Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: SevenOfCarina on April 02, 2018, 06:42:23 AM
-
Hello! I'm a newbie Aurora player, and I'm absolutely loving the game so far. This is my first time on these boards, so I apologize in advance if I'm violating some unspoken rule, but with that being said, I'd like to request some help - the United Earth Confederacy is constructing a fleet, and, err, we don't know quite how well it'll fare in combat. We've been quite isolationist so far - we've not significantly expanded beyond Solsys, which we've heavily fortified, and all we've been doing is research, research, and more research. However, the admiralty figures we'll have to expand eventually, so they had our engineers draft some preliminary designs to ensure we have the force projection capabilities when the time comes.
EDIT : The fleet has been revised - the below information is obsolete. The updated designs are lower down in the thread.
The fleet will consist of eight mainline warships and four auxiliary vessels, for a total of twelve, plus four strikecraft, which will be divided into a mainline fleet of six vessels and an auxiliary fleet of six vessels. The fleet speed has been standardized at 10,000 km/s to ensure quick response and force concentration in the event of an attack in our territory. Our doctrine emphasizes ranged warfare and a significant speed advantage to execute lightning-fast strikes deep in enemy volumes. To that end, fleet deployment times are very short - a mere four months, which should be sufficient to burn through the tanks twice over.
Jump capabilities and missile-detection sensors will be provided by the Prophetic Ingress class Jump Cruiser, of which we will build two - one to shift the mainline fleet, and another to accompany the auxiliary fleet.
Prophetic Ingress class Jump Cruiser 8 000 tons 267 Crew 2549.8 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 1200
10000 km/s JR 6-750 Armour 4-35 Shields 40-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 32 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.42 Years MSP 2311 AFR 44% IFR 0.6% 1YR 132 5YR 1979 Max Repair 864 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Spare Berths 0
J8000(6-750) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 8000 tons Distance 750k km Squadron Size 6
1600 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1) Power 1600 Fuel Use 64.76% Signature 1600 Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 700 000 Litres Range 24.3 billion km (28 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (10) Total Fuel Cost 160 Litres per hour (3 840 per day)
Active Search Sensor MR155-R1 (1) GPS 864 Range 155.5m km MCR 16.9m km Resolution 1
ECM 20
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Long-range sensor capabilities and area surveillance will be handled by the Reticent Witness class Surveillance Cruiser, which mounts both resolution 10 and resolution 100 active sensors. One will be built to accompany the mainline fleet.
Reticent Witness class Surveillance Cruiser 8 000 tons 267 Crew 3341.8 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 1200
10000 km/s Armour 4-35 Shields 40-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 32 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.86 Years MSP 3263 AFR 40% IFR 0.6% 1YR 162 5YR 2425 Max Repair 864 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Spare Berths 3
1600 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1) Power 1600 Fuel Use 64.76% Signature 1600 Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 700 000 Litres Range 24.3 billion km (28 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (10) Total Fuel Cost 160 Litres per hour (3 840 per day)
Active Search Sensor MR491-R10 (1) GPS 8640 Range 491.8m km Resolution 10
Active Search Sensor MR1555-R100 (1) GPS 86400 Range 1 555.2m km Resolution 100
ECM 20
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Primary offensive capabilities will be provided by the Pale Liberation class Missile Cruiser, each of which can throw 20-missile salvos at fighter-sized targets nearly 500 million kilometers distant, and has sufficient magazine depth to sustain that fire. Two will be built. The missile of choice is the Demure ASM, which is a two stage design - the first stage provides 500 million kilometers of range at 24000 km/s, while the second stage ignites at 16 million kilometers, pushes 60,000 km/s, carries a strength-4 warhead, mounts active sensors capable of detecting a resolution 10 target at 10,000 km, and is agile enough to accurately hit a craft moving at 12,500 km/s.
Pale Liberation class Missile Cruiser 8 000 tons 207 Crew 2185 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 1200
10000 km/s Armour 4-35 Shields 40-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 26.4
Maint Life 5.3 Years MSP 1707 AFR 51% IFR 0.7% 1YR 101 5YR 1522 Max Repair 800 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Spare Berths 4
Magazine 440
1600 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1) Power 1600 Fuel Use 64.76% Signature 1600 Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 700 000 Litres Range 24.3 billion km (28 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (10) Total Fuel Cost 160 Litres per hour (3 840 per day)
Size 4 Missile Launcher (33% Reduction) (20) Missile Size 4 Rate of Fire 400
Missile Fire Control FC491-R10 (1) Range 491.8m km Resolution 10
Demure ASM (110) Speed: 24 000 km/s End: 374.6m Range: 555.4m km WH: 0 Size: 4 TH: 80/48/24
Compact ECCM-2 (1) ECM 20
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Primary defensive capabilities will be provided by the Mirthless Tribulation class Area Defense Cruiser, each of which will carry 256 Sonance AMMs, which have a range of 16. 9 million kilometers and an accuracy of 40% against targets moving at 60,000 km/s. Sufficient launchers have been provided to ensure the magazines can be emptied before a single salvo of equal-tech missiles can cross active sensor range. Each vessel will also mount a single Triple Gauss Cannon Turret to mop up surviving missiles, as well as to ensure that some point-defense capability is retained once missile stores have been exhausted. Two will be built.
