Author Topic: Max Tech Ships  (Read 1069 times)

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Offline bdub1

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Max Tech Ships
« on: March 11, 2018, 02:25:05 PM »
Here are some max tech ships i came up with.  Im not sure if it's a bug, but my turrets say they only track at 25km/s.  Feel free to tell me if it's good or bad, and how to make it good.  I have maintenance off


Agincourt class Missile Cruiser    15 000 tons     558 Crew     7437. 2 BP      TCS 300  TH 3000  EM 9000
10000 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 10-54     Shields 300-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 150
Maint Life 0. 08 Years     MSP 310    AFR 1800%    IFR 25%    1YR 3868    5YR 58016    Max Repair 900 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 17   
Magazine 486   

Fletcher Foundation J15000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Brady Drive Systems 1000 EP Photonic Drive (3)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 9%    Signature 1000    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 750 000 Litres    Range 100. 0 billion km   (115 days at full power)
Pratt Aerospace Omega R300/360 Shields (20)   Total Fuel Cost  300 Litres per hour  (7 200 per day)

Austin Kinetics Size 1 Missile Launcher (30)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Austin Kinetics Size 8 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 20
Riley Techsystems Anti-Missile Fire Control FC2025-R1 (1)     Range 2 025. 0m km    Resolution 1
Riley Techsystems Missile Fire Control FC7159-R50 (1)     Range 7 159. 4m km    Resolution 50
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (50)  Speed: 24 000 km/s   End: 2. 9d    Range: 6108. 3m km   WH: 90    Size: 8    TH: 880/528/264
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (86)  Speed: 50 000 km/s   End: 74. 2m    Range: 222. 5m km   WH: 3    Size: 1    TH: 2166/1300/650

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes 


Victory class Cruiser    15 000 tons     512 Crew     26589. 9 BP      TCS 300  TH 3000  EM 9000
10000 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 15-54     Shields 300-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 150     PPV 115
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 3000%    IFR 41. 7%    1YR 26211    5YR 393161    Max Repair 2625 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 18   
Magazine 131   

Fletcher Foundation J15000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Brady Drive Systems 1000 EP Photonic Drive (3)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 9%    Signature 1000    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 250 000 Litres    Range 166. 7 billion km   (192 days at full power)
Pratt Aerospace Omega R300/360 Shields (20)   Total Fuel Cost  300 Litres per hour  (7 200 per day)

Quad Jarvis-Dunn Aeronautical 10cm C25 Far Gamma Ray Laser Turret (5x4)    Range 360 000km     TS: 25 km/s     Power 12-100     RM 12    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
Twin Jarvis-Dunn Aeronautical 20cm C25 Far Gamma Ray Laser Turret (3x2)    Range 1 200 000km     TS: 25 km/s     Power 20-50     RM 12    ROF 5        10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
Berry-Bond Fire Control S02 700-25000 (1)    Max Range: 1 400 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     99 99 98 97 96 96 95 94 94 93
Lewis Heavy Industries Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 (9)     Total Power Output 360    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Lewis Heavy Industries Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 (2)     Total Power Output 400    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Austin Kinetics Size 1 Missile Launcher (19)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Riley Techsystems Anti-Missile Fire Control FC2025-R1 (1)     Range 2 025. 0m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (131)  Speed: 50 000 km/s   End: 74. 2m    Range: 222. 5m km   WH: 3    Size: 1    TH: 2166/1300/650

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 12:50:55 PM »
I could see an excuse for the missile ship being that slow at max tech, but not a beam weapon ship.

The anti ship missiles are ridiculously slow. 24,000?  People have missiles that fast at Magnetoplasma (TL4) if not ION tech.

Also, 3.5 reloads for a fast launcher is ridiculously low.  You could go to box launchers and have more total magazine capacity.

One of the odd game paradoxes is that missile range often goes DOWN as tech advances.  Instead of being limited by fire control, it is limited by the effect of engine boost tech on missile range.  If you want long ranged missiles, you typically go to some form of 2-stage missile.

As far as your anti-missile missile launchers, 19 launchers and only 1 fire control seems a little vulnerable.  You can only engage 1 volley at a time with 1 fire control, so if a swarm of small fighters with box launchers fired, your defenses would be ill equipped to handle it.  And again, you want a heck of a lot more reloads for AMMs.

