. 

Further questions! I've noticed that with the 'picket' order, if you're picketing jump points, the 'orbit distance' section in the TG window is greyed out.   Makes sense; it's not a body you can orbit.   However, is there any way to set a desired distance from a jump point? I don't want to be right on top of it with these missile ships when the enemy beam ships pop in at 50k.  .  . 

Task force training.   What does it do? Is it just a way to increase the crew training rating based on the crew training ratings of the staff officers of the task force? Or does it mean something else; e.  g.   coordinated fleet exercises, formation, or whatever? Further, is there any way to cancel task force training once you've begun?

Finally, my task force training button seems to have disappeared after my Naval Organization .  .  .   re-organization.   I made sure that my new Task Force has a commander under the staff officers portion of the Commanders window, but the game hasn't auto-assigned any underlings for him - is this why? Specifically, he doesn't have an Operations attache yet.   Which leads to my next question. 

Why hasn't the game auto-assigned any staff officers for this command yet? I've checked; there are enough unassigned personnel cooling their heels in the fleet officers' mess, and I have checked the automated assignments tickbox.   Is it because I've set tour length to 60 months and it just hasn't ticked over yet, or might I need to do something more? I've advanced time by 2 days. 

Edit to add, for posterity: figured out what was wrong with my commander auto-assignments.   The commander assignments tick every 5 days, like production.  This is also what was wrong with my Task Force Training.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:05:51 AM by Jovus »
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 06:36:48 AM »
Task Force Training is a mission that increases the level of task force coordination a ship has.  This level (0 to 100) decreases the time it takes for a ship in combat to accept and start acting on new orders.  This means any order given in combat will have the most delay at 0 and the least delay at 100.  I would not recommend sending ships into combat with a training level below 50 if you can avoid it.  I usually train my ships to 100.  I can't say if a number like 80 or 90 is "good enough" since it is very hard to sort out what effect it has, but one ship with around 79 was consistantly slower off the mark in a battle compared to ships with 100 (I think it was 10 s slower getting ready to fire).

I don't do that automatic splitting, as I could find no way to specify which ships ended up where but I believe you can do it "semi-automatically" depending on how you set up your naval organization, and I think there is a tutorial of carrier use in the list above that says how to do it.  I don't know that you can automate conditional and default orders.  Unless it automatically assigns them from the main body to the split off ones.  Given how dangerous survey is, I'd think you would not want an automatic process anyway.

I don't know why your task force training button might vanish.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 11:45:28 AM »
Jovus:

Once you fire your missiles, they are no longer connected to your FC.  You have no control over them.  If your missiles have sensors, they will home in on a new target assuming they can detect one.  You can't direct them towards a new target, that's up to them.

The reload rate for box launchers is listed on the design screen when you designed it.  Maintenance Facility reloads are much slower than hangar reloads, but they aren't a full construction cycle.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 09:41:29 AM »
When you split an existing TG, the new TGs will have the same default and conditional orders as the original TG had.

It is a good idea to put small sensors on your missiles so that when their target is destroyed, they will re-target another ship in the same enemy TG. For that, the range can be tiny since it's obviously the same location.

Note that TF training is per ship, not per TG. So ships in a TG can have different TF training levels. The name is a little misleading as it's more about the training level of the individual ship's crew, not the task force or task group. Removing or adding ships to that TG does not affect the existing TF training levels of other ships in that TG. You can cancel training by pressing the stop training button in the second tab for TGs.
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 11:15:20 AM »
1) Tracking speed affects the chances of hitting missiles.

2.1) You can put tiny sensors on missiles to keep them from self destructing. However, it is usually better to put a "good sized" sensor in the missile instead of just a "tiny one".

2.2) Once you launch a missile, whether they have sensors or not, they will not listen to the FC again except if you send the "self destruct" order to them.

2.3) They need to be active sensors to re-lock onto a target and home in. Passive sensors can be used in missiles with a sub-munition to launch an active sensor equipped sub-munition at the target.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 01:49:06 AM »
2.3) They need to be active sensors to re-lock onto a target and home in. Passive sensors can be used in missiles with a sub-munition to launch an active sensor equipped sub-munition at the target.
Does the sub-munition always look around for new targets with active sensors when it is fired or does it primarily keep going at the target its mother-munition was aimed at with its passive sensors?
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Newbie questions: CIWS and missile sensors
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 03:42:54 PM »
Does the sub-munition always look around for new targets with active sensors when it is fired or does it primarily keep going at the target its mother-munition was aimed at with its passive sensors?
The sub-munition will fly towards an invisible waypoint placed on where the passive contact that the main body saw was when it fired, then it will home in once it acquires its own active lock.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

 

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