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Offline Sotak246 (OP)

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Sotak246's T.E. ships
« on: May 26, 2009, 07:13:31 AM »
My first generation ships.

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Queensland class Battleship    19000 tons     1892 Crew     3050.12 BP      TCS 380  TH 1380  EM 1200
3631 km/s     Armour 6-63     Shields 40-300     Sensors 44/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 94
Annual Failure Rate: 1444%    IFR: 20.1%    Maintenance Capacity 1201 MSP    Max Repair 150 MSP
Flag Bridge    Magazine 628    

Ion Engine E5 (23)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 113.7 billion km   (362 days at full power)
Gamma R300/10 Shields (20)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per day

Triple 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 30-12     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
10cm Railgun V2/C4 (6x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 3-4     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 128-5000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2)     Total Power Output 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%

AS Missile Launcher 1 (6)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 45
Missile Fire Control FC151.2-R40 (1)     Range 151.2m km    Resolution 40
Size 6 Anti-ship Missile mk2 (105)  Speed: 21,600 km/s   End: 71.8m    Range: 93m km   WH: 7    Size: 6    TH: 72 / 43 / 21

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
Combat review:  Slow, decent but not great armor, but magazine space kept the ship in combat for quite a while.

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Nelson class Cruiser    8250 tons     830 Crew     1457.6 BP      TCS 165  TH 780  EM 0
4727 km/s     Armour 4-36     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 34
Annual Failure Rate: 272%    IFR: 3.8%    Maintenance Capacity 1221 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (13)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 218.2 billion km   (534 days at full power)

Single 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 10-4     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
Triple 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x3)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 30-12     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
Fire Control S04 128-5000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 22.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Active Search Sensor S126-R1 (1)     GPS 126     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
Basic close in cruiser.  After action review: Little slow and need faster firing weapons but got the job done quite well.

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Brazwell class Missile Cruiser    8250 tons     921 Crew     1290.08 BP      TCS 165  TH 720  EM 0
4363 km/s     Armour 3-36     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 48
Annual Failure Rate: 544%    IFR: 7.6%    Maintenance Capacity 1098 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP
Magazine 261    

Ion Engine E5 (12)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 350,000 Litres    Range 152.7 billion km   (405 days at full power)

AS Missile Launcher 1 (8)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 45
Missile Fire Control FC151.2-R40 (1)     Range 151.2m km    Resolution 40
Size 6 Anti-ship Missile mk2 (44)  Speed: 21,600 km/s   End: 71.8m    Range: 93m km   WH: 7    Size: 6    TH: 72 / 43 / 21

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Missle armed cruiser after action report:  Slow, and magazine space way too small.  Salvo size worked well to punch into enemy ship's vitals.

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Rodney class Escort Cruiser    6700 tons     597 Crew     1233.36 BP      TCS 134  TH 660  EM 0
4925 km/s     Armour 3-31     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 12
Annual Failure Rate: 359%    IFR: 5%    Maintenance Capacity 115 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP
Magazine 302    

Ion Engine E5 (11)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 214.9 billion km   (505 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V2/C4 (2x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 3-4     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

AM Missile Launcher 1 (6)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC3.78-R1 (2)     Range 3.8m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk2 (302)  Speed: 31,200 km/s   End: 9.6m    Range: 18m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 124 / 74 / 37

Active Search Sensor S126-R1 (1)     GPS 126     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
Crusier Escort(missle armed)  after action review:  Performed admirably.  Stopped approx. 90% of all missles shot at the fleet.

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Outreach class Destroyer Escort    4000 tons     427 Crew     725.8 BP      TCS 80  TH 360  EM 0
4500 km/s     Armour 2-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 44/25/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 12
Annual Failure Rate: 128%    IFR: 1.8%    Maintenance Capacity 113 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (6)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 180.0 billion km   (462 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V2/C4 (4x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 3-4     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 22.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
EM Detection Sensor EM5-25 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km
Destroyer Escort(railgun) after action report:  Performed quite well.  Picked off all leakers missed by their CLE sister ships.