Also, a bit of a definition thing for me:

A cruiser has to be capable of independent cruises.  It therefore needs sensors, or to be an integral part of a squadron that has sensors, that allow it to use its weaponry effectively.
 

Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2018, 02:06:26 PM »
I never actually got to that tech level, but I imagine your fire control ranges are a bit overengineered. not that long range is not a good thing, I quite like it, but try tuning your fire control range to be about the same as your missiles, and if possible put some ECCM to make sure the enemy doesn't try to do something funny with your FC. also, for really long range missiles, use 2 stages. Since your range is way of the chart even on your point defense, I wouldn't be particularly worried about most enemies, but again, you would do much better by cuting the range on AMM to around 20 million KM with sensors and FC about enough to target enemy size 6 missiles at said distance (and even then that is considered crazy long range for PD).
I also like your overall offensive capabilities on your missile ship, but I am afraid that it feels more like a tanky ship than a properly agressive ship, I say you need to cut down a bit of your armour and shields and get yourself some bigger magazines and more lauchers for that matter. It might be just me but I also think bringing colliers with your missile cruisers is generally a good idea, specially with magazines that size.
Speaking of magazines and missiles, what are you firing at? why do you really need  these hit chances? you put way too much on agility, and you could use the space you put on agility on other things, like engine size to go faster, of armour to make your missiles harder to bring down. try going for a 90% chance to hit on your faster enemies, and remember that faster missiles also get better acuraccy, along with being harder to put down.
so yea, overall, not bad for a first try...
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Offline Shiwanabe

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 10:43:28 PM »
Now, I've never reached that level either, but for comparison here's a couple of my own first takes on a combat vessel with max science. (Sadly the first abuses the bug where cloaking devices don't check against the ship's total size, the second is small enough to be within the limit.)

Code: [Select]
DDG-A class Missile Destroyer    10,000 tons     301 Crew     29773.8 BP      TCS 1  TH 120  EM 8100
60000 km/s    JR 3-2000     Armour 10-41     Shields 270-300     Sensors 75/75/0/0     Damage Control Rating 11     PPV 24
Maint Life 3.36 Years     MSP 20469    AFR 72%    IFR 1%    1YR 2745    5YR 41175    Max Repair 12000 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 336    Cryogenic Berths 200   

J10000(3-2000) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 10000 tons    Distance 2000k km     Squadron Size 3
6000 EP Photonic Drive (2)    Power 6000    Fuel Use 39.6%    Signature 60    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 1,255,000 Litres    Range 57.0 billion km   (11 days at full power)
Omega R300/360 Shields (18)   Total Fuel Cost  270 Litres per hour  (6,480 per day)

Size 6 Missile Launcher (50% Reduction) (8)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 75
Missile Fire Control FC405-R1 (2)     Range 405.0m km    Resolution 1
Jackhammer (56)  Speed: 115,000 km/s   End: 18.2m    Range: 125.7m km   WH: 100    Size: 6    TH: 2990/1794/897

Active Search Sensor MR810-R1 (1)     GPS 1080     Range 810.0m km    MCR 88.2m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-75 (1)     Sensitivity 75     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  75m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-75 (1)     Sensitivity 75     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  75m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.5% of normal

Compact ECCM-10 (2)         ECM 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
FPC-A-AF-II class Fast Patrol Craft    1,000 tons     17 Crew     1079.05 BP      TCS 0.1  TH 1200  EM 0
60000 km/s     Armour 10-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 3
Maint Life 12.8 Years     MSP 674    AFR 8%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 8    5YR 114    Max Repair 300 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.5 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 22   

600 EP Photonic Drive (2)    Power 600    Fuel Use 54.87%    Signature 600    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 155,000 Litres    Range 50.8 billion km   (9 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (75% Reduction) (4)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC121-R1 (2)     Range 121.5m km    Resolution 1
Sidewinder (22)  Speed: 186,000 km/s   End: 5.5m    Range: 61.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 1    TH: 7812/4687/2343

Active Search Sensor MR135-R1 (1)     GPS 180     Range 135.0m km    MCR 14.7m km    Resolution 1
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 0.5% of normal

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Looking over them a couple of weeks later I'm seeing quite a few issues with them, and a few places where they might need different design targets.


