Point Defense design stratagy

[Charlie Beeler (OP)]

I think that it's a safe bet that no two of us have the same ideas of how to implement point defense for our central fleet.  I think it is worth discussing our favorite strategies and why.

For my primary races use this as a common start:

10cm laser
beam fire control 32k
fire control speed 3200 kps
turret tracking speed 3200 kps
Ultraviolet Laser
Capacitor 3

Build twin or quad 10cm UV laser turrets with speed 12,800 kps and beam fire control with range 32k km speed 3200km/s 4xsize for range and speed.  Add to this active sensors that can see size 4 missiles out to 120k/km.  This should provide you with at least 2 area mode shots at in coming missiles travel up to 12,800 kps with a reasonable chance of killing early game missiles.

Put twin mounts on all warships 5k to 8k tons and quads on those over 8k tons.

Pros:
If all warships are at least 5k tons, then all combat task groups automaticly have anti-missile coverage.
Can double as additional ship to ship battery if facing beam only ships.
Each fleet unit has some missile defense.

Cons:
Mass and hullspace expensive.
Delutes offensive power of individual fleet units.

[Brian Neumann]

I think that it's a safe bet that no two of us have the same ideas of how to implement point defense for our central fleet.  I think it is worth discussing our favorite strategies and why.

For my primary races use this as a common start:

10cm laser
beam fire control 32k
fire control speed 3200 kps
turret tracking speed 3200 kps
Ultraviolet Laser
Capacitor 3

Build twin or quad 10cm UV laser turrets with speed 12,800 kps and beam fire control with range 32k km speed 3200km/s 4xsize for range and speed.  Add to this active sensors that can see size 4 missiles out to 120k/km.  This should provide you with at least 2 area mode shots at in coming missiles travel up to 12,800 kps with a reasonable chance of killing early game missiles.

Put twin mounts on all warships 5k to 8k tons and quads on those over 8k tons.

Pros:
If all warships are at least 5k tons, then all combat task groups automaticly have anti-missile coverage.
Can double as additional ship to ship battery if facing beam only ships.
Each fleet unit has some missile defense.

Cons:
Mass and hullspace expensive.
Delutes offensive power of individual fleet units.

This is a fairly good starting point.  Most of my generalist ships have the same sort of weapons.  Where they differ is that they have two or three fire-control systems.  One at basic range and x4 speed (4hs) and one at double or tripple range (based on weapon range) and 1.5x speed.  This is a total of 10hs which is better than the 16 for you setup.  I also often put in a x.25 range, x4 speed as a backup for point defence.  As this is only 1 hs it doesn't take that much room and gives a ship a chance to shoot missles down at point blank range.

The reason that I do not put more range on the point defence is that the next level of missle tech gets the missile's moving much faster and you won't tend to get any area defence shots off and still be able to fire in final defence mode. (typical missle speed seems to be around 16-20k km/s when you upgrade the engines one level.)

Brian

[Erik L]

If a race uses missiles, I will try to build them a dedicated escort ship. Thi ship is usually in the 3000-4000 ton range, sensors, quad laser turret and max range fire control. Capital ships ( greater than 8000 ton) will usually have a twin pd turret and pd fire control.

I'll make a separate post on some thoughts I had while writing this.

[Charlie Beeler (OP)]

This is a fairly good starting point.  Most of my generalist ships have the same sort of weapons.  Where they differ is that they have two or three fire-control systems.  One at basic range and x4 speed (4hs) and one at double or tripple range (based on weapon range) and 1.5x speed.  This is a total of 10hs which is better than the 16 for you setup.  I also often put in a x.25 range, x4 speed as a backup for point defence.  As this is only 1 hs it doesn't take that much room and gives a ship a chance to shoot missles down at point blank range.
Brian

I agree that for fleet final defense, basic range and 4x speed is good.  And that for final self defense .25x range and 4x speed is all that is needed.  