Mirthless Tribulation class Area Defence Cruiser 8 000 tons 243 Crew 2492.52 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 1200
10000 km/s Armour 4-35 Shields 40-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 27.2
Maint Life 5.28 Years MSP 1967 AFR 50% IFR 0.7% 1YR 118 5YR 1768 Max Repair 800 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Spare Berths 2
Magazine 256
1600 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1) Power 1600 Fuel Use 64.76% Signature 1600 Exp 16%
Fuel Capacity 700 000 Litres Range 24.3 billion km (28 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (10) Total Fuel Cost 160 Litres per hour (3 840 per day)
Triple Gauss Cannon R4-100 Turret (1x12) Range 40 000km TS: 25000 km/s Power 0-0 RM 4 ROF 5 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 96-25000 (1) Max Range: 192 000 km TS: 25000 km/s 95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Size 1 Missile Launcher (4) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC155-R1 (1) Range 155.5m km Resolution 1
Sonance AMM (256) Speed: 60 000 km/s End: 4.7m Range: 16.9m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 800/480/240
Compact ECCM-2 (1) ECM 20
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
To support deep-strike operations and enhance force-projection capabilities, two Temperance class Military Tankers and two Abstinence class Ammunition Transports will be built and attached to the auxiliary fleet. These auxiliaries should double the effective range of the fleet, will provide a full reload for the fleet's magazines, and will also provide some additional maintenance supplies.
Temperance class Military Tanker 8 000 tons 132 Crew 1641.8 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 0
10000 km/s Armour 2-35 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 8 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.38 Years MSP 1142 AFR 57% IFR 0.8% 1YR 66 5YR 990 Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Spare Berths 0
800 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 800 Fuel Use 24% Signature 800 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 3 000 000 Litres Range 281.3 billion km (325 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Abstinence class Ammunition Transport 8 000 tons 165 Crew 1512.4 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 0
10000 km/s Armour 4-35 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.26 Years MSP 1276 AFR 47% IFR 0.7% 1YR 77 5YR 1155 Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Spare Berths 1
Magazine 696
800 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 800 Fuel Use 24% Signature 800 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 550 000 Litres Range 51.6 billion km (59 days at full power)
Sonance AMM (256) Speed: 60 000 km/s End: 4.7m Range: 16.9m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 800/480/240
Demure ASM (110) Speed: 24 000 km/s End: 374.6m Range: 555.4m km WH: 0 Size: 4 TH: 80/48/24
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Additionally, a single Sycophant Oath class Escort Carrier will also be built to accompany the auxiliary fleet, with the primary aim of providing a degree of flexibility, and to ensure that the auxiliary fleet will not be left defenseless. The carrier's strike group will consist of four laser-armed Relentless Pursuit class Fast Attack Craft, which should prove sufficient to engage enemy fighters at range and to provide an alternative to missiles to finish-off disabled warships .
Sycophant Oath class Escort Carrier 8 000 tons 172 Crew 1458.8 BP TCS 160 TH 1600 EM 0
10000 km/s Armour 2-35 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 11 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.34 Years MSP 1220 AFR 47% IFR 0.7% 1YR 72 5YR 1073 Max Repair 400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 4 months Flight Crew Berths 48
Hangar Deck Capacity 2000 tons
800 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 800 Fuel Use 24% Signature 800 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 670 000 Litres Range 62.8 billion km (72 days at full power)
Strike Group
4x Relentless Pursuit Fast Attack Craft Speed: 20000 km/s Size: 10
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Relentless Pursuit class Fast Attack Craft 500 tons 12 Crew 291.8 BP TCS 10 TH 200 EM 0
20000 km/s Armour 2-5 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 2
Maint Life 2.39 Years MSP 36 AFR 20% IFR 0.3% 1YR 9 5YR 130 Max Repair 108 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.2 months Spare Berths 5
200 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1) Power 200 Fuel Use 379.47% Signature 200 Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 60 000 Litres Range 5.7 billion km (3 days at full power)
18cm C0.3 Soft X-ray Laser (1) Range 288 000km TS: 20000 km/s Power 8-0.3 RM 6 ROF 135 8 8 8 8 8 8 6 6 5 4
Fire Control S01.5 144-5000 (FTR) (1) Max Range: 288 000 km TS: 20000 km/s 97 93 90 86 83 79 76 72 69 65
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (1) Total Power Output 0.8 Armour 0 Exp 5%
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
So where and how badly have I screwed up? Is there an easily exploitable weakness that'll let this fleet be murdered by another that's a tenth of the cost? ;D
EDIT : Oh, and another question - given the same tech level, and approximately the same resources [~30,000 BP], how would you best counter this fleet? Swarms of strikecraft? Stealthed Destroyers?
-
Quick Review
Demure ASM (110) Speed: 24 000 km/s End: 374.6m Range: 555.4m km WH: 0 Size: 4 TH: 80/48/24
Your Demure ASM is listed as 0 warhead. At 24,000 km/s it would have a difficult time getting hits against ships similar to yours and be susceptible to AMM and beam fire.
