Author Topic: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)  (Read 7175 times)

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Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: Alliance Navy
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2009, 01:03:25 PM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
And we won't talk about how the Manx fit in..... :)

Just for completeness and borrowed from Wiki :). Again, paraphrasing from Wiki...

The Channel Islands are a group of four islands in the English Channel, off the French coast of Normandy. They include two separate bailiwicks: the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey. They are British Crown dependencies, but neither is part of the United Kingdom. They have been part of the Duchy of Normandy since the 10th century and Queen Elizabeth II is often referred to by her traditional and conventional title of Duke of Normandy. However, pursuant to the Treaty of Paris (1259) she is not the Duke in a constitutional capacity and instead governs in her right as Queen. This notwithstanding, it is a matter of local pride for monarchists to treat the situation otherwise: the Loyal Toast at formal dinners is to 'The Queen, our Duke', rather than 'Her Majesty, the Queen' as in the UK.

Under the Interpretation Act 1978, the Channel Islands are deemed to be part of the British Islands, not to be confused with the British Isles. :)

Steve
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 01:07:50 PM »
While we are on the subject, did you know that Queen Elizabeth II is actually Head of State for sixteen different states. They are: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Belize, Antigua and Barbuda, and Saint Kitts and Nevis. She is also Head of the Commonwealth, Supreme Governor of the Church of England, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, and Paramount Chief of Fiji. I am sure the last one is the one she likes best :)

Steve
 

Offline Doug Olchefske

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 04:16:04 PM »
So, let's get this straight.  When the lady from (over 'ome) is about to
lose her virtue to some awful wog in a distant part of the Empire, she
should not actually "think of England" as is often stated (incorrectly and
insultingly to some)  but in fact, should "think of The United Kingdom of
Great Britian and Northern Ireland and Alderney but not Mann, and Certain of
the Shetlands, Hebrides, but not Skye (because Johnny has lost his trews and
things are bad enough without thinking of that too) but including Calais and
Bermuda, and other Realms and Territories at Her Majesty's Pleasure?"    I
can see the value in that.  By the time she gets it all figured out, the wog
has come and gone and she can go about her business.

<shamelessly stolen from somewhere>
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 02:52:35 AM »
Kurt,
Looking at the Reichraummarineschiffbauart I'm a tad confused about their fighter and AMM designs.

Making one fighter with only a search sensor may be sensible for pure search tasks, the arguements can go a lot of directions there.  The attack fighters; however, have no search sensor, and an extremely long range fire control.  But only against ships, against other fighters its range is largely crippled and against missiles basically non-existant.  More sensible would be to give them a sensor and firecontrol range of about 3-5 million km (double or tripple the resolution 1 range of the AMM sensor/fire control) and give the carrier very long range sensors.  Not giving the fighters their own sensor system is a dubious mass saving to me, but I frankly admit that is a personal taste.  But a size 1 or size 0.5 fire control plus search sensor would fit on those birds, best with a resolution of around 10-15.   As for their box launcher I would think a size two missile or a size three one would be better (5 or 3 missiles respectively), and make the missile more like a torpedo...big warhead, high speed, limited endurance, good manuever rating.  You could also make a 2 stage design with a second stage that carries AMMs design to allow them to deploy in a "thicken the defences" mode or even better to engage other fighters.

The AMM designs also makes very little sense it has no manueverability and 39 min of endurance, yet the AMM sensors have only a 1.7m km range.  So you only need 2-5 min at most endurance, the rest can go into manueverability.  Even as a dual mode missile is 75m km range necessary?

Lastly none of the warships carry EM sensors...why not?  This probably goes back to my personal taste but sensors both passive and active are a key to victory generally.  Win the sensor game and the fight is half done.  "Scouting and Counter Scouting" in naval speak.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 03:23:08 PM »
Quote from: "Paul M"
Kurt,
Looking at the Reichraummarineschiffbauart I'm a tad confused about their fighter and AMM designs.

I'll address your specific points below, but the general answer to most everything will be to remember that 1 - these are the Reich's first attempt to create a fighter, and 2 - this is really my first attempt to create a fighter using this version of Aurora, so the result was intentially clumsy, as it probably would have been in real life.