But, if your going for area defense don't compromise on tracking speed.  If the incoming missiles are traveling at 12k/kps and your fire control tracks at 4.8k/kps before degridation the saved space, in my opinion, isn't helping if your installation is ineffective.  

My intent with the heavier fire control is to provide at least 2 shots at incoming missiles that have a good chance of intercept.  The reasoning being if I can force the OpFor to dedicate heavier offensive weight to overcome my defense, at the expense of thier own defense, then my offensive missiles have a better chance of reaching thier target.

[Charlie Beeler (OP)]

If a race uses missiles, I will try to build them a dedicated escort ship. Thi ship is usually in the 3000-4000 ton range, sensors, quad laser turret and max range fire control. Capital ships ( greater than 8000 ton) will usually have a twin pd turret and pd fire control.

I'll make a separate post on some thoughts I had while writing this.

For me,  the problem with dedicated escorts is that they should become prime targets.  Eliminate the escorts and the core ships are extremely vulnerable.  

On the other hand, dedicated escorts in a fleet with individual PD suites serves to thicken the defense.  Another place I do use them is in a race that, for whatever reason, didn't initially design ships with minimal PD suites on the core ships and need to deploy effective missile defenses without a total refit of the whole fleet.

[Erik L]

If a race uses missiles, I will try to build them a dedicated escort ship. Thi ship is usually in the 3000-4000 ton range, sensors, quad laser turret and max range fire control. Capital ships ( greater than 8000 ton) will usually have a twin pd turret and pd fire control.

I'll make a separate post on some thoughts I had while writing this.

For me,  the problem with dedicated escorts is that they should become prime targets.  Eliminate the escorts and the core ships are extremely vulnerable.  

On the other hand, dedicated escorts in a fleet with individual PD suites serves to thicken the defense.  Another place I do use them is in a race that, for whatever reason, didn't initially design ships with minimal PD suites on the core ships and need to deploy effective missile defenses without a total refit of the whole fleet.

True, but when you are trying to keep ship sizes in the 6-8k range, it is sometimes hard to squeeze in a PD suite on non-escort ships.

My usual fleet mix is 1-2 capital ships, 3-4 fast offensive ships, 1-2 scouts, and 2x total ships in escorts.

[Charlie Beeler (OP)]

True, but when you are trying to keep ship sizes in the 6-8k range, it is sometimes hard to squeeze in a PD suite on non-escort ships.

My usual fleet mix is 1-2 capital ships, 3-4 fast offensive ships, 1-2 scouts, and 2x total ships in escorts.

That does present a problem, but it can be done if your willing.

As an example, this is the current DD design deployed by my Terran's

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DD Forrestal class Destroyer    6000 tons     594 Crew     978.5 BP      TCS 120  TH 320  EM 360
2666 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 12-600     Sensors 25/0/0/0     Damage Control 1-1     PPV 24
Magazine 800    Replacement Parts 10    

Magneto-plasma Drive E10 (4)    Power 80    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (312 days at full power)
Gamma R600/20 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C3 Infrared Laser Turret (1x2)    Range 30,000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 1    ROF 5        3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S04 32-12800 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Launcher 04-025 (4)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 25
Missile Fire Control S01-030 (1)    Range: 300k km
ASM (4/16k/240k/a0/e0/m20) (200)  Speed: 16,000 km/s   Endurance: 15 secs    Range: 240k km   Warhead: 3    Size: 4

Active Sensor S50-R0.4/100 (1)     GPS 20     Range 200k km    Resolution 0.4
Active Sensor S10-R100/100 (1)     GPS 1000     Range 10.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH5-25/100 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km
Yes it is slow for a M-P driven DD.  This race has yet to encounter a hostle opponent and I think the design reflects that.  In relality it should probably only have 1/4 size/range fire control for the point defense instead of double to roughly match the max range of the lasers on the DE design below.