Your auxiliary fleet has no missile defense, although the jump cruiser does at least have a missile detection sensor so they will have 5-10 minutes warning before they are destroyed. The fighters have a 135 second recharge time limiting the ability to intercept missiles.
-
The missile of choice is the Demure ASM, which is a two stage design - the first stage provides 500 million kilometers of range at 24,000 km/s, while the second stage ignites at 16 million kilometers, pushes 60,000 km/s, carries a strength-4 warhead, mounts active sensors capable of detecting a resolution 10 target at 10,000 km, and is agile enough to accurately hit a craft moving at 12,500 km/s.
Four Sonance AMMs are needed per Demure ASM terminal stage to get the chance of a complete miss down to a reasonable 12. 96%. I'm hoping that NPR/spoiler missiles will be sufficiently bad that I can get away with using two AMMs per missile.
As for your other point, I'll see if I can repurpose one of the beam-defence satellite designs I keep around for defending Earth. They have insane tracking speed [~75,000 km/s], but are unfortunately stationary, so I'll see what I can do.
EDIT : I had to downgrade the laser system and the Beam Fire Control, but I managed to squeeze in a 2 HS boosted propulsion plant. It's essentially a new design, though it still retains the maintenance lifetime of the old one.
Pervasive Itch class Fast Attack Craft 500 tons 5 Crew 390. 3 BP TCS 10 TH 100 EM 0
10000 km/s Armour 1-5 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 0 PPV 3. 87
Maint Life 5. 85 Years MSP 122 AFR 8% IFR 0. 1% 1YR 6 5YR 91 Max Repair 270 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0. 1 months Spare Berths 3
100 EP Internal Fusion Drive (1) Power 100 Fuel Use 387. 38% Signature 100 Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres Range 0. 5 billion km (12 hours at full power)
Single 10cm C1. 5 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (1x1) Range 180 000km TS: 75000 km/s Power 3-2 RM 6 ROF 10 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 1
Fire Control S03 96-18750 (FTR) (1) Max Range: 192 000 km TS: 75000 km/s 95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (2) Total Power Output 1. 6 Armour 0 Exp 5%
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
95% accuracy against equal-tech AMMs. Will this do?
-
Hey,
after a quick look over your designs there are a few things that come to mind:
1) Your weaponry seems ok to me, they look functional and might penetrate PD fire, though a ROF of 400sec on your ASM seems high to me.
2) Your maint life is set to ~5+ Years on your ships, that seems awfully high with a 4 months deployment time.
3) You could take away some maint life for extra armor (2 on tanker and carrier seems low for important ships)
4) I always get scared with military ships that have one big engine. If it gets hit, you are screwed. I always devide engine power over 2(sometimes more) engines (yes, less fuel efficiency, but the first time one gets destroyed in combat you will be happy for that sacrifice).
5) You might want to consider HS 1~5 Backup Active sonsors on your offensive ships, in case your big sensors are taken out. Again a sacrifice for the worst case, but stuff like that can happen.
That's about all i can see "wrong" with this.
To counter this i would likeley try to take advantage of the 400sec reload on your launchers, design PD for short burst volume and decide where to go from there (wait out empty mags with my own missles or close in with beams, 400sec can be a LONG time in space battle).
-
Than you! :D
As for your issues :
1) The 400 second reload rate is deliberate. Consider an attack by a swarm of missile-armed FACs capable of 20,000 km/s. This swarm will be detected at ~490 million kilometers, but to ensure that I don't lose missiles I'll probably only start firing at ~400 million kilometers. Since my ships move at 10,000 km/s, that is a relative velocity of 10,000 km/s. If I use 0. 25 launchers instead of 0. 33 launchers, in the 2000 seconds it'll take for my launchers to reload, the swarm will advance 20 million kilometers, and that is ignoring firing delays. Effectively, I won't be able to toss all eleven missile salvos before an FAC swarm closes to missile range and shreds me. There isn't any merit to increasing salvo size either, since my AMM ships can still fire at every missile I can launch even if I launch them all at once. At least, that's my reasoning, is it flawed? :P
2) These ships are meant to sit at small, growing colonies at opposite ends of my empire. Deployment times shouldn't be an issue, it's highly unlikely a single strike will take more than four months. The excessive maintenance life is for two reasons - one, there's no way in hell I'll be able to drag maintenance facilities of the size needed to a backwater colony, and two, I need the MSP to ensure I can repair the overboosted propulsion plant even in the unlikely event that it is damaged.
3) I believe points 3, 4, and 5 may be ameliorated if I expand on my doctrine.
With this particular fleet, the modus operandi is to concentrate all twelve ships into a single gigantic blob and keep them together unless and until I detect hostile forces on my sensors. At that point, the two tankers, the two transports, and the escort carrier retreat to a position ~100 million kilometers behind the mainline fleet to ensure they are not targeted by enemy missiles, though I may opt to retain them if the opponent has primarily beam combatants. My sensor envelope stretches to 1. 5 billion kilometers - a flanking action is highly unlikely and I will determine engagement range at all times. Every vessel, at all points, will remain within sensor range of both the Prophetic Ingress class, and the Reticent Witness class vessels. There are two Prophetic Ingress class vessels - detection will not be compromised even in the unlikely event that I lose one. The resolution 1 sensors have a range of 150 million kilometers - a higher resolution backup of reasonable size is not going to outrange them. My fleet depends heavily on active defenses and shields - if I start taking armor damage, then I'm doing something wrong. ;D
TL;DR : The doctrine is speed, range, and active defense.
