Author Topic: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)  (Read 694 times)

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Offline the obelisk

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New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« on: May 24, 2018, 12:08:01 PM »
Splitting off from the Jump Gate thread.

A fourth option for balance would be that construction ships (or whatever they're to be called) would require more resources to build something than a shipyard would. That way you pay for your flexibility in mobility and not needing to retool with a resource surtax.
That's a possibility, though I personally don't like it.

How about just don't allow construction ships to build engines?  That way they can't build ships, and you'll still need shipyards.
Yeah, that definitely seems like an option, assuming it's not difficult to program.  The main thing for me is that I'd like to have construction ships that can build stations, and the reason for that is the lack of mobility.  Stations definitely look like they'll be more important, but if you have to rely on tugs to get them anywhere other than a colony with a large shipyard, I feel like that will limit their usefulness.  If you can build them on site, however, that's a different story.  At the same time, ships that can actually move around don't really need this, so preventing construction ships from building ships seems like it would prevent a lot of any potential abuse construction ships might otherwise allow.

Perhaps construction ships could be handled like combat engineers assembling PDCs? The components for the construction would need to be built planet-side, and a construction ship could only assemble them in space?
That also definitely seems like a good limitation.  Should definitely help to cut down on the versatility of construction ships.  I guess you could still manufacture a bunch of parts for different things to try and maintain that versatility, but that would require a significant amount of minerals, so I think it should be fine.

Conversely(or additionally), perhaps construction ships should need to be tooled at shipyards for specific projects? And that the project they're tooled for has to be done at a shipyard that could have done the construction itself(that way you can't have a 500 ton shipyard tool a construction ship for a 100k ton project).   It makes them more of an extension of a shipyard in that sense: a mobile slipway with the same costs and limits associated with the shipyard, but the advantage of being able to lay down construction at a specific location. 
I feel like requiring premade components serves more or less the same purpose, and in a more elegant way (though of course that's just my opinion).

Though maybe with a construction speed penalty added, to represent a lack of easy access to experts and specialized equipment if(when) problems during construction come up? That way there's at least some incentive to still use shipyards most of the time, and make construction ships only appealing for projects that simply can't be done at a colony.
Well, if construction ships can only build stations, you'll definitely still be using shipyards to make your actual ships.  I do like the idea that shipyards do have an advantage in building stations if you are willing to actually make a shipyard big enough to do so, so a  bit of a speed reduction on construction ships might be a good idea.  Of course,
 

Offline DocSpit

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Re: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2018, 05:40:58 PM »
After a day thinking it over, if we're going to use construction ships for actual CONSTRUCTION, they almost certainly should be limited to assembling prefabricated components from a colony.  If for no other reason than simple manpower. 

A shipyard slipway employs tens, if not hundreds of thousands of workers.  MILLIONS by the late game.  The same goes for planetary construction facilities.   A construction ship has a crew of, what? 3-400?

Which, incidentally, is also approximately the size of a battalion of combat engineers. 

Though, that still leaves an issue of how to gather together all the components you'd need for a multi-million ton starbase.

Maybe the ability to designate a 'Construction Point', in the same manner that one creates waypoints? Where components could be unloaded by freighters into deep space, to be assembled by a construction ship once everything is in place?
"I find it a great comfort that the Universe is NOT fair.  Imagine if it were and all the bad things that happened to you really WERE your fault. . . "
 

Offline waresky

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Re: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »
Someone think..Steve have a good time for? Too many suggestions,idea,sub-idea and sub-sub-suggestions. Holy crap. #C never finish. AM really hate this TONS of post about suggestions. Useless
 

Offline Profugo Barbatus

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Re: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2018, 06:45:33 PM »
Ultimately, game isn't for us, game is for Steve. He's shown time and time again that he will ignore suggestions if He personally doesn't like them. But when he sees a suggestion he likes, it becomes a piece of the game he wants to build. No harm in offering them up, he's not gonna drag it out if he doesn't want to.

As for construction ships, I don't really see the point. If this were to be implemented, I cannot possibly see it being a small component. So you'd be investing a very large sum of resource both in raw materials and slipways, to handle both the construction ships and supply ships bringing components. Then you build the station at what is likely a *very* slow pace, unless you've brought hundreds of them to bear. Or I could just invest a small commercial yard into the production of tugs, the planetary industry can make the station directly, and achieve the same thing far faster with far less complexity. Even stations in the tens of thousands of tonnes range could be handled just fine by an appropriately sized tug, which is liable to still be smaller than the construction vessel.

All this does is replace the tugs with a train of construction vessels and ships laden with components. There's no actual efficiency gained here, just a complex, subpar option.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 07:29:57 PM »
I liked construction ships because I thought we could unify 2-3 systems into one.  No need to have factories be able to be orbital habitats if construction ships do that.  We could also let military stations be built by them, since we don't need to worry how overpowered it would be to use factories to build warships.  No need to have shipyards for refitting space stations, since that always seemed unrealistic.  The whole "Build station somewhere, then tug it somewhere else" paradigm doesn't really match any fiction I'm familiar with.  Last, I thought it would be good if construction ships were used for more than just building jump gates.
 

Offline Profugo Barbatus

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Re: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 08:26:49 PM »
Removing the ability to build space stations with industry would be weird. We can build a shipyard complex that can handle 10 kiloton construction (So is likely greater than 10 kiloton in size itself) but we can't build a 10 kiloton station that comprises hangers and fuel storage, we have to build a shipyard to build a construction ship to then build that station.

If we leave in the ability to build stations with industry, and just let construction ships do the same, you end up in the same situation of building out a support fleet, which would be very expensive and tedious compared to simply building out some tugs, which are dirt cheap.

I agree I've not really seen any sci-fi that does build and then tow, but that doesn't change anything about the points I've made, since the games not trying to be any other sci-fi stuff. As for trying to make construction ships more useful, I don't really see the point. Creating a complex system to give a particular component more use doesn't seem like a good use of time at all to me. It doesn't add any depth to the simulation of combat, fleets, etc, it just adds a needless production chain to a support element that's already gaining complexity with the fueling, ordinance, and maintenance changes coming up with C#.
 

Offline the obelisk

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Re: New role for construction ships in C# (split off)
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 12:43:25 AM »
the planetary industry can make the station directly
Isn't that being removed?
Oh wow, I had it totally backwards.  I thought it was that orbital habitats no longer let construction factories build things, but it's actually that construction factories can build any station.  That definitely puts how worthwhile construction ships are into question.  The only thing I can say is that for something to be classified as a Space Stations, it can't have armor, so if you want some kind of defensive station, you probably couldn't build it with construction factories.
 

 

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