Big things I've noticed go weird at max science:

Cloaking devices become tiny, 6.6% tonnage for a 99.5% reduction. This means that sensors are pretty much all Res 1 and due to the minimum size of 2 fighters are unable to get anywhere without being detected. Ships under 3000t may or may not be harder to detect than minimum size missiles.
Damage values are high enough that armor is only effective until ~10 layers. Shock damage at this point is a huge portion of the final damage. (Might actually be a lower armor level, but I've not fought/tested enough to tell where the break point for shields v armor is.)
As ECM can't get higher than ECCM you don't need to over-engineer FCs for that. Cloaks on the other hand...

Stuff I've not experimented with:
Missile damage v range v speed
Ship fuel range v speed v payload
pretty much anything other than theory and some shock damage tests


Mostly it's just so far beyond what most people see we're kinda flailing. Standard design assumptions we've learnt don't hold up and we've not yet seen enough to make new ones or adjust the existing ones far enough.
 
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Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 11:59:45 AM »
60000km/s thats just madness. that is just complete and absolute madness. my anti missile missile sistems would have problem hiting this. in fact I would have problems detecting this too since its cloaked. 2 missiles would kill most of my ships. I would need to go 5 vs 1 on pd to have barely a chance of geting SOME missiles out of the sky. with the current tech I have on my campaign that is.
To beam, or not to beam.   That is the question
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 08:56:28 PM »
Beam weapons get absolutely crazy-deadly.  Because their max range stops increasing at 5 light-seconds, the highest level fire control techs just make them more and more accurate.  I can easily imagine a single beam destroyer dishing out many hundreds, maybe a thousand damage every increment at max range.
 

Offline bdub1

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 11:51:01 PM »
Ok, i've taken some of your recommendations and designed this.   Are these better or worse than the first ones? They're still slow, but the enemies are only going 4k right now. 

Hunt class Missile Cruiser    15 000 tons     546 Crew     8334.  65 BP      TCS 300  TH 3000  EM 4500
10000 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 4-54     Shields 150-300     Sensors 1/375/0/0     Damage Control Rating 64     PPV 125
Maint Life 1.  27 Years     MSP 1389    AFR 450%    IFR 6.  2%    1YR 900    5YR 13501    Max Repair 1800 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 20   
Magazine 980   

Boyle-Howell J15000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Doherty Techsystems 500 EP Photonic Drive (6)    Power 500    Fuel Use 9.  5%    Signature 500    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres    Range 63.  2 billion km   (73 days at full power)
Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Omega R300/360 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  150 Litres per hour  (3 600 per day)

Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Size 8 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 20
Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Size 1 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Peacock-Murphy Missile Fire Control FC1620-R1 (50%) (1)     Range 1 620.  0m km    Resolution 1
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (111)  Speed: 56 200 km/s   End: 130.  9m    Range: 441.  3m km   WH: 90    Size: 8    TH: 374/224/112
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (92)  Speed: 180 000 km/s   End: 17.  2m    Range: 185.  9m km   WH: 3    Size: 1    TH: 7800/4680/2340

Cross Cybernetics Active Search Sensor MR9545-R50 (1)     GPS 90000     Range 9 545.  9m km    Resolution 50
Bull & Gilbert EM Detection Sensor EM5-375 (1)     Sensitivity 375     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  375m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes. 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Exeter class Beam Cruiser    15 000 tons     534 Crew     34619 BP      TCS 300  TH 4500  EM 3600
15000 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 8-54     Shields 120-300     Sensors 1/375/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 130.  83
Maint Life 0.  09 Years     MSP 1442    AFR 1800%    IFR 25%    1YR 15871    5YR 238062    Max Repair 2625 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 5   

Boyle-Howell J15000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Doherty Techsystems 500 EP Photonic Drive (9)    Power 500    Fuel Use 9.  5%    Signature 500    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres    Range 126.  3 billion km   (97 days at full power)
Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Omega R300/360 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  120 Litres per hour  (2 880 per day)

Twin 10cm Laser Turret (11x2)    Range 360 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-50     RM 12    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
Twin 20cm Laser Turret (5x2)    Range 1 200 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 20-50     RM 12    ROF 5        10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
Goddard-Benson Engineering Company Fire Control S02 700-25000 (2)    Max Range: 1 400 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     99 99 98 97 96 96 95 94 94 93
Hart-Mellor Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 (4)     Total Power Output 640    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Hart-Mellor Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 (3)     Total Power Output 240    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Cross Cybernetics Active Search Sensor MR9545-R50 (1)     GPS 90000     Range 9 545.  9m km    Resolution 50
Bull & Gilbert EM Detection Sensor EM5-375 (1)     Sensitivity 375     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  375m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