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DE CoontzA class Destroyer Escort    6000 tons     556 Crew     942.5 BP      TCS 120  TH 400  EM 300
3333 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 10-600     Sensors 25/0/0/0     Damage Control 1-1     PPV 24
Replacement Parts 10    

Magneto-plasma Drive E10 (5)    Power 80    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (250 days at full power)
Gamma R600/20 Shields (5)   Total Fuel Cost  100 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C3 Visible Light Laser Turret (3x2)    Range 60,000km     TS: 12800 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 2    ROF 5        3 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S04 32-12800 (3)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (3)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Sensor S50-R0.4/100 (1)     GPS 20     Range 200k km    Resolution 0.4
Thermal Sensor TH5-25/100 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km

The battle fleet these belong to currently has:
2 12k ton BC's
16 10k ton CA's
10 of the above DD's
10 of the above DE's
2 6k ton scouts

This is the first starting race I've built that has not pushed starting tech to have effective long range point defense lasers.

[Erik L]

Those designs are viable.

Now make a design or two with starting tech. See if you can cram effective offense with some PD.

[Charlie Beeler (OP)]

Those designs are viable.

I was mainly using them to illustrate that if your willing to trade off space from other critical systems, in this case engines, you can get a functional PD suite into fairly light ships.  Are they the right designs?  Not really.  With the same tech base any of us that have played much can design a missile ship to exploit the fact that these are relatively slow for the engine tech available.  

This would be a better ship for a destroyer role based of this races starting tech.  

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DD Forrestal - Copy class Destroyer    6000 tons     579 Crew     953.5 BP      TCS 120  TH 480  EM 420
4000 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 14-600     Sensors 25/0/0/0     Damage Control 1-1     PPV 24
Magazine 800    Replacement Parts 5    

Magneto-plasma Drive E10 (6)    Power 80    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (208 days at full power)
Gamma R600/20 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  140 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C3 Infrared Laser Turret (1x2)    Range 16,000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 1    ROF 5        3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S01 8-12800 (1)    Max Range: 16,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     37 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Launcher 04-025 (4)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 25
Missile Fire Control S01-030 (1)    Range: 300k km
ASM (4/16k/240k/a0/e0/m20) (150)  Speed: 16,000 km/s   Endurance: 15 secs    Range: 240k km   Warhead: 3    Size: 4

Active Sensor S5-R0.4/100 (1)     GPS 2     Range 20k km    Resolution 0.4
Active Sensor S10-R100/100 (1)     GPS 1000     Range 10.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH5-25/100 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km
Even if no research beyond absolute starting tech was expended something very similiar in function can be done...if your willing to make the trade offs.

This possible with those constraints

Code: [Select]

Nirbhik class Destroyer    6000 tons     587 Crew     593.5 BP      TCS 120  TH 150  EM 240
1250 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 8-300     Sensors 25/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0     PPV 25
Magazine 800    Replacement Parts 10    

Nuclear Thermal Engine E10 (6)    Power 25    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 25    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (666 days at full power)
Alpha R300/10 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  80 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C1 Infrared Laser Turret (1x2)    Range 5,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 1    ROF 15        0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S01 2.5-4000 (1)    Max Range: 5,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pressurised Water Reactor PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 2    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Launcher 04-120 (4)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 120
Missile Fire Control S01-020 (1)    Range: 200k km

Active Sensor S5-R0.2/100 (1)     GPS 1     Range 10k km    Resolution 0.2
Active Sensor S10-R100/100 (1)     GPS 1000     Range 10.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH5-25/100 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km


hmmm  While I can build the components, it appears that the system won't calc the 5k values for the fire control and lasers because it's less than 10k.  

Steve, would this design be able to function in self defense mode or does fire control have to have a minimum of 10k for the change to hit calc?

