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C# Aurora / Re: Collateral Damage
« Last post by Hazard on Today at 01:01:04 PM »
Keep in mind that the Second World War, one of the most vigorous wars ever fought with one of the highest per day casualty rates, killed on average 10 000 soldiers per day and twice that many civilians. Certainly, a part of that was deliberate action to commit genocide, but another sizable chunk was battles being fought in and around urban areas as well as the results of deprivation of food and other resources necessary to maintain the war effort.


And while modern day weapons are considerably more accurate than WW2 weapons, they are in many cases also more powerful, and thus more likely to cause collateral damage.
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The Corporate Federation / Re: Corporate Federation - Comments
« Last post by Garfunkel on Today at 12:43:29 PM »
Damn, those logs. We often just skip over the fate of hapless surveyors who get stranded in systems with spoilers. Probably for the best, since it's a pretty chilling thought to imagine yourself in their place.
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C# Aurora / Re: STO Operations
« Last post by Whitecold on Today at 12:31:17 PM »
The main question is, if CIWS works, why can't you use the other beam weapons like it. Why should you need to mount a laser in orbit for it to be able to intercept missiles, when the same laser works identical on ground against anything but missiles?
While I understand the need to keep everything working functionally the same across the board, and I do agree with that goal, making CIWS more useful just kills the need for purpose-built PD ships. And if ground units CIWS are as limited as ship CIWS, then they could only defend their own formation instead of the planet, which kinda defeats the purpose of having them in the first place, ie to protect the civilian population and ground-based facilities in addition to the military units.
I don't want to change anything on CIWS. What I would like to change is the functionality of STO weapons to make them work as PD. This would make ground force CIWS redundant, as you can simply build Gauss STOs, but then again CIWS is a fix to allow PD on civilian ships.
There is no such thing as civilian ground forces, so there is no special need for a civilian, purely defensive version. STO already include their own fire control and sensor, meaning even less need for a special integrated CIWS unit, instead of allowing turrets as STOs, because every unit is essentially an integrated weapon system already unlike ship mounted beams.
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C# Aurora / Re: Collateral Damage
« Last post by Garfunkel on Today at 12:27:52 PM »
I've always thought that collateral damage was too high in VB6 Aurora and would happily see it generally become slightly less in C# Aurora. One round of ground combat on Earth (5-days) can easily produce a million dead civilians if the armies are large enough, even without using weapons of mass destruction. That is just crazy. No human conflict has ever produced civilian casualties at such rates. Nuking big cities is of course an entirely different matter. I dunno about the math, but any change that reduces collateral damage from what it used to be gets my vote.

Note that I'm not advocating getting rid of collateral damage, or reducing it to something meaningless.

Also, Infrastructure as padding against collateral damage sounds interesting.
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C# Aurora / Re: STO Operations
« Last post by Garfunkel on Today at 12:16:22 PM »
With a missile PDC, you can manually target the ship you want to. With automatic targeting, it gets tricky.

Let's say automatic targeting picks a target at random. An attacker could use 20 1000 ton blocks of armor (or perhaps shields) and 1 30,000 ton battleship to bombard; the result is that 20/21 STO shots are wasted. If instead automated targeting picks the largest ship, then a fleet could have a single large armor brick and a bunch of smaller bombardment ships, and again avoid fire.

The solution Steve seemed to be proposing was that the defender could set their own targeting priorities, whether it was biggest ship, slowest ship, etc, but I really don't think there's a user friendly way to do this; it would either have to be a limited set of options (which could be gamed) or basically end up as a pseudo coding system.

Having STO weapons be something you can target but also have an autofire setting where they pick targets at random seems a good compromise.
Again, I don't think "gaming the system" is really a concern. Nothing stop a player currently from shooting 10000 cheap Size 1 missiles at an NPR planet, thereby exhausting all their AMMs. Or building one or two 10k ton shield/armour brick that just tanks everything the NPR PDCs can throw at it, preferably by leaping back and forth over maximum missile range. Any system can eventually be analysed and gamed. Going even further, the SM mode means that players can "cheat" as much as they want. The various game features and options should function in "good faith", ie assume that the player is playing "straight" or "legit", not on purpose trying to exploit stuff.

Thus an automatic system similar to PD/AMM where the player can, beforehand, select from 3-5 targeting options, would be IMHO quite sufficient. Like you select whether to use 1 or 5 AMMs per enemy missile, and the range for Area Defence beams, and whether PD is self-defence or TG defence. Similarly, STO could have the options for largest, smallest, fastest, slowest and if you have four different STOs on the planet, each could have a different priority if the player so chooses.

Thus STO ground units could use the same System Combat window as ships do and Steve only needs to add the options to the PD menu-bar/thingy, where the old options already exist.

The main question is, if CIWS works, why can't you use the other beam weapons like it. Why should you need to mount a laser in orbit for it to be able to intercept missiles, when the same laser works identical on ground against anything but missiles?
While I understand the need to keep everything working functionally the same across the board, and I do agree with that goal, making CIWS more useful just kills the need for purpose-built PD ships. And if ground units CIWS are as limited as ship CIWS, then they could only defend their own formation instead of the planet, which kinda defeats the purpose of having them in the first place, ie to protect the civilian population and ground-based facilities in addition to the military units.
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C# Aurora / Re: Collateral Damage
« Last post by DEEPenergy on Today at 11:37:28 AM »
Would this make infrastructure a good way of "padding" a colony against collateral damage? I think it would be interesting to have an installation that protects against collateral damage by appearing like an installation much larger than it is.  Something infrastructure sized that appears as research facility sized when it comes time to applying collateral damage, as a way to abstract fortifications or hardening of civilian infrastructure.
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C# Aurora / Re: Collateral Damage
« Last post by chrislocke2000 on Today at 10:58:51 AM »
Looks like a good start point. Now just really looking forwards to hearing about that first test campaign!
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C# Aurora / Re: Collateral Damage
« Last post by Steve Walmsley on Today at 10:53:00 AM »
Would it be possible to instead create a randomised list of all facilities on planet and assign damage from the top in descending order and according to HP every round of combat?

You'd refresh the list every construction pulse because you need to account for new construction anyway. I understand this can cause odd results like a 400 HP research facility eating all collateral damage during a construction pulse and just not breaking at lower tech levels, thereby not suffering any collateral facility damage during that construction pulse. On the other hand, the list refreshes every 5 days or so it's not likely to stay on the top of the list.

Currently, damage is randomly allocated for every shot, based on the weight of installation size. So a research facility is 20x more likely to be hit than a construction factory (but also 20x less likely to be damaged by the hit).
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This is really cool, I am following with great anticipation. I do hope that China's industrial lead doesn't make it to overpowered, but the growing alliance against them should counteract that for now.
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C# Aurora / Re: Collateral Damage
« Last post by Hazard on Today at 08:45:04 AM »
Would it be possible to instead create a randomised list of all facilities on planet and assign damage from the top in descending order and according to HP every round of combat?

You'd refresh the list every construction pulse because you need to account for new construction anyway. I understand this can cause odd results like a 400 HP research facility eating all collateral damage during a construction pulse and just not breaking at lower tech levels, thereby not suffering any collateral facility damage during that construction pulse. On the other hand, the list refreshes every 5 days or so it's not likely to stay on the top of the list.
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