Quote from: "Paul M"
Making one fighter with only a search sensor may be sensible for pure search tasks, the arguements can go a lot of directions there.  The attack fighters; however, have no search sensor, and an extremely long range fire control.  But only against ships, against other fighters its range is largely crippled and against missiles basically non-existant.  More sensible would be to give them a sensor and firecontrol range of about 3-5 million km (double or tripple the resolution 1 range of the AMM sensor/fire control) and give the carrier very long range sensors.  Not giving the fighters their own sensor system is a dubious mass saving to me, but I frankly admit that is a personal taste.  But a size 1 or size 0.5 fire control plus search sensor would fit on those birds, best with a resolution of around 10-15.

To be honest, this is the design decision that I was most uncomfortable with.  And the inadequacy most likely to be addressed in the Mk II version of the fighter, whenever it might be produced.  As noted above, the Reich, and I, are still feeling our way towards a realistic fighter deployment strategy and, linked to that, the best design to match that strategy.  

Quote from: "Paul M"
As for their box launcher I would think a size two missile or a size three one would be better (5 or 3 missiles respectively), and make the missile more like a torpedo...big warhead, high speed, limited endurance, good manuever rating.  You could also make a 2 stage design with a second stage that carries AMMs design to allow them to deploy in a "thicken the defences" mode or even better to engage other fighters.

The Reich is very concerned about salvo sizes.  While larger missiles would be better all-around, as you note above, the fighters would be able to carry fewer, and thus would be much more vulnerable to point defense interception.  Launching larger numbers of smaller, cheaper missiles makes it more likely that they will overwhelm point defense and get some hits, which, even if they are individually devastating, will at least do some damage, which the bigger missiles might not if they don't overwhelm point defense and get destroyed short of the target.  

Quote from: "Paul M"
The AMM designs also makes very little sense it has no manueverability and 39 min of endurance, yet the AMM sensors have only a 1.7m km range.  So you only need 2-5 min at most endurance, the rest can go into manueverability.  Even as a dual mode missile is 75m km range necessary?

This one is easy, and not my fault  :D .  The 6P campaign was created with Aurora v 3.11, which means that the missile design sequence is different than 4.0b's.  Specifically, you can't specify the amount of fuel, all you can do is decide to devote either 0 missile size points (MSP's) to fuel, or increments of a quarter point to fuel.  The result is one of the reasons Steve made the changes that he did for 4.0b, because in small 1 space anti-missiles you have no choice but to devote a full quarter of the available space to fuel, giving you a totally ridiculous flight time and range.  

Quote from: "Paul M"
Lastly none of the warships carry EM sensors...why not?  This probably goes back to my personal taste but sensors both passive and active are a key to victory generally.  Win the sensor game and the fight is half done.  "Scouting and Counter Scouting" in naval speak.

That is a hold-over from the earlier days of the Raumarine, when it was only intended to act in the inner solar system, usually under cover of the planet-bound sensor network on Earth.  It has always been their intention to remedy this weakness, but this intention has been caught up in the realities of other demands on R&D and construction resources.  

Kurt
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 07:53:42 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
It has always been their intention to remedy this weakness, but this intention has been caught up in the realities of other demands on R&D and construction resources.

This is one of the things that I really like about Aurora (and that I believe is Working As Intended) - the fact that ship designs have interesting little warts that result from the burden of history and of the perpetual "yes, yes, we need to research that, but this other thing is higher priority at the minute" - I think it nails real life spot-on.

John
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2009, 02:41:17 AM »
I'm not an expert either, and the whole "it's on the list but, well, it will take a few years before it is at the top of the list" is very clearly Aurora.  The AMM is now very clear, that was a very good change in the game mechanics frankly.  It also kyboshes the "torpedo" suggestion.  Though you should have intervened and called the class "Graff Zeplin." *laughs*  I'm curious to see how the fighters work out.  Just consider my comments a report to the Reichraummarinebauabtilung from an independant assesment board.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 08:50:21 AM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
<snip>
Quote from: "Paul M"
Making one fighter with only a search sensor may be sensible for pure search tasks, the arguements can go a lot of directions there.  The attack fighters; however, have no search sensor, and an extremely long range fire control.  But only against ships, against other fighters its range is largely crippled and against missiles basically non-existant.  More sensible would be to give them a sensor and firecontrol range of about 3-5 million km (double or tripple the resolution 1 range of the AMM sensor/fire control) and give the carrier very long range sensors.  Not giving the fighters their own sensor system is a dubious mass saving to me, but I frankly admit that is a personal taste.  But a size 1 or size 0.5 fire control plus search sensor would fit on those birds, best with a resolution of around 10-15.