[Charlie Beeler (OP)]

This one looks better

Code: [Select]

Nirbhik class Destroyer    6000 tons     583 Crew     591.5 BP      TCS 120  TH 125  EM 300
1041 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 10-300     Sensors 25/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0     PPV 25
Magazine 800    Replacement Parts 10    

Nuclear Thermal Engine E10 (5)    Power 25    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 25    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (800 days at full power)
Alpha R300/10 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  100 Litres per day

Twin 10cm C1 Infrared Laser Turret (1x2)    Range 20,000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 1    ROF 15        3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S04 10-4000 (1)    Max Range: 20,000 km   TS: 4000 km/s     50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pressurised Water Reactor PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 2    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Launcher 04-120 (4)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 120
Missile Fire Control S01-020 (1)    Range: 200k km

Active Sensor S5-R0.2/100 (1)     GPS 1     Range 10k km    Resolution 0.2
Active Sensor S10-R100/100 (1)     GPS 1000     Range 10.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH5-25/100 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km

[Michael Sandy]

Hey, back after a long hiatus.

I saw a discussion about a weapon system that used the ship's speed instead of the tracking speed if the ship's speed were higher.  That sounds like it would be an excellent FAP weapon.

I know I am missing some stuff, but could you use FAPs like the new Battlestar Galactica series uses its Vipers in an anti-missile role?

[Brian Neumann]

Hey, back after a long hiatus.

I saw a discussion about a weapon system that used the ship's speed instead of the tracking speed if the ship's speed were higher.  That sounds like it would be an excellent FAP weapon.

I know I am missing some stuff, but could you use FAPs like the new Battlestar Galactica series uses its Vipers in an anti-missile role?

What is actually happening is for weapons that are not in a turret there is a limit to the maximum tracking speed.  It is the higher of the ship's speed, or the base tracking speed that has been reaseached.  If the ship is faster than the base tracking speed you will still need a fire-control that has a higher tracking speed to make use of it.  This was done so that slow ships and bases could still hit targets that were moving.

Brian

[sloanjh]

Hey, back after a long hiatus.

I saw a discussion about a weapon system that used the ship's speed instead of the tracking speed if the ship's speed were higher.  That sounds like it would be an excellent FAP weapon.

I know I am missing some stuff, but could you use FAPs like the new Battlestar Galactica series uses its Vipers in an anti-missile role?

Welcome Back!!

I think you're talking about fighters.  Steve has pretty much totally reworked them to make their design and capabilities more consistent with that of ships.  Here are the high points I can remember (some details may be wrong):

Fighters design works the same way GB design does. To support fighters most systems now have  a mass "granularity" of 0.1 (?). The total mass of the ship is rounded up to an integer (not sure if this is true for fighters).

The "gunboat engine" concept (2x power at 10x fuel cost) was generalized to "fighter engines" (3x power at 100x fuel cost IIRC).  "Missile engines" follow the same pattern for speed and fuel calculations (5x at 10,000 fuel cost IIRC), even though they're still designed using the old slider-bar mechanism.  This has resulting in MUCH longer missile ranges, i.e. interplanetary distances.  Note that missile fuel is paid for during construction - missile fuel tanks aren't tracked by the game.

A "fighter gun" weapon system (I forget the name) was introduced which can take multiple low-probability 1 damage point (?) shots.  This was intended for dogfighting and shooting at missiles.

A fighter can use its speed as a tracking speed for fire-control purposes (represents the pilot using the agility of the fighter to track on the target).  I think this is implemented through a special type of fire-control system that only cares about range.

"Thin-skinned" ships are allowed, which have zero armor.  This results in mass savings for the armor (I think 0.5X, but I might be wrong), but makes the ship vulnerable to strafing by fighters or by long-range laser hits.

Steve also completely reworked armor - it now is degraded while stopping hits.  I'm not sure how that will interact with the fighter gun - originally the bullets were supposed to bounce off non-thin-skinned vessels.  OTOH this may be modelled by the low hit probability - it might represent shots that hit but don't do damage.

John