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Napoleon class Destroyer    4000 tons     422 Crew     726.8 BP      TCS 80  TH 360  EM 0
4500 km/s     Armour 2-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 44/25/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 64%    IFR: 0.9%    Maintenance Capacity 227 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (6)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 180.0 billion km   (462 days at full power)

Single 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 64,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 10-4     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
EM Detection Sensor EM5-25 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km

Basic patrol DD after action review:  Slow, poor armor, minimal weaponry.  It did not do well in antimissle mode shooting down only a couple of leakers.  In ship to ship did not perform well either,  not enough firepower and too lite in armor even cripples of similar size hurt them if allowed within range.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2009, 09:48:51 AM »
A minor question and quibble...

The 64K range 20K m/s TS fire control system doesn't seem matched to the weapon capabilities why the high TS and short range?

The 10 cm V2/C4 rails seem to be a bit over capacitored as they take 3 energy to charge fully so a V2/C3 would match perfectly the C4 seems to be just wasting power and costs.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2009, 10:46:56 AM »
Quote from: "Sotak246"
My first generation ships.

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Queensland class Battleship    19000 tons     1892 Crew     3050.12 BP      TCS 380  TH 1380  EM 1200
3631 km/s     Armour 6-63     Shields 40-300     Sensors 44/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 94
Annual Failure Rate: 1444%    IFR: 20.1%    Maintenance Capacity 1201 MSP    Max Repair 150 MSP
Flag Bridge    Magazine 628    

Ion Engine E5 (23)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 113.7 billion km   (362 days at full power)
Gamma R300/10 Shields (20)   Total Fuel Cost  200 Litres per day

Triple 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x3)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 30-12     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
10cm Railgun V2/C4 (6x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 3-4     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 128-5000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (2)     Total Power Output 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%

AS Missile Launcher 1 (6)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 45
Missile Fire Control FC151.2-R40 (1)     Range 151.2m km    Resolution 40
Size 6 Anti-ship Missile mk2 (105)  Speed: 21,600 km/s   End: 71.8m    Range: 93m km   WH: 7    Size: 6    TH: 72 / 43 / 21

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
Combat review:  Slow, decent but not great armor, but magazine space kept the ship in combat for quite a while.

First, I am not sure why you add the S04 32-20000 firecon, as non of your weapons can match the tracking speed. Cut the tracking speed to 5000 and use it for your railguns

Second, it seems like you put a maintenance storage on, but virtually no engineering spaces. While this gives you a decent amount of maintenance parts, the anual failur rate is horrible.
Edit: after looking through your other designs, this seems to be true for all of your larger ships.

Third, mounting the 20cm lasers in turrets seems a waste of space, if you are using the natural tracking speed (i.e. 5000 km/s) anyway. If you want to use the lasers in a dual (anti ship / anti missile) role, the turrets should have a higher tracking speed, matching the tracking speed of the S04 FC (this will, of course raise the mass used quite a bit)

Fourth, you are mounting Anti-Missile-Missile-Launchers but no active sensor to spot those enemy missiles. Now I realize, your basic cruiser has one, but what if you are forced to use the BB alone, or all your cruisers get smashed?

Lastely, I would probably half the size of the thermal passive and add a similar sized EM sensor, but that is just my preferences.


Quote from: "Sotak246"

Quote
Nelson class Cruiser    8250 tons     830 Crew     1457.6 BP      TCS 165  TH 780  EM 0
4727 km/s     Armour 4-36     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 34
Annual Failure Rate: 272%    IFR: 3.8%    Maintenance Capacity 1221 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (13)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 218.2 billion km   (534 days at full power)

Single 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 10-4     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
Triple 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (1x3)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 30-12     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 4 3 3 3
Fire Control S04 128-5000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 22.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Active Search Sensor S126-R1 (1)     GPS 126     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
Basic close in cruiser.  After action review: Little slow and need faster firing weapons but got the job done quite well.

