Author Topic: Frontier-Class Destroyer, Ultra Low-tech Combat Ship, 4.5K Tons w/ Scout  (Read 2581 times)

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Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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Frontier-Class Destroyer:
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Frontier class Destroyer    4,500 tons     92 Crew     305.2 BP      TCS 90  TH 100  EM 0
1111 km/s     Armour 1-24     Shields 0-0     Sensors 5/5/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 9
Maint Life 4.57 Years     MSP 127    AFR 54%    IFR 0.7%    1YR 10    5YR 148    Max Repair 30 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Flight Crew Berths 9   
Hangar Deck Capacity 250 tons     Magazine 99   

Frontier Nuclear Engine (1)    Power 100    Fuel Use 10.61%    Signature 100    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 110,000 Litres    Range 41.5 billion km   (431 days at full power)

Frontier "Torpedo Tube" (3)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 90
Frontier Missile FCS (1)     Range 15.0m km    Resolution 100

Frontier Search Sensor (1)     GPS 3000     Range 15.0m km    Resolution 100
Frontier TH Passive Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km
Frontier EM Passive Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  5m km

Strike Group
2x Cricket Scout   Speed: 2049 km/s    Size: 2.44

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


Designer's Blurb:
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 --- Designed off of World War 2-era Destroyers in the "Torpedo Boat" vein, i.e. NOT Destroyer Escorts or later war ASW-focused ones; the Frontier-Class is a very low-tech combat vessel for early-game use. Size-3 Missile Launchers afford a flexible approach to missile design, while a trio of 30 Capacity magazines offers you ten salvos before you run dry. The huge Active Sensor System and Missile FCS give it a target acquisition range of 15 million kilometers against targets with a Hull Size of 100 or more. Conventional Armor and Nuclear-Thermal Engines means you need almost no Research Points to field this vessel. The most advanced technology on it is actually on it's scout, the Cricket-Class; and that is the Engineering Spaces- Fighter. A single Boat Bay offers some additional capability to field heavier craft as needed. A six-month deployment window means that this vessel is optimal for long-term guard or patrol duty, as well as giving it the legs it needs to compensate for it's low-tech engines. It's top speed of just over a thousand kilometers per second makes it quite fast for a Nuclear-Thermal Engine design. The full roster of tech required to field a Frontier-Class Destroyer is: Fuel Storage - Small / Tiny, Engineering Spaces - Small / Tiny / Fighter, Pressurized Water Reactor, Nuclear Thermal Engines, Active Sensor Strength 10, Thermal Sensor Strength 5 and the racial techs to build the components. Not too much and definitely useful techs for later on. The required RPs might shift for a Conventional Start, haven't checked.

 --- A small, squat design, the Frontier-Class features a well-proportioned profile that presents a roughly equal target regardless of orientation. Not armored in the slightest, the Frontier-Class of Destroyer is focused more around superior engagement range, using it's mobility to assist it to that end. The Boat Bay sports access to it's Own Engineering Space, with it's nine Spare Berths arrayed around it. Two Bridges allow for robust and efficient command and control for the vessel itself, it's parasites and for the monitoring of sensor data between not only those, but any probes that might be launched by the Frontier. Primary crew quarters are found nestled circularly around these Bridges, with all of them arranged centrifugally along the ships "spine" wedged between the "Fore" and "Aft" Engineering Spaces. The "Torpedo Tubes" are arrayed at the "Fore", while the single engine is housed at the "Aft". an array of nozzles allows this single engine to steer the ship, greatly reducing the number of additional thrust ports required along the hull, although there are still a few for fine maneuvering...

Cricket-Class Scout:
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Cricket-Class Scout    122 tons     2 Crew     11.6 BP      TCS 2.44  TH 5  EM 0
2049 km/s     Armour 1-2     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 28.48 Years     MSP 6    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 0    Max Repair 5 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 0   

Cricket Nuclear Engine (1)    Power 5    Fuel Use 99%    Signature 5    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 7.5 billion km   (42 days at full power)