King George V class Battleship    35 000 tons     1141 Crew     49022. 85 BP      TCS 700  TH 10000  EM 10350
14285 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 15-95     Shields 345-300     Sensors 1/375/0/0     Damage Control Rating 170     PPV 219. 6
Maint Life 2. 64 Years     MSP 17508    AFR 490%    IFR 6. 8%    1YR 3564    5YR 53455    Max Repair 2625 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 3   
Magazine 2090   

Glover Heavy Industries J35000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 35000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Doherty Techsystems 500 EP Photonic Drive (20)    Power 500    Fuel Use 9. 5%    Signature 500    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 750 000 Litres    Range 94. 7 billion km   (76 days at full power)
Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Omega R300/360 Shields (23)   Total Fuel Cost  345 Litres per hour  (8 280 per day)

Twin 10cm Laser Turret (10x2)    Range 360 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 6-50     RM 12    ROF 5        3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
Twin 20cm Laser Turret (5x2)    Range 1 200 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 20-50     RM 12    ROF 5        10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
Goddard-Benson Engineering Company Fire Control S02 700-25000 (4)    Max Range: 1 400 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     99 99 98 97 96 96 95 94 94 93
Hart-Mellor Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 (4)     Total Power Output 320    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Hart-Mellor Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1 (4)     Total Power Output 640    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Size 8 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 20
Holden-Duncan Manufacturing Size 1 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Peacock-Murphy Missile Fire Control FC1620-R1 (50%) (2)     Range 1 620. 0m km    Resolution 1
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (200)  Speed: 56 200 km/s   End: 130. 9m    Range: 441. 3m km   WH: 90    Size: 8    TH: 374/224/112
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (490)  Speed: 180 000 km/s   End: 17. 2m    Range: 185. 9m km   WH: 3    Size: 1    TH: 7800/4680/2340

Cross Cybernetics Active Search Sensor MR9545-R50 (1)     GPS 90000     Range 9 545. 9m km    Resolution 50
Bull & Gilbert EM Detection Sensor EM5-375 (1)     Sensitivity 375     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  375m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 11:54:53 PM by bdub1 »
 

Offline Shiwanabe

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2018, 03:36:30 PM »
...Snip...
TL/DR: looks decent, more refining can be done. :)

I don't have time for a full review atm, I'll get onto that this evening once I'm home again. But here's a first pass:

Speed - Yeah, enemy speed tends to be the biggest reason to go fast in Aurora. I'd personally still go for 20-40k as you'll start outrunning missiles. ;)

Range - Very inconsistent ranges. Personally I pick a range that'll cover my empire and use Vandemeer's engine sheet to see what speed/size I'll need for that. (30-40B km tends to be the range i settle on.)

Armour - Again this is enemy dependent, but I'd recommend somewhere around 8-10 as a decent first approx. It's enough that a first hit will either fail to pen, or cause shock damage anyway.

Missiles - I'll come back to this, but I've found that at this tech you can start designing around the speed limit of 290000 km/s. Oh, and my AMMs ended up with a WH of 4 with like 10M km range. (Also, personal preference, but size 6 missiles are tracked at the same range as size 1 missiles so I tend to stop there unless I really need more damage/range or are dealing in Multi stage missiles)
             - The offensive missile seems a bit off. Is that a max tech missile? I was getting a size 6 to WH100, 120k km/s, 100% accuracy v 60k km/s, 200m km range missiles. I haven't tried with longer range, but I don't feel double range would cost that much? (a quick poke of a missile sheet and I'm looking at size 8, WH110, 95.3k km/s, 100% @ 60k km/s, 403m km range. Not sure what the difference in design to yours was)
Edit: Both of the missiles I show here lack sensors, so take that into consideration.

Active Sensors - I find the range on R1 sensors is so crazy I don't need anything higher even when dealing with 'normals'. Also, R50 sensor, R1 MFC.

Turrets - 25km/s turrents, 10km/s FCs. The game lowest is used for accuracy.


More in depth later. I got too caught up as it is.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 03:50:38 PM by Shiwanabe »
 

Offline I_Sicarius_I

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Re: Max Tech Ships
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 11:11:34 PM »
I can get a 70k ton dreadnought moving at 15k kmhs with respectable range with 1m litres of fuel at max tech. This 15kt ship should be much faster
 

 

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