While with the BB, two Firecons made sense in that there were two different weapons systems with different maximum ranges, this isn´t the case here. Having a second FC, that has a tracking speed, non of your weapons can match while at the same time being much shorter ranged than any of your weapons doesn´t make a lot of sense to me.

As with the BB, no sense in mounting 5.000 km/s weapons in turrets. Save the mass and put a few more guns in :)
I am currently aiming for enough magspace for at least 10 broadsides (preferably 15, but this is rarely possible)

Your missiles have a much longer range than your actives. I usually try to have it the other way around.

From the to-hit-chances of your missiles, I guess there isn´t a lot of mass invested in manouverability. Given that, I would probably go with size 3 missiles with half the warhead (same range, speed, etc.) an 10 or 12 launchers. This has the advantage to give you larger salvos, better able to swamp enemy PD and at the same time saves some mass, so you can increase magspace.


Quote from: "Sotak246"

Quote
Rodney class Escort Cruiser    6700 tons     597 Crew     1233.36 BP      TCS 134  TH 660  EM 0
4925 km/s     Armour 3-31     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 12
Annual Failure Rate: 359%    IFR: 5%    Maintenance Capacity 115 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP
Magazine 302    

Ion Engine E5 (11)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 214.9 billion km   (505 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V2/C4 (2x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 3-4     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

AM Missile Launcher 1 (6)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC3.78-R1 (2)     Range 3.8m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile mk2 (302)  Speed: 31,200 km/s   End: 9.6m    Range: 18m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 124 / 74 / 37

Active Search Sensor S126-R1 (1)     GPS 126     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
Crusier Escort(missle armed)  after action review:  Performed admirably.  Stopped approx. 90% of all missles shot at the fleet.

I just noticed this now, your AMMs have horrible intercept chance. 37% to hit an enemy missile, moving at 10.000km/s is BAAAAD. If the enemy uses missiles similar to your own (i.e. moving at about 20k) your hit rates will be abysimal. Remove some engine mass (and some fuel) and put it into manouverability.

As for all of your Beam/Railgun armed ships, FC only needs 5.000km/s if your weapons can only track at 5.000km/s
Generally, I don´t consider Railguns good for PD from the point Ion engines are up (on major warships that is, FACs is something else). Once missiles start moving at 20k+, the inability to mount Railguns in fast-tracking turrets kills them in that capacity. Better to go with meson/laserturrets with a tracking speed as high as your fastest tracking firecon.

The anti missile radar is also somewhat short ranged, given that your missile controll has 3 times the range.

Quote from: "Sotak246"

Quote
Outreach class Destroyer Escort    4000 tons     427 Crew     725.8 BP      TCS 80  TH 360  EM 0
4500 km/s     Armour 2-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 44/25/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 12
Annual Failure Rate: 128%    IFR: 1.8%    Maintenance Capacity 113 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (6)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 180.0 billion km   (462 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V2/C4 (4x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 3-4     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 22.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
EM Detection Sensor EM5-25 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km
Destroyer Escort(railgun) after action report:  Performed quite well.  Picked off all leakers missed by their CLE sister ships.

Hm, this is a DE, but it can´t detect enemy missiles?
I would probably rip out the S50.4-R40 and put a short ranged res-1 active on (range of about 500k should be enough). If you want, you can put a shorter ranged regular active in too but I don´t think this necessary, as the DE will probably be accompanying something with long ranged actives anyway.