Cricket Sensor System (1)     GPS 100     Range 500k km    Resolution 100

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


Designer's Blurb:
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 --- The Cricket-Class is a small ship which could fit into a Small Boat Bay offering some flexibility in it's deployment. Although fast for a Nuclear-Thermal Craft, it's really the range of this Scout which gives it it's usefulness. With a full month of deployment time, the Cricket can perform long-range recon as well as being used to investigate signals from afar. Utilizing a two-man crew consisting of a pair of Pilots who double as Engineers, the Cricket's Fighter -Sized Crew Quarters are rather... luxurious within their type. Consisting of a small mess, toilet, and seats which double as bunks; the Cricket-Class even provides minimal recreational storage and a zero-g shower. The robust design is also a snap to maintain and repair... at least from the hangar. The crew aboard a Cricket-Class Scout are restricted to routine maintenance, for the most part, with the ability to repair minor to moderate issues with relative ease should the need arise.
 

Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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For a Conventional Start, the Research Points was something in the vein of 30,000~ or so RPs, including Trans-Newtonian but excluding Racial Technologies. So, let's say it takes 60,000 RPs for the sake of argument, which isn't bad for a combat-capable warship. Not bad at all, actually... considering a "standard" TN start gives you exactly twice that from turn one.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Size three missiles are a bit small to put to other purposes (such as multi-warhead, or long-range slow boosters with small fast penetrators, or geo survey drones, or captor mines).

I'm wary of ships that mount only a single engine.  If it breaks you're stuck, but with 127 MSP and only 30 required to fix it, you should be okay in normal circumstances.  Combat damage (repairs cost double) is unlikely to break enough stuff without destroying the ship to be a problem.
 
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Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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What size would you recommend?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Recommend?  Hmm. . .  I'm not sure I've used missile enough to recommend with any confidence.  Personally, I'd use size 6 but that's mainly because it's easier to divide into halves, thirds, or quarters than size 5.

But I've also gone the 'ICBM' route of size 24 monsters with multiple warheads.
 
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Offline Resident Evil

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Hi.

I was looking at putting small scout craft in bays in some of my recent ship designs for doing jump point scouting; so they had an engine, jump drive, and small active sensors.

But...., even 6HS was far too much valuable space on the mothership for it to be worthwhile. So instead, I just upped the size, number of engines, size of the sensor, and deployment time, and added fuel to the scout, so it could accompany the mothership for 48 months with 50billion km range, so everything matched; for a 500 ton fighter craft.

I'm just suggesting maybe make the scouts bigger to accompany the destroyer, but not needing a boat bay; then you could add 'things' to the destroyer that you've otherwise had to leave out.

ZG
 
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Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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@Resident Evil

     Yeah, I didn't really consider that, although these scouts are not meant to be Jump Capable. Jump Scouts in my opinion should be bigger than 500 Tons, since even with Jump Efficiency 10, you really struggle to cram enough onto a 500 Ton platform. No, the Cricket-Class is meant to be small and stealthy, using it's good range to allow the Frontier-Class to remain hidden from enemies in passive and still fire it's missiles. The Cricket also makes a good forward scout, in the sense that anything the Thermal or EM passive sensors on the Frontier pick up can be investigated by the Cricket without endangering itself in the process. Having a pair also let's them serve as bait. The Frontier's EM sensors could see it's own Active Sensor signature from 15 million kilometers, while it's own Active Sensors could not; as it is a 4,500 Ton ship versus 5,000 Tons.

     I might do some alterations to it in the future, but it was more of a one off that I thought was interesting; so I shared it as usual. I don't like Jump Drives on craft that are 500 Tons or less, unless it's a Courier. Even 750-Tons gives me a lot more wiggle room with Passive and Active Sensors in addition to speed, range and armor. Likewise a thousand ton FAC can start using a basic Cloak with 75% reduction, turning into a 250-Ton signature with enough tonnage to mount some great EM / TH Passive Sensors and a relatively large Res 50 Active Sensor for general purpose use. Another use for those FACs is a high-endurance Scout / Point-Defense Corvette with a Jump Tender; the 2x Hangars with their 2,100 Tons more than make up for the MSP savings on very long campaigns, good for long term border surveillance or raiding in conjunction with a rotation of shorter endurance strike ships.