To be honest, this is the design decision that I was most uncomfortable with.  And the inadequacy most likely to be addressed in the Mk II version of the fighter, whenever it might be produced.  As noted above, the Reich, and I, are still feeling our way towards a realistic fighter deployment strategy and, linked to that, the best design to match that strategy.  
<snip>

I've approached this with several different methods.  A jack-of-all-trades modelled on the mission set of current F15's (strike/air superiority/recon) tends to leave me with fighter that would be better built as a gunboat.  It's usually slow, by fighter standards, and a relatively easy target for dedicated anti-fighter designs.

The mix that has worked best for me is a dedicated strike platform, a dedicated sensor platform, and a dedicated CSP platform.  The strike and sensor platforms follow a similiar approach what Kurt has posted.  The CSP platform is optimized for interdicting missiles and is capable of anti--fighter, usually gauss cannon's with as high a rof as I can afford to research (usually 3).  The CSP should have both short range active as well as the neccassary fire control since it may have to operate seperate from the strike/sensor package.

Organization is usually 1 CSP for every 2 or 3 strike and 1 sensor to each strike squadron.  I've also deployed fighters configured for recon from fleet scouts.

Most of this is from what I've learned with versions earlier that 4 though.  In those I've modified the DB with GC's no larger than 1hs and faster turret tracking speeds.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 02:01:24 PM »
I don't have any current fighter designs in my game yet, but I usually build a 350-500 ton "bomber" armed with missiles as a strike platform, a 250-400 ton beam/gc armed CSP and usually some sort of recon/sensor scout platform. I keep the bombers (with a couple recon birds) as separate flights from the CSP.

My doctrine is usually to hold the CSP birds back with the fleet to provide anti-fighter/missile defense, and the strike birds go forth and "touch" the enemy.

Offline Paul M

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2009, 07:37:04 AM »
Looking at the sensor/missile fire control designer, 75 tons seems to give you a 1 HS Resolution 10 search sensor with a range of a few million km and a fire control system with twice that range from a 0.5 HS system.  Sufficient so that you can engage other fighters at 0.5-1 million km, far outside any beam armed fighters range.

I don't have a problem with a dedicated sesnor platform, I just don't see what the point of giving a ship weapons but no way to independantly find it's targets.  Relying on a sensor fighter just begs to ask what happens when they are killed.  I'm not even sure mechanics wise what happens.  It is just a dubious mass saving to me.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2009, 08:46:28 AM »
Quote from: "Paul M"
Looking at the sensor/missile fire control designer, 75 tons seems to give you a 1 HS Resolution 10 search sensor with a range of a few million km and a fire control system with twice that range from a 0.5 HS system.  Sufficient so that you can engage other fighters at 0.5-1 million km, far outside any beam armed fighters range.

I don't have a problem with a dedicated sesnor platform, I just don't see what the point of giving a ship weapons but no way to independantly find it's targets.  Relying on a sensor fighter just begs to ask what happens when they are killed.  I'm not even sure mechanics wise what happens.  It is just a dubious mass saving to me.

This is gaming it a bit, but consider...  

If the missiles have thier own sensor package, they can be launched at a waypoint and allowed to aquire thier own targeting.  No active sensor required on the launch platform.  

No my usual approach.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 10:12:53 AM »
While I haven´t build any fighters yet, I guess I will approach it similar to how I approach it for FACs

Strike FACs won´t have any active sensors. Each Squadron consists of 6 strike FACs and 2 Sensor FACs.
This being said, those Sensor FACs are only there as a backup or if I am forced to use them independently. SPO will be to attach the FACs to a carrier squadron which will have a scout or two with realy realy long range actives that will be used to light up the enemy, so the FACs can stay out of detection range as much as possible and the Sensor FACs don´t have to go active and make the enemy aware of their approach.