-
Than you! :D
As for your issues :
1) The 400 second reload rate is deliberate. Consider an attack by a swarm of missile-armed FACs capable of 20,000 km/s. This swarm will be detected at ~490 million kilometers, but to ensure that I don't lose missiles I'll probably only start firing at ~400 million kilometers. Since my ships move at 10,000 km/s, that is a relative velocity of 10,000 km/s. If I use 0. 25 launchers instead of 0. 33 launchers, in the 2000 seconds it'll take for my launchers to reload, the swarm will advance 20 million kilometers, and that is ignoring firing delays. Effectively, I won't be able to toss all eleven missile salvos before an FAC swarm closes to missile range and shreds me. There isn't any merit to increasing salvo size either, since my AMM ships can still fire at every missile I can launch even if I launch them all at once. At least, that's my reasoning, is it flawed? :P
Salvo size is usually not a problem with long range AMM point defense, instead you should think more about missiles per minute. Also, you get multiple chances to engage enemy missiles. As soon as your missiles hit, your ships will send the adequate amount of missiles to face any surviving missiles, wich is to say that at 18 million Km 30-40% chance means you can often sit at 1vs1 pd and have zero to no bleedtrhough.
To see how likely a missile is to punch through you defenses what you need is some probability calculus. If you assume a single missile salvo gets through all your defenses, and all missiles are properly engaged you can see that the density of engagements gets exponentially bigger, because it takes a long-ass time to travel 18 million km and a short-ass time to travel 1 millon km. If you know the enemy missile speed (and your missile speed) you can try to calculate how many engagement chances you have. Lets say you get 7 engagement chances.
Lets say you have a 20% hit chance, against a missile with no armour. We are going 1 vs 1. You might be thinking right now, that I am nuts. This is never going to work. The enemy has a 80% of geting through. Well... against a single engagement yes... agains 7? Not so sure. So you see, to get through all engagements, you need to get through the first AND the second AND the third and etc. And in probability, AND means you multiply. Since 80% is just a sexy way of saying 80/100 that means if we do math teacher witchcraft and reduce this to a "simple" equation, you get that X*=80/100 x 80/100 x 80/100 x 80/100 x 80/100 x 80/100 x 80/100
*(X is the chance a random enemy missile is going to go through all your defenses unscathed)
80/100 is 0.8 so lets use that on the calculator.
You get that the chance an enemy missile will get through all 7 engagements is about 20%. I say thats still enough to wreck a ship so lets say you do 2 vs 1 pd. How do you calculate that? Well I am not a math person and I dont want to go find a completely acjrate model so I assume the chance will be about the same as if you double the amount of engagements so 14 engagements. Thats a 4% chance you'll get hit by an enemy missile. The followers of whatever launch 100 missiles at your face and your point blank defenses and shields gotta do with about 4. Very reasonable.
Whats that gotta do with the reduced size on my launchers? You ask. Well with that reload time, you will always have a 400 s between your engagement chances, which means that at a certain point, you stop scaling exponentially and start scaling linearly, geting less chances to engage the enemy. So instead of geting say 7 engagement chances you would be geting 5, 4 engagement chances. Meaning you would need to use 3 vs 1 and 4 vs 1 much more frequently, geting more overkill and wasting missiles. I will try calculating your number of engagements against some decent same tech-level missiles using a 5 second reload launcher to see how crazy it gets and then I'll post it here
-
Not to sound condescending here, but I am capable of basic math. You're basically explaining the rationale behind my various design choices, and I'm not sure why? ???
-
Not to sound condescending here, but I am capable of basic math. You're basically explaining the rationale behind my various design choices, and I'm not sure why? ???
im trying to sound smart god dang it
-
Than you! :D
As for your issues :
1) The 400 second reload rate is deliberate. Consider an attack by a swarm of missile-armed FACs capable of 20,000 km/s. This swarm will be detected at ~490 million kilometers, but to ensure that I don't lose missiles I'll probably only start firing at ~400 million kilometers. Since my ships move at 10,000 km/s, that is a relative velocity of 10,000 km/s. If I use 0. 25 launchers instead of 0. 33 launchers, in the 2000 seconds it'll take for my launchers to reload, the swarm will advance 20 million kilometers, and that is ignoring firing delays. Effectively, I won't be able to toss all eleven missile salvos before an FAC swarm closes to missile range and shreds me. There isn't any merit to increasing salvo size either, since my AMM ships can still fire at every missile I can launch even if I launch them all at once. At least, that's my reasoning, is it flawed? :P
Not sure, as I have not read the entire thread... But it seems like you are not taking into account enemy ECM. This will degrade your detection range.