     Even though 300 Tons is a lot for Scouts, the main gain in using Boat Bays, or indeed ANY kind of module that grants Hangar Space, at least in my own opinion; is the ability to not rack up the Maintenance Clock of any ships docked within. Repairs are great and all, as well as the flexibility of being able to upgrade the ship's complement to help keep it technologically relevant, but the maintenance issues are the strongest reason in my opinion for the use of hangars of any sort. Another advantage would be range, where as even a small 125-Ton fighter can establish a sensor presence at significant ranges, thus extending the mothership's own radius and without endangering it by turning on it's own sensors. I do suppose your Scouts could do this in much the same fashion as my own, however a drawback to this would be the MSP required for it. Your 500-Ton ship will need to balance it's tonnage between Fuel, Engines, MSPs, Engineering Bays [admittedly these are largely negligible], Life Support and Mission Tonnage [Sensors, Weapons, Cloaks, Jump Drives, etc.] and then rectify all that with speed, which needs either bigger engines or thirstier ones, depending on how you aim to get it.

    So I'm thankful you said something, as that is a great idea I hadn't thought to try. I don't remember if you are new here or not, but I know I most certainly am. I don't feel that your design suggestion would fit the intended role of the Cricket with regards to it's deployment on a Frontier-Class Destroyer, but the idea of a 500-Ton long range Jump Scout has me intrigued both by it, and how I could expand on it. I've stuffed all kinds of roles into 500-Ton hulls, heck what's one more? I could definitely see the weight such a design would free up being useful, particularly as a sensor-laden leader for Jump-Capable Squadrons of long-range support fighters, operating in the Point-Defense role, or small Box Launcher Missile fighters that could make use of a collier with a Boat Bay or Small Boat Bay for reloading. Or even as advance scouts for Point Defense Ships, Missile Ships, Raiders and even supply ships where Jump Shock might render them vulnerable to fire from enemy raiders lying in wait.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 03:07:07 PM by xenoscepter »
 
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Offline Resident Evil

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Hey.

I wasn't suggesting to make your scouts jump capable. I was only making the point that upping deployment time and fuel, and possibly sticking a bigger sensor on the Cricket would give you a scout that could accompany the Frontier for it's mission, but without the need for a boat bay.

In my situation, I needed a small jump capable scout, with a 20 million kn sensor on it to go through the jump gate first to make sure the other side was clear before the more expensive ships jumped in. If the jump is hostile, hey ho, I've only lost a cheap fighter sized craft - and I can live with that :)

It's just a suggestion.

btw, I love all the background fluff you come up with for your ships - it's great and adds real flavour to the designs.

RE

edit:

If you're interested this is the design for the jump scout I was using...

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Ghost class Scout    350 tons     9 Crew     97 BP      TCS 7  TH 30  EM 0
4285 km/s    JR 1-50     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Maint Life 58.27 Years     MSP 87    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 29 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Spare Berths 2   

Shah-Mellor J400(1-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 400 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 1
Shah-Mellor 15 EP Ion Drive Px1.25 (F0.5/T100/e0.865) (2)    Power 15    Fuel Use 86.47%    Signature 15    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 75,000 Litres    Range 44.6 billion km   (120 days at full power)

SBO Systems ASS 0.8 MR20-R15 (a28/e14/100%) (1)     GPS 432     Range 20.1m km    Resolution 15

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

The reason I came up with this is because I was dealing with *spoilers* in a couple of systems, and needed to make sure the gate was clear on the other side before I jumped my main fleet in. It was frankly easier and quicker to build a long range scout to accompany the fleet; rather than a short range scout which would need a mothership - in which case I'd have needed to refit an existing ship, or come up with a new ship class to deploy the scout - both of which were far too much work as an alternative solution.

Regards

RE
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 03:25:40 PM by Resident Evil »
 
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Offline xenoscepter (OP)

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@Resident Evil

     Oh, I'm not upset or anything. I think it's an interesting idea. I just don't think it fits the design and was hoping to explain my reasoning so anyone else readings this could potentially benefit from that.  :)

TL:DR;

     I just think fielding a bigger Cricket as opposed to a smaller one with regard to the tonnage invested in MSPs, bigger engines [or faster, fuel-hungry ones; 2,000+ km/s with a Nuclear Thermal Engine is nothing to sneeze at...], and the fuel to run 'em wasn't as efficient as packing 250-Tons of Scout into a 300-Ton space for free maintenance and no fuel use they are not needed.

Cheers!
 