As I see it, the main benefit of using FACs (or fighters, for that matter) is that it is extremely costly to build ships with long ranged actives able to see them outside of their combat range (for missile armed ones, that is). So going active with them is a big No No.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 12:44:08 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Quote from: "Kurt"
It has always been their intention to remedy this weakness, but this intention has been caught up in the realities of other demands on R&D and construction resources.

This is one of the things that I really like about Aurora (and that I believe is Working As Intended) - the fact that ship designs have interesting little warts that result from the burden of history and of the perpetual "yes, yes, we need to research that, but this other thing is higher priority at the minute" - I think it nails real life spot-on.

John

That was my thought as well.  It has the "feel" of reality about it.  

Kurt
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2009, 12:48:53 PM »
Quote from: "Paul M"
I'm not an expert either, and the whole "it's on the list but, well, it will take a few years before it is at the top of the list" is very clearly Aurora.  The AMM is now very clear, that was a very good change in the game mechanics frankly.  It also kyboshes the "torpedo" suggestion.  Though you should have intervened and called the class "Graff Zeplin." *laughs*  I'm curious to see how the fighters work out.  Just consider my comments a report to the Reichraummarinebauabtilung from an independant assesment board.

 :D  Consider the report submitted.  

I was very unsatisfied with the missile design sequence as it stood in v3.11, as it forced bad designs at the small end of the missile size spectrum.  I wasn't the only one, and Steve did very well in redesigning the missile design sequence as a whole.  

Just a note, v3.11 contains a bug that allows 0 size warhead missiles to successfully destroy other missiles, so some of my races have anti-missiles with no warhead.  When this bug was discovered, I considered requiring all races to have some sort of warhead on their anti-missiles, to make it fair and simulate the way Aurora was intended to work, however, after some thought, I decided to allow 0 size warheads.  Such missiles cannot be used for anything but missile-interception, while anti-missiles with a warhead of 1 point can be used offensively as well.  

Kurt
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Solar Fleet Deployments as of 2036 (35)
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2009, 12:51:41 PM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Quote from: "Kurt"
<snip>
Quote from: "Paul M"
Making one fighter with only a search sensor may be sensible for pure search tasks, the arguements can go a lot of directions there.  The attack fighters; however, have no search sensor, and an extremely long range fire control.  But only against ships, against other fighters its range is largely crippled and against missiles basically non-existant.  More sensible would be to give them a sensor and firecontrol range of about 3-5 million km (double or tripple the resolution 1 range of the AMM sensor/fire control) and give the carrier very long range sensors.  Not giving the fighters their own sensor system is a dubious mass saving to me, but I frankly admit that is a personal taste.  But a size 1 or size 0.5 fire control plus search sensor would fit on those birds, best with a resolution of around 10-15.

To be honest, this is the design decision that I was most uncomfortable with.  And the inadequacy most likely to be addressed in the Mk II version of the fighter, whenever it might be produced.  As noted above, the Reich, and I, are still feeling our way towards a realistic fighter deployment strategy and, linked to that, the best design to match that strategy.  
<snip>

I've approached this with several different methods.  A jack-of-all-trades modelled on the mission set of current F15's (strike/air superiority/recon) tends to leave me with fighter that would be better built as a gunboat.  It's usually slow, by fighter standards, and a relatively easy target for dedicated anti-fighter designs.

The mix that has worked best for me is a dedicated strike platform, a dedicated sensor platform, and a dedicated CSP platform.  The strike and sensor platforms follow a similiar approach what Kurt has posted.  The CSP platform is optimized for interdicting missiles and is capable of anti--fighter, usually gauss cannon's with as high a rof as I can afford to research (usually 3).  The CSP should have both short range active as well as the neccassary fire control since it may have to operate seperate from the strike/sensor package.

Organization is usually 1 CSP for every 2 or 3 strike and 1 sensor to each strike squadron.  I've also deployed fighters configured for recon from fleet scouts.

Most of this is from what I've learned with versions earlier that 4 though.  In those I've modified the DB with GC's no larger than 1hs and faster turret tracking speeds.

I had a very hard time fitting everything I wanted into my fighter design and still keeping it small enough to maintain the speed I wanted.  Which, of course, was why I left out even basic sensors on the attack design.  This was really my first operational fighter design, though, as I really haven't used them in other games.  I expect to learn a lot as they come into more common use in the campaign.

Kurt