Author Topic: Support of formation for ground combat...  (Read 2536 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB (OP)

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Support of formation for ground combat...
« on: May 09, 2020, 07:57:37 PM »
I do have some strange issues with setting support for units in the ground hierarchy.

I have a Home-guard battalion with the Company as the smallest front line element. It look like this...

Battalion HQ (HQ size 13000)
 - Rifle Company (HQ size 3000)
 - Rifle Company (HQ size 3000)
 - Rifle Company (HQ size 3000)
 - Battalion Support Element (HQ size 1000)
 - Battalion Support Element (HQ size 1000)
 - Battalion Support Element (HQ size 1000)

The problem is setting up the support of these... as the companies have light bombardment weapons they all set up a support relationship with each other (I suppose that will work?!?)

The problem is setting up the elements in support of the companies who are in support line with Medium-bombardment weapons... if you drag and drop them at the company they get attached and there are no way to force them to support. I can get around this by dragging in one of the companies HQ element of size 3000 into the "Battalio Support Element" formation... THEN I can support a company and move that element back to the Company again.

I was hoping I could like hit ESC and perhaps force a support relationship rather than attach the unit.

Do anyone know if this is suppose to be this way... is a bug... or just a quirk of how the game works?!?

In any way it is a bit odd behaviour of the system.

You have the same problem when you attach artillery batteries to higher formations such as regiment and division and tries to support further down the chain if their individual HQs are less than the front-line formation.

In my opinion this support relationship should not target individual front line formations but the be applied automatically to all front line formations in whatever unit you support that is below them in the hierarchy. During combat they are just randomly applied to an eligible front-line unit. Then you just would have to point the regimental artillery to a battalion HQ and that artillery would then support a random front-line company in that battalion. This would be so much simpler and more straight forward. It also would require much less micromanagement during actual combat too.
 

Offline Pedroig

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2020, 08:34:28 PM »
If I'm understanding you correctly.  The "misunderstanding" or "problem" is as follows:

A Battalion will have three companies.  These companies need to be designated as Front Line Attack, Front Line Defense (Default), Support, or Rear Echelon.  One of these companies can support another in a couple of ways.  First, you can simply "drag connect" them.  Second you can designate one as support, it does not need to specify an individual company, it will simply support one of the other companies randomly. 

Now you have the fire support elements as well.  These as well can be designated in several different ways, but let's just assume they are support.  If so, you really don't need to do anything, they will support another element in their level or lower just being designating them as Support.  If you drag a lower level of HQ onto a higher level, it will get put under the higher level.  So the workarounds are not ideal.

1.  Make a single support element either within the Battalion HQ structure or on its own, thus only able to support one of the Companies.  (The way the mechanics are set-up all battalion level assets should be in the Battalion HQ formation)
2.  Grow the support elements HQ to 3k so they are then "equal"  Don't have to actually put 3k in it, but the HQ needs to match up.

In general I've found it most effective to simply do the following:
1.  For assaults, Assault Company designated as Front Line Attack, Supported by Maneuver Company designated Front Line Defense and Fire Support Company designated as Support.  This gives all the light bombardment from the Maneuver Company and Fire Support companies during the attack phase and the medium bombardment during the bombardment phase.
2.  For Defense, Front Line Defense supported by Support Company and Rear Echelon Company.
Attack formations are different than Defense formations.

Not ideal, but seems to get the job done.
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Offline Jorgen_CAB (OP)

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2020, 03:38:04 AM »
If I'm understanding you correctly.  The "misunderstanding" or "problem" is as follows:

A Battalion will have three companies.  These companies need to be designated as Front Line Attack, Front Line Defense (Default), Support, or Rear Echelon.  One of these companies can support another in a couple of ways.  First, you can simply "drag connect" them.  Second you can designate one as support, it does not need to specify an individual company, it will simply support one of the other companies randomly. 

Now you have the fire support elements as well.  These as well can be designated in several different ways, but let's just assume they are support.  If so, you really don't need to do anything, they will support another element in their level or lower just being designating them as Support.  If you drag a lower level of HQ onto a higher level, it will get put under the higher level.  So the workarounds are not ideal.

1.  Make a single support element either within the Battalion HQ structure or on its own, thus only able to support one of the Companies.  (The way the mechanics are set-up all battalion level assets should be in the Battalion HQ formation)
2.  Grow the support elements HQ to 3k so they are then "equal"  Don't have to actually put 3k in it, but the HQ needs to match up.

In general I've found it most effective to simply do the following:
1.  For assaults, Assault Company designated as Front Line Attack, Supported by Maneuver Company designated Front Line Defense and Fire Support Company designated as Support.  This gives all the light bombardment from the Maneuver Company and Fire Support companies during the attack phase and the medium bombardment during the bombardment phase.
2.  For Defense, Front Line Defense supported by Support Company and Rear Echelon Company.
Attack formations are different than Defense formations.

Not ideal, but seems to get the job done.