Offline Sematary

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I tend to use two missile sizes. Size 1 for my Anti-Missile Missiles, and size 4 for my Anti-Ship Missiles. I think size 4 strikes a decent balance between reload speed and having a decent missile. I wouldn't really recommend going above size 6 since bigger than that sensors can pick them up farther away. I would also say size 2 isn't enough for a good ASM without dumping a lot of tech into it and if you are doing that then larger ASMs are going to benefit just as much from that tech. Size 3 could probably make a decent missile but I, personally, think that its still too small to make a good missile.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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I have some quibbles about the research priority.

I would get more engine boost technology before I would research small fuel tanks, just as an example.  But I really appreciate you post the techs you have with the ship, that helps the discussion a lot.

I REALLY like small scouts.  Playing around with parasite scouts has made me leery of sci-fi settings where they DON'T have expendable drone scouts or scout craft in general.  Any space battle, one of the huge conflicts is going to be around scouting and detection.

My love of small scouts started in a game where I decided that I wanted to build fighter factories early, instead of just ramping up once I got some 'killer' tech that made fighters viable.  I figured it would be more organic if I was already using fighters for something, and there would therefore be more interest in developing technologies that could be applied to an existing industry rather than developing the tech and the industry at the same time.

My first scouts were jump-scout pinnaces.  I built them with the bare minimum jump technology.  200 ton ships with 1 HS for fuel efficient engine, 1 HS for jump engine, a 1/2 sized engineering system, some fuel and crew quarters.  I figured about 3 year endurance was good for scouting out new systems.  They were slow, but they allowed me to scout systems for aliens without exposing more expensive ships.  And because they were so small, I didn't have to worry about them revealing the jump point to aliens.  I had one scare where the aliens followed me into the system I scouted from, a system that happened to be adjacent to my home system.  Fortunately there was a loop, so I could have my scouts disengage the OTHER direction, and jump out once I was utterly convinced the enemy wasn't in range.  7 freaking Swarm Motherships.

I research efficiency 5 jump tech pretty quickly, and that becomes the basis for my jump tenders.  My second generation jump-scouts include both 250 ton and 500 ton ones.  The 250 ton ones have 2 HS for engine, a .1 HS active sensor, and the 500 ton ones have 3 HS for engine, and a 2 HS sensor, usually an EM sensor.  EM is the most reliable way of detecting an enemy without them detecting you.  If they have a big noisy anti-ship sensor, my EM scout can detect and maneuver around them.

Once I have a lot of survey support carriers and jump tenders, I start using a couple of new classes of fighter scouts.  Instead of just face-checking rocks, which requires 60 billion km range or so to do efficiently, I have forward observers.  These are fighters designed to maintain an active lock on an enemy while staying out of range.  They have much lower crew endurance, and much more boosted engines.

My 3rd gen system scouts are bare bones, 1 HS of boosted engine, .4 HS of fuel, .1 HS of active sensor, for maybe 80 tons.  They are cheap as heck, fast, and have decent range.  The cheap part means I can afford to have them everywhere.  My colonies have a carrier PDC that bases a few scouts and a fast beam fighter for killing enemy survey craft.  Because the 3rd gen scouts don't have mass for maintenance, endurance or jump engines, they are far more efficient, but they depend on the infrastructure of the survey support carrier and tender.

My forward observer designs currently are 3 HS for engine, 1 HS for fuel, 1 HS for sensors, for about 300 tons.  Unfortunately just above that of a boat bay.  I really want a 50% of HS in engine speed for my fast scouts, but I suppose 40% might be acceptable.  I really like having the speed cushion.  I would prefer a 500 ton hangar design, so that your patrol cruisers can also host up-to-date war fighters as well as scouts.

I also have 15 ton Long Watch 'fighters' that are nothing but 60 year of crew endurance to simulate an automated sensor outpost.  I name their task group after the jump point they are stationed at.  It has a downside in that I have a lot of MN (monitor) task groups to scroll past, but I have a quick way of checking if I have a sensor outpost at a particular jump point.

As my economy improves, the plan is to put more capable sensor platforms up.  Platforms that have a 1 HS res-1 active sensor, a full sized engineering system, designed as a commercial (no maintenance, no crew morale issues) early warning system.  For around 40 BP.  The cost isn't just the platforms, but the micro involved in placing them.