-
ASM(A)-6S9D (252) Speed: 28 000 km/s End: 20.6m Range: 34.6m km WH: 9 Size: 6 TH: 121/72/36 this is the missile you are facing, it was designed by 83Athom using tech given by the AI. its a bit faster than your demure's first stage, not sure how your second stage is so cant use that to calculate.
since his missile is 28000km/s fast, the relative speed between your missiles is 88000 km/s. your missile goes at 60000km/s so you have 70% of the relative speed, preserving 70% of the distance. the initial engagement begins at roughly 16 million kilometers so lets go from there
1°engagement= 16000k (km)
2°engagement= 1° engagement x 0.7
n°engagement= n-1°engagement x 0.7
the last engagement is at point blank, so its about the distance the enemy missile translates in a 5 s increment, wich in this case is about 150k km
so lets see
1° engagement= 16000k(can fire 32 salvos til next engagement)
2° engagement= 11200k(can fire 22 salvos til next engagement)
3° engagement= 7840k(can fire 15 salvos til next engagement)
4° engagement= 5488k(can fire 10 salvos til next engagement)
5° engagement= 3841k(can fire 7 salvos til next engagement)
6° engagement= 2689k(can fire 5 salvos til next engagement)
7° engagement= 1882k(can fire 3 salvos til next engagement)
8° engagement= 1317k(can fire 2 salvos til next engagement)
9° engagement= 922k(can fire 1 salvos til next engagement)
10° engagement= 645k(can fire 1 salvos til next engagement)
11° engagement= 451k(can fire 1 salvos til next engagement)
12° engagement= 316k(can fire 1 salvos til next engagement)
13° engagement= actually 150k because the enemy missile goes 150k every 5 seconds (last desperate salvo)
lets say thats the last one.
so you get 13 engagements. I say that with your gauss pd you should be able to deal with some 7 missiles at least, I know it from experiene and am not willing to calculate it right now.
if we assume you have infinite tubes, you can fire at all missiles all times, and the previous model will be valid for all engagements. but you dont have infinite tubes. you get 4 per ship.
ps. I was kinda distrated and I thought it was your point defense that was rocking a 400 second reload and was wondering what the hell was happening, now I see whats going on and feel very awkward but im kinda having fun so might as well post it
-
am I ruining this post? I get the feeling I am ruining this post. should I continue and try seeing how many missiles we would need to destroy a single ship in one salvo?
-
am I ruining this post? I get the feeling I am ruining this post. should I continue and try seeing how many missiles we would need to destroy a single ship in one salvo?
You're not ruining this thread. Your assistance is appreciated. Go ahead.
For everyone else, acting on your suggestions, I've enacted extensive modifications, the most significant of which I've listed here :
- All vessels have been expanded to 10,000 tons to make room for modifications.
- The propulsion plant has been enlarged, and split in two, with the boost reduced to 1. 25x.
- Shield strength has been increased to 60 on all vessels.
- Maintenance life has been reduced to ~2 years for all vessels.
- Backup sensors have been attached to the Guided Missile Cruiser and Missile Defense Cruiser.
- The res-100 sensor on the Surveillance Cruiser has been enlarged.
- Magazines have been expanded on all vessels.
- The Demure ASM has been replaced by the Quiescence ASM, which is more capable, but larger.
- The 0. 33 size-4 launchers have been replaced by 0. 25 size-5 launchers in the Guided Missile Cruiser.
- Two extra size-1 launchers have been added to the Missile Defense Cruiser.
- The tanker design has been significantly revised.
Since there has been significant confusion regarding the missiles I'm using, I've listed them here :
Sonance Anti-Missile Missile
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 40
Speed: 60000 km/s Engine Endurance: 5 minutes Range: 16.9m km
Cost Per Missile: 1.59
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 2400% 3k km/s 800% 5k km/s 480% 10k km/s 240%
Materials Required: 0.25x Tritanium 1.34x Gallicite Fuel x200
Quiescence Anti-Ship Missile
Missile Size: 5 MSP (0.25 HS) Warhead: 0 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 20000 km/s Engine Endurance: 10.1 hours Range: 730.6m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.7764
Second Stage: Quiescence Terminal Stage x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 16 000 000 km
Overall Endurance: 10 hours Overall Range: 752.0m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 200% 3k km/s 60% 5k km/s 40% 10k km/s 20%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.0108x Boronide 0.0176x Uridium 3.748x Gallicite Fuel x2143
Quiescence Terminal Stage
Missile Size: 2.25 MSP (0.1125 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 16
Speed: 80000 km/s Engine Endurance: 4 minutes Range: 21.4m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.0176 Sensitivity Modifier: 180%
Resolution: 10 Maximum Range vs 500 ton object (or larger): 10 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 3.5264
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1280% 3k km/s 416% 5k km/s 256% 10k km/s 128%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.0108x Boronide 0.0176x Uridium 2.498x Gallicite Fuel x268
And here's the revised fleet :
1 X Prophetic Ingress class Area Surveillance Cruiser
Prophetic Ingress class Area Surveillance Cruiser 10 000 tons 286 Crew 2819.6 BP TCS 200 TH 2000 EM 1800