Quote from: "Sotak246"

Quote
Napoleon class Destroyer    4000 tons     422 Crew     726.8 BP      TCS 80  TH 360  EM 0
4500 km/s     Armour 2-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 44/25/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 64%    IFR: 0.9%    Maintenance Capacity 227 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (6)    Power 60    Efficiency 0.50    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 180.0 billion km   (462 days at full power)

Single 20cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x1)    Range 64,000km     TS: 5000 km/s     Power 10-4     RM 3    ROF 15        10 10 10 7 5 5 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 32-20000 (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor S50.4-R40 (1)     GPS 5040     Range 50.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
EM Detection Sensor EM5-25 (1)     Sensitivity 25     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km

Basic patrol DD after action review:  Slow, poor armor, minimal weaponry.  It did not do well in antimissle mode shooting down only a couple of leakers.  In ship to ship did not perform well either,  not enough firepower and too lite in armor even cripples of similar size hurt them if allowed within range.
[/quote]

Well, I basicly said most above allready. One thing hovever is uniqe to this one. You have cut the range of your 20cm Lasers to 64k by using the FC your are useing. Coupled with the low armor, this probably crippled the design


General observants (not that I´m an expert, mind you, so take everything I say with a grain of salt).

It is important to match both: Tracking speed and range of your weapons and your firecons.

"Fixed" mounts (i.e. weapons mounted on the hull of a ship instead of in a turret) can track at either the max. speed of the ship or your basic max. tracking speed (in your case, apparently 5.000km/s), whichever is higher.
Useing firecons with higher tracking speed won´t help you.

Turrets CAN take advantage of FCs with higher tracking speed, but have to be designed with that tracking speed in mind. They are therefor good for PD duty.

Mounting large caliber guns in fast tracking turrets are a good way to use up an enormous amount of mass for little gain. Better to build a dedicated PD-turret with fast firing weapons (10 or 12 cm lasers/mesons for example with ROF5) and dedicated shipkilling weapons (like your 20cm lasers)

Engineering spaces give you some spare parts and lowers the chance of a system breaking down. I usualy try to have anough to get the annual chance to at least below 200% (i.e. less than two system breakdowns in the first year). Collier, tender and tanker (and sometimes flagships) might have a maintenance storage bay, so the warships can fill up their spare part holds.

As I said above, there is never enough magazin space ;)
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline ShadoCat

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 12:51:38 AM »
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
"Fixed" mounts (i.e. weapons mounted on the hull of a ship instead of in a turret) can track at either the max. speed of the ship or your basic max. tracking speed (in your case, apparently 5.000km/s), whichever is higher.
Useing firecons with higher tracking speed won´t help you.

I think you mean lower.

Offline Paul M

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 03:23:01 AM »
Which way is it?  I don't use turreted weapons and it came as a shock to me that all that expensive research into making faster tracking weapons was essentially wasted on my ships.  Beyond forking over bases big time I can't imagine what one has to do with the other so I don't see why it has anything to do with the ship velocity in the first place.

Turrets should be the lower of the turret tracking speed or the fire control tracking speed and hull mounts should just use the fire control tracking speed.  Unless there is some game balance mechanic I am missing.

But back to the ships, I am curious how long it takes to build each one.  The Draak have 3900 ton survey ships but they take around 1.5 years to build so 6 years to build a BB sized ship, while comparable to the time it takes to build one when they were being built makes them very valuable assets.  How are you viewing them in terms of their difficulty to replace?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 05:59:39 AM »
It is higher, for the very purpose of not forking over bases.  But I agree, the implementation of turrets, while a nice idea, serves mainly as a massive penalty to any weapon that can't be mounted in one.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009, 06:18:57 AM »
And there is great rejoicing through-out the Draak military.  Though I should have said hull mounts should use the lower of the weapon tracking speed or the fire control tracking speed (and I assume this is the case).   But at least the Draaks technological investment in higher tracking speed is not invalidated.

And then again...the party was canceled as further breaking news invalidates the happiness.  booo hiss booo!

But then here is yet further news that brings joy back to the party...yay! horah! yay!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 02:38:39 AM by Paul M »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 08:13:30 AM »
Unless Steve has changed it, for fixed mounts max tracking speed is the lower value between ship max speed and fire control tracking speed.  If the beam is turret mounted then it's the lower between fire control and turret tracking speed.  