The beauty of fighters for scouts is that you can have as many different types as you want without retooling.  A downside is that you have a huge variety of craft to manage.

Scout effectiveness is all about size.  The size of your sensor relative to your cross-section.  So small scouts with high ratio for a single sensor are highly effective.  I distinguish scouts from forward observer roles in my tactics and scout design.  A forward observer has to maintain an active lock on an enemy, so it needs speed.  But since it is part of an assault force, it generally doesn't need endurance.  Scouts have to have multi-year endurance so they can spend as much of their life on scouting and not on travelling to and from the frontier and resetting maintenance clocks in a hangar.

It takes a bit of experimenting to figure the right ratio of scouts to survey ships to always have scouts available to scout newly discovered jump points.  Obsolete jump scouts are still useful for a long time.  They may be slow, but they can be immediately available.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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One major improvement you could make would be to fix the miss-match in fuel range vs crew range.

In my opinion, the endurances should be balanced by which are the hardest/easiest to reset.

Fuel is the easiest to reset, just have a tanker or a colony with a fuel depot on it, so for military ships, that endurance should be the shortest.  Crew endurance, you could have these patrolling a colony with 10,000 pop, making a decent frontier guard.  But maintenance requires either a large hangar or significant maintenance facilities, and rewinding maintenance clocks takes longer.

A good rule of thumb for Cruiser warships is an engine to fuel ratio of 2.5-1 or 3-1.  Parasite fighters and warships, an engine to fuel ratio in the 5:1 ratio is acceptable.

Unless you are using commercial engines for your cruisers so you can use commercial jump engines, you generally want a good deal of boost on your military ships, to make them faster and have less HS in engines.

And I am going to quibble a bit on the "one engine" issue.

While a large engine may result in a ship being completely disabled by a single hit, small warships are also vulnerable to mission kills from their fire control failing, their weapon being hit, their magazine, their fuel, etc...  It is more a matter of, what is the odds that the damage WON'T mission kill the warship.  Losing half their engines can be a mission kill for a lot of ship concepts.  More of a concern is whether they can repair the engine if they have an engineering failure or battle damage.

I design parasite corvettes with a single boosted engine.  They can't carry enough spares to repair the engine, but any damage to a boosted engine is likely to chain explode and kill the whole ship anyway, so better a large engine that sometimes DOESN'T blow up on damage.  In my opinion.

For a cruiser design that is going to be out of regular maintenance for years, a single engine is a problem, because you need a lot more maintenance supplies to fix it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 10:34:28 PM by Michael Sandy »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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I fully agree with everything Michael said above and this is very close to my own development in my games, especially in a multi faction environment where things develop more dynamically and less in leaps and bounds.

I have the same reservation with the OP ships in that they are not well though out of in terms of what they are suppose to do, in terms of game mechanics that is... not role play mind you. The destroyer itself obviously have way more fuel than it will ever need. I have never had any ship outside freighters move continuously at max speed until they get to a location where they can refuel.

The endurance of a ship should be based on the max distance you think you will ever move until you get access to a refuelling location, this can be a ship or location.

Deployment rate should always be considered based on the ships role. How long do you think any missions the ship will be issued will take. The faster a ship is the less time you also need to consider going from the rally point to the mission site. So the higher the technology the lower your deployment rate might become, but it also is depending on how far out from any rally points your ships are going to be travelling. I also deem deployment of over 12 month to be relatively unrealistic for an efficient warship by human standards. For research, exploration and deep scout missions I can live with times up to 24-36 months. But these are role playing limitations I impose on myself.

Maintenance life cycles are a bit more complicated... but I like to have my warships with at least around 2.5 years in service before forced maintenance. This is generally a good amount of time for which you can use a large part of a fleet for at least 6-12 month for a large offensive without risking too much when you need to send ships back for maintenance. The larger the ships the longer I tend to give them in maintenance cycles since they usually have less places to perform proper maintenance and upgrades on.

Always put at least a 125t hangar on every ship above 2000t more on larger ships... fighter utility ships are just that useful and important. Small scouts are the key to engaging an enemy on your term and not theirs. Loosing a small 100-400t scout is nothing to even loosing a 2000t scout corvette.

Also, don't forget to put passive EM sensors on your fighter scouts. You want to know when the enemy are using sensors to find them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 12:33:08 PM by Jorgen_CAB »