10000 km/s JR 6-1000 Armour 4-41 Shields 60-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 3.45 Years MSP 1780 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 228 5YR 3415 Max Repair 864 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 0
J10000(6-1000) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 10000 tons Distance 1000k km Squadron Size 6
1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 1000 Fuel Use 41.93% Signature 1000 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 21.5 billion km (24 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (15) Total Fuel Cost 240 Litres per hour (5 760 per day)
Active Search Sensor MR155-R1 (1) GPS 864 Range 155.5m km MCR 16.9m km Resolution 1
ECM 20
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
1 X Reticent Witness class Area Surveillance Cruiser
Reticent Witness class Area Surveillance Cruiser 10 000 tons 286 Crew 3843.6 BP TCS 200 TH 2000 EM 1800
10000 km/s Armour 4-41 Shields 60-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 3.28 Years MSP 2426 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 342 5YR 5123 Max Repair 1152 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 0
1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 1000 Fuel Use 41.93% Signature 1000 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 21.5 billion km (24 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (15) Total Fuel Cost 240 Litres per hour (5 760 per day)
Active Search Sensor MR491-R10 (1) GPS 8640 Range 491.8m km Resolution 10
Active Search Sensor MR2073-R100 (1) GPS 115200 Range 2 073.6m km Resolution 100
ECM 20
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
2 X Mirthless Tribulation class Missile Defence Cruiser
Mirthless Tribulation class Missile Defence Cruiser 10 000 tons 259 Crew 2776 BP TCS 200 TH 2000 EM 1800
10000 km/s Armour 4-41 Shields 60-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 6 PPV 10
Maint Life 2.41 Years MSP 1076 AFR 129% IFR 1.8% 1YR 255 5YR 3820 Max Repair 500 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 3
Magazine 550
1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 1000 Fuel Use 41.93% Signature 1000 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 21.5 billion km (24 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (15) Total Fuel Cost 240 Litres per hour (5 760 per day)
Size 1 Missile Launcher (10) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC155-R1 (2) Range 155.5m km Resolution 1
Sonance Anti-Missile Missile (550) Speed: 60 000 km/s End: 4.7m Range: 16.9m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 800/480/240
Active Search Sensor MR19-R1 (1) GPS 108 Range 19.4m km MCR 2.1m km Resolution 1
Compact ECCM-2 (2) ECM 20
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
2 X Pale Liberation class Guided Missile Cruiser
Pale Liberation class Guided Missile Cruiser 10 000 tons 247 Crew 2529.6 BP TCS 200 TH 2000 EM 1800
10000 km/s Armour 4-41 Shields 60-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 6 PPV 25
Maint Life 2.69 Years MSP 1075 AFR 117% IFR 1.6% 1YR 212 5YR 3178 Max Repair 500 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 1
Magazine 550
1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 1000 Fuel Use 41.93% Signature 1000 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 21.5 billion km (24 days at full power)
Theta R300/384 Shields (15) Total Fuel Cost 240 Litres per hour (5 760 per day)
Size 5 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (20) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 2500
Missile Fire Control FC491-R10 (1) Range 491.8m km Resolution 10
Quiescence Anti-Ship Missile (110) Speed: 20 000 km/s End: 608.8m Range: 746.6m km WH: 0 Size: 5 TH: 66/40/20
Active Search Sensor MR40-R10 (1) GPS 720 Range 41.0m km Resolution 10
Compact ECCM-2 (1) ECM 20
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
1 X Abdication class Fleet Replenishment Vessel
Abdication class Fleet Replenishment Vessel 10 000 tons 188 Crew 2082.6 BP TCS 200 TH 2000 EM 0
10000 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 4-41 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 8 PPV 0
Maint Life 2.81 Years MSP 1106 AFR 94% IFR 1.3% 1YR 204 5YR 3054 Max Repair 500 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 2
J10000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 10000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 1000 Fuel Use 41.93% Signature 1000 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 3 400 000 Litres Range 146.0 billion km (168 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
2 X Abstinence class Fleet Replenishment Vessel
Abstinence class Fleet Replenishment Vessel 10 000 tons 182 Crew 1943.2 BP TCS 200 TH 2000 EM 0
10000 km/s Armour 4-41 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 8 PPV 0
Maint Life 2.88 Years MSP 1069 AFR 90% IFR 1.3% 1YR 189 5YR 2841 Max Repair 500 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 1
Magazine 1100
1000 EP Internal Fusion Drive (2) Power 1000 Fuel Use 41.93% Signature 1000 Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 1 400 000 Litres Range 60.1 billion km (69 days at full power)
Sonance Anti-Missile Missile (550) Speed: 60 000 km/s End: 4.7m Range: 16.9m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 800/480/240
Quiescence Anti-Ship Missile (110) Speed: 20 000 km/s End: 608.8m Range: 746.6m km WH: 0 Size: 5 TH: 66/40/20
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Nine vessels in all, and yes, I've ditched the carrier. The auxiliaries will be relying on the mainline fleet's guns for protection.