I think there is a bug in 4.00b displaying the fixed mount tracking speeds incorrectly.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009, 10:25:11 AM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Unless Steve has changed it, for fixed mounts max tracking speed is the lower value between ship max speed and fire control tracking speed.  If the beam is turret mounted then it's the lower between fire control and turret tracking speed.  

I think there is a bug in 4.00b displaying the fixed mount tracking speeds incorrectly.


I copied and pasted the following from tutorial part-3

Code: [Select]
Enterprise class Cruiser    8800 tons     850 Crew     1334 BP      TCS 176  TH 66  EM 300
1562 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 10-150     Sensors 8/5/5/0/0     Damage Control 1-1     PPV 26
Flag Bridge    Magazine 400    Replacement Parts 10    

Nuclear Thermal Engine E8 (11)    Power 25    Efficiency 0.80    Signature 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 61.3 billion km   (454 days at full power)
Alpha R150/8 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  80 Litres per day

25cm C1 Plasma Carronade (1)    Range 80,000km     TS: 2400 km/s     Power 16-1     RM 1    ROF 80        16 8 5 4 3 2 2 2 0 0
Twin R3/C1 Meson Cannon Turret (1x2)    Range 30,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 3    ROF 15        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 40-2400 (1)    Max Range: 80,000 km   TS: 2400 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Pressurised Water Reactor PB-1 AR-0 P20 (1)     Total Power Output 20    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Launcher 04-040 (2)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 40
Missile Fire Control S01-040 (1)    Range: 400k km

Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Signature 100: 0.8m km
Active Sensor MR112000-R80 (1)     GPS 11200     Range 112.0m km    Resolution 80
Grav Pulse Detection Sensor GPD1-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Strength 100: 0.5m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Strength 100: 0.5m km

As you can see, this cruiser has a maximum speed of 1562 km/s, but his Plasma Carronades have a max. tracking speed of 2400 km/s.
With the tutorial not up to 4.0, it doesn´t seem to be a display bug.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 11:03:27 AM »
Quote from: "Hawkeye"
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Unless Steve has changed it, for fixed mounts max tracking speed is the lower value between ship max speed and fire control tracking speed.  If the beam is turret mounted then it's the lower between fire control and turret tracking speed.  

I think there is a bug in 4.00b displaying the fixed mount tracking speeds incorrectly.


I copied and pasted the following from tutorial part-3

Code: [Select]
Enterprise class Cruiser    8800 tons     850 Crew     1334 BP      TCS 176  TH 66  EM 300
1562 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 10-150     Sensors 8/5/5/0/0     Damage Control 1-1     PPV 26
Flag Bridge    Magazine 400    Replacement Parts 10    

Nuclear Thermal Engine E8 (11)    Power 25    Efficiency 0.80    Signature 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 61.3 billion km   (454 days at full power)
Alpha R150/8 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  80 Litres per day

25cm C1 Plasma Carronade (1)    Range 80,000km     TS: 2400 km/s     Power 16-1     RM 1    ROF 80        16 8 5 4 3 2 2 2 0 0
Twin R3/C1 Meson Cannon Turret (1x2)    Range 30,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 3    ROF 15        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 40-2400 (1)    Max Range: 80,000 km   TS: 2400 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Pressurised Water Reactor PB-1 AR-0 P20 (1)     Total Power Output 20    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Missile Launcher 04-040 (2)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 40
Missile Fire Control S01-040 (1)    Range: 400k km

Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Signature 100: 0.8m km
Active Sensor MR112000-R80 (1)     GPS 11200     Range 112.0m km    Resolution 80
Grav Pulse Detection Sensor GPD1-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Strength 100: 0.5m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Strength 100: 0.5m km

As you can see, this cruiser has a maximum speed of 1562 km/s, but his Plasma Carronades have a max. tracking speed of 2400 km/s.
With the tutorial not up to 4.0, it doesn´t seem to be a display bug.

That actually demostrates that the display issue has been around for some time.  My description above goes back to when turrets where added (back on the Diary mailing list?).  The purpose of turrets is to facilitate beams to engage targets that are travelling faster than the ships max speed.  