But I've also run into a problem - I don't think my fleet's missiles can penetrate it's own anti-missile screen. Help? :P
-
But I've also run into a problem - I don't think my fleet's missiles can penetrate it's own anti-missile screen. Help? :P
Time to design new missiles then ;)
-
I'm not sure how I can go about improving my own missiles beyond what I've already done? :P
-
Maybe design a size 5 missile that does not have a second stage? Bigger warhead.
And the most obvious answer is "Increase your missile tech" :)
-
The problem with single-stage designs is that I can't get them faster than 40,000 km/s without taking significant range penalties, and at that point they're basically sitting ducks for the anti-missile missiles. And better tech doesn't help - my AMMs are gaining potency faster than my ASMs.
-
True. But are you shooting at your own ships?
The 40k speed might be way overkill for any opponents you meet in-game.
-
I have NPRs turned up to 400%, and this is in a conventional-start game with a 400 million starting population, so . . . . . ;D
-
Your missiles are crazy good, you get 85% hit chance.
-
Not even going to calculate that one, a single ship can easily take on at least 120 missiles
-
Are you referring to the ASMs or the AMMs?
-
Btw I was talking about the first one, the second one, if accompanied by a nice big collier can swaf about 850 missiles. So yeah I can see why you are having trouble.
Try exausting this defense, throw in heavily armoured missiles and the defenses should run out of missiles though.
I say if you get a nice supply of those missiles and you should be good to face about any missile onslaught the galaxy might throw at you.
Just keep a nice beam wall to catch any lucky bastards.
Also, 40000 km/s is already crazy good for your tech level, and unless the world has changed a lot in this game the AI sucks at point defense. Just dont get too cocky. Numbers can make a lot of diference
-
Are you referring to the ASMs or the AMMs?
It would take 850+ missiles to get through your PD ship, assuming you dont run out of missiles. I am talking about the weird 28000km/s missile though so it might get a bit less extreme against higher quality missiles
-
By overruning I mean properly overwhelming, you would still probably get some leakage
-
The main issue I'm encountering when I slow down the missiles is that I need to vastly increase the amount of space dedicated to agility to maintain accuracy. It's simply more efficient to go fast enough to not get hit than to be armored enough to not go down from a hit.
For perspective, a single Sonance AMM has a hit chance of 30% against the Quiescence Terminal Stage. Which is horrible. Even if I fire five AMMs, a sixth of the salvo will always get through.
Unfortunately, what does get through tends to splash ineffectually against the shields.
-
So I'm stuck in a strange conundrum - I need to run the AMM vessels dry before I can actually start killing things, for which I need more magazine space, but I need to overwhelm the shields at the same time, for which I'll need more launchers. ::)
-
So .... help? How do I kill this fleet without an overwhelming advantage in tonnage? ;D
-
What you need is big heavily armoured torpedoes. Things about size 20. Dont worry too much abou accuracy thats not their purpose. Make them mostly armour, and they dont need to be particularly fast. You have to exaust the defenses. Make them run out of missiles. Just go around lanching cheap missile soaker after cheap missile soaker until the enemy cannot maintain their fleet in your territory, bully them into diverting all ordinance production into missiles. This will start puting a strain on their gallicite and if you can endure their onslaughts of missiles, if you have good supply lines you should be able to slowly deny your enemy of minerals and win a long attrition war.
And maybie land one or two .missiles
-
By the way crazy fast missiles usually are a harder strain on your gallicite
-
But that strategy effectively fails if I'm fighting a human opponent, which is what I'm concerned about. A human would simply let the large armored missiles hit, and let the shields take the burden.
-
But that is on open battle. On a jump gate siege you would probably get wrecked by enemy beam ships
-
Not a problem. Venus has several hundred million Gallicite at 0.7 accessibility, and Tritanium at 1.0 accessibility.
-
All right it might take a couple thousand years but still
-
These are quick response fleets, meant for defense rather than offense, and the occasional deep strike raiding mission. I'm not conducting jumppoint assaults without dedicated vessels.
-
You said you were quite isolacionist so what I would do is try to lock all your sistems and leave you in a cage of railguns. Assuming we have populations of equal size, unless you can break through I should be able to grow faster since I can expand freely, and eventually try to snowball from there, but it would take a long time to do so.
-
Yeah, that would be doable, particularly if your species is more adaptable. I've set my humans' gravity tolerance to 0.8g-1.2g, which means I have literally no worlds in Solsys other than Earth with a colony cost of less than 3. And Earth is an irradiated hellhole.
-
big picture, i think, is that you've prepared to fight the last war. you're at the dawn of the Age Of Invincible AMMs and your ASMs give up *everything* for range.
A leaker or two isnt going to cut it, when you're only throwing 4 damage per missile. your missile cruiser can absorb its own broadside quite safely, and has a pretty good chance of running its evil twin clear out of ammo and living to tell the tale. warning.
one fewer AMM ship, one more ASM ship, use i dunno, size 3 single stage, 60k missiles; otherwise clone your fleet. i think that counters your fleet pretty hard. i think its also the period where fighters have basically made real ships obsolete, but even if im right fabricating an example is too much work.
-
So, effectively, you're telling me to engage at point-blank with missiles. What if I abandon the two-stage concept, double the terminal stage to 5 MSP, and increase the warhead to strength-9, while retaining the 80,000 km/s speed? Would that work?