If this has changed I don't recall when.  Steve??  I think we need you to weigh in with which is correct?
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 11:27:21 AM »
Tracking speed of a weapon is equal to the lower of the following, Ship Speed, Fire Control Tracking, Turret Tracking.

The Enterprise from the tutorial should show a tracking equal to the speed for non-turretted weapons, and equal to the fire control for turretted.

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 11:39:27 AM »
The base tracking speed of a weapon is the higher of the ship speed or the reasearched tracking speed.  For example if you have reasearched tracking speed 5000km/s and your ship moves at 3300km/s then the weapons tracking speed would be 5000km/s. If the ship speed was 6600km/s then the weapon tracking speed would be 6600km/s.  All of this is based on fixed mounts.  If you have a turret then the weapon tracking speed is the speed of the turret.  

The weapon tracking speed is then compared to the fire control tracking speed.  The lower of the weapon and fire control tracking speed is then used for determining the chance to hit.  For example if you only had a x1 tracking speed fire control and your weapon was at 6600km/s then the actual fire control speed would be used.  If instead you had a x2 tracking speed fire control then the comparision would be between the weapons 6600km/s and the fire controls 10000km/s.  The limit would be the weapons 6600km/s.  

A note for point defense.  If your ship speed is significantly faster than the base tracking speed of your fire control, small railguns become effective point defense.  This is because they get 4 shots for slightly less total tonnage than a comparable turreted weapon would and the base chance to hit is going to be better than 1/4th the tracking speed.  Example using above 6600km/s movement.  A 10cm laser in a turret needs about 4hs the 10cm railgun uses 3hs.  Each railgun shot has 1/3 the chance of hitting that the laser has, but you get 4 shots total.  In other words this is an effective pd weapon.  Untill gaus cannon get to 6 shots per round the 10cm railgun is going to be more effective, and probably slightly longer range.  The 12cm railgun is more effective untill you get 5 shots per round with the gauss cannon. (you need to factor in the power requirements of the railguns vs the extra range and damage from the 12cm).

Brian
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 01:12:18 PM »
Quote from: "Brian"
The base tracking speed of a weapon is the higher of the ship speed or the reasearched tracking speed.  For example if you have reasearched tracking speed 5000km/s and your ship moves at 3300km/s then the weapons tracking speed would be 5000km/s. If the ship speed was 6600km/s then the weapon tracking speed would be 6600km/s.  All of this is based on fixed mounts.  If you have a turret then the weapon tracking speed is the speed of the turret.  

The weapon tracking speed is then compared to the fire control tracking speed.  The lower of the weapon and fire control tracking speed is then used for determining the chance to hit.  For example if you only had a x1 tracking speed fire control and your weapon was at 6600km/s then the actual fire control speed would be used.  If instead you had a x2 tracking speed fire control then the comparision would be between the weapons 6600km/s and the fire controls 10000km/s.  The limit would be the weapons 6600km/s.  
The above is exactly the way it works. The reason for the base fire control speed being used if it is higher than the ships speed is that otherwise bases wouldn't be able to hit anything.

Steve
 

Offline ShadoCat

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 07:13:33 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
The above is exactly the way it works. The reason for the base fire control speed being used if it is higher than the ships speed is that otherwise bases wouldn't be able to hit anything.

Is that a change?

I recall the ship's speed being a limiting factor.

FWIW, I don't see a problem with making bases put their weapons in turrets.  Either that or put 1/10th sized engines on bases for rotation speed.  Note that most of the "engine" is the inertial dampener to keep the people from getting squished as the base spins.

Offline Paul M

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Re: Sotak246's T.E. ships
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2009, 03:02:49 AM »
I don't see why the ships speed is a factor at all.  This seems to be a total unnecessary complication.  If ships were rated for agility that might make sense (what the ships yaw or pitch rate is) as it is in Attack Vector Tactical or Squadron Strike but absolute maximum or current velocity plays little role in bringing a hardpoint to bear.