-
Okay, I have a design : the Excoriate Anti-Ship Missile
Missile Size: 3 MSP (0.15 HS) Warhead: 4 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 16
Speed: 80000 km/s Engine Endurance: 12 minutes Range: 57.5m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.0176 Sensitivity Modifier: 180%
Resolution: 10 Maximum Range vs 500 ton object (or larger): 10 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 4.3584
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1280% 3k km/s 416% 5k km/s 256% 10k km/s 128%
Materials Required: 1x Tritanium 0.0108x Boronide 0.0176x Uridium 3.33x Gallicite Fuel x790.5
Assuming equal magazine space, an AMM ship can throw three AMMs per ASM, so that's a kill chance of 65.7%, which means one in three missiles will make it through point-defense. Assuming I can double the number of launchers per ship, the fleet now throws 80 missiles per salvo, of which ~27 will penetrate, dealing 108 damage .... which might actually be enough to kill a ship in a salvo or two.
-
By the way beware of lagrange points, the enemy can use them to close to point blank
-
One thing you could do that would increase your broadside per ton is supplement your fleet with som missle frigates. Make them half the size or smaller, little armor, no shields, just an engine, a fire control, a small magizine and all the reduced size launchers you can stuff on the frigate. The ship relies on being the least visible element of the fleet for defense and since you have fewer bells and whistles, you will be able to place more missiles per ton. That is a strategy I use and the frigates can also provide colony support more easily. Good Luck
-
Well, I went that route and tried to build small 2000 ton Missile Attack Craft with the Excoriate ASM, but I ran into a major problem. Namely, I can't get useful salvo sizes without using box launchers, and if do use box launchers, I have nowhere near enough magazine space to overwhelm the point defence of my mainline fleet, even with very large swarms.
For about 29,000 BP (the cost of my fleet), I can build ~40 missile boats, each carrying 10 ASMs and 30 AMMs, for a total of 400 ASMs and 1200 AMMs. Unfortunately, I'll need to close to ~50 million kilometres to fire my missiles with the gunboats, so they need to be faster than my mainline fleet, which results in them turning into fuel-guzzling hogs with barely any range. So they're useless for anything other system defence. Even then they'll need to advance under a missile onslaught, and since my mainline fleet can carry 440 ASMs, about 200 ASMs will find their mark with the number of AMMs the missile boats have. Since the missile boats are so small, they have no shields and barely any internal HTK, so even two hundred missiles will kill half of them. At that point, the remaining craft have too few missiles to overwhelm point-defence, and what makes it through can wound maybe one ship. Then my warships will close to AMM range and slaughter the remaining missile craft.
So smaller missile boats don't work, because they're too fragile. I'll have to upgrade these to full size, short-range missile warships, but even then I won't get useful salvo size without box launchers, and using box launchers means I can't reload, which amplifies my magazine issue. So that doesn't work either. The only way I've successfully killed my fleet so far is by bringing along twice the number of ships.
Actually, since I need to build two fleets anyway for each expansion route, this might not be a problem. ;D
-
Instead of draining their AMM magazines, try overpowering their fire controls. Each fire control can only target one salvo at a time. So fire lots of salvos. This usually means lots of small ships with a handful of launchers each. Or big ships with a nearly as many FC's as launchers.
-
Instead of draining their AMM magazines, try overpowering their fire controls. Each fire control can only target one salvo at a time. So fire lots of salvos. This usually means lots of small ships with a handful of launchers each. Or big ships with a nearly as many FC's as launchers.
My AMM ships are built specifically to counter this. I have five full-size launchers per fire control, and I typically launch five missiles per missile. Each ship can launch 400 AMMs in the time it takes one ASM to cross sensor range, so each AMM ship can target 80 missiles. I don't think dragging along a hundred fire controls is worthwhile.
The only way through is either overwhelming salvo size, or overwhelming magazine space. Ideally, both are needed.
-
You could try the battle rider aproach, and put a big ship on acarrier. That ship wont need a lot in the ways of maintenance and range, and the carrier doesn't really need that much speed. You could very well send it at 14000 km/s and still have enough range for combat manouvers and enough firepower to be scary
-
If the defender relies on AMMs and has a fixed point they are defending, you can fire decoy missiles at a waypoint associated with that point. Fire missiles that cost 1/10 what an AMM does from 3 billion km away. It may be an exploit of the AI to do this, of course.
-
If the defender relies on AMMs and has a fixed point they are defending, you can fire decoy missiles at a waypoint associated with that point. Fire missiles that cost 1/10 what an AMM does from 3 billion km away. It may be an exploit of the AI to do this, of course.
but he is thinking more like pvp tatics, so you would need to mix in some real missiles to make things interesting.
-
As a non-combat related suggestion, you might consider increasing deployment times. My first generation of warships shared the 12-month intended deployments of your designs, but I increased it to 18 months in subsequent generations because my task groups weren't completing "task force training" before the crews became antsy, but the longer deployment-times proved beneficial of themselves. (I also use a very small, very slow fleet trainer---packs right into a carrier so I can go train afar afield, if need be---so my ships don't waste much fuel during training.)