It probably is more "efficient" to put all support into ONE company in each battalion as you describe... even if it is not set in assault mode or not.

Although this goes against my RP feeling and even if it is less efficient I would like to set it up the way I have as I want each company to have it's own internal light-bombardment and support element to support the front line companies more or less equally.

It becomes a bit gamey and less role-play if done in the way you describe... that is probably my biggest problem.  :(
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2020, 05:54:58 AM »
In all honesty the way heavy weapons are attached in a battalion or for that matter a company are to the HQ.  The formation leader assigns those to his companies/platoons as they see fit.  A large part of the COs job is to properly assign those to tasks. 

Using a commonwealth WW2 infantry battalion as an example:

The Battalion has an HQ and 4 companies.  Each company has a Anti-tank rifle and 2" mortar assigned to the company commander (company HQ).  The HQ for the battalion has: an engineer platoon, a carrier recon platoon, an AA platoon and a carrier platoon with mortars directly under it.

It isn't gamey in the slightest to assign these things to the formation HQ.  This trend goes up the line as well.  The Brigade has 9 AT guns assigned to it...the division HQ has engineers and recon assigned to it.  Corps have their own troops in the form of recon, engineering, AA and regular artillery/AT.   So is true with Army HQs.

In a battalion you would have all the battalion heavy weapons (more or less) at the finger tips of the battalion commander...even if the TO&E was not quite set up like that, it would happen.   The battalion CO is the one who would control those in the end.   The Russians in the past at least used to raid their divisions to create Corps level artillery reserves so the Corps commander could assign those to the focus as another example.

Gamey it is not...real militaries function like this.   Also having a battalion with 3 line infantry and 1 heavy weapons company is also common as dirt so far as I'm aware.
   
 

Offline Pedroig

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2020, 07:07:58 AM »
The problem, Paul M, comes in the HQ formation itself.  Though the HQ element can be designated Avoid Combat the formation has to be designated one of four types:  Front Line Attack, Front Line Defense, Support, or Rear Echelon.  Putting the HQ formation on anything other than Support or Rear Echelon means they cannot/will not support the units under it.  And throwing direct fire weapon assets into a Support or Rear Echelon formation will only engage when that formation is engaged by a direct fire formation (Front Line Attack which achieves breakthrough for example).

Here is an example of a both set ups I provided above, with the clarification that both work just fine.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10764.msg127310#msg127310
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Offline Jorgen_CAB (OP)

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2020, 07:58:37 AM »
In all honesty the way heavy weapons are attached in a battalion or for that matter a company are to the HQ.  The formation leader assigns those to his companies/platoons as they see fit.  A large part of the COs job is to properly assign those to tasks. 

Using a commonwealth WW2 infantry battalion as an example:

The Battalion has an HQ and 4 companies.  Each company has a Anti-tank rifle and 2" mortar assigned to the company commander (company HQ).  The HQ for the battalion has: an engineer platoon, a carrier recon platoon, an AA platoon and a carrier platoon with mortars directly under it.

It isn't gamey in the slightest to assign these things to the formation HQ.  This trend goes up the line as well.  The Brigade has 9 AT guns assigned to it...the division HQ has engineers and recon assigned to it.  Corps have their own troops in the form of recon, engineering, AA and regular artillery/AT.   So is true with Army HQs.

In a battalion you would have all the battalion heavy weapons (more or less) at the finger tips of the battalion commander...even if the TO&E was not quite set up like that, it would happen.   The battalion CO is the one who would control those in the end.   The Russians in the past at least used to raid their divisions to create Corps level artillery reserves so the Corps commander could assign those to the focus as another example.

Gamey it is not...real militaries function like this.   Also having a battalion with 3 line infantry and 1 heavy weapons company is also common as dirt so far as I'm aware.
 

And this is how I want it to work... I think that if you put artillery units in the Battalion HQ those should automatically be assigned to the individual companies in the combat phase... now I have to set a specific company to do that with.

This means that the best action is to always support ONE company in the battalion to increase the chance of breakthrough...

Say...

Battalion HQ (with medium-bombardment) in Support Line supporting 1st company

1st Company (300 infantry, 30 CAP, 20 LAV) (front-line attack or defence)
2nd/3rd Company (300 infantry, 40 LB) (Front-line defence) both support 1st company

If 1st company take casualties you can take infantry from 2nd/3rd company to reinforce it.

At regiment level you then have one artillery formation to further support one lead company in one battalion, you do the same at division but here you might divide it in three and support the same lead company as you supported in regiment level.

I still would like to have an easy option to force support a formation even if your HQ level is lower rather then attach... you can still do it... you just temporarily attach a bigger HQ to the formation and do the support and then move it back to where it was.

The reason why I had three elements is that they are sort of part of the HQ, they are just there to effectively support the whole company as the game simulate 8h combat rounds and it make very little sense that the battalion HQ only can support one specific company, then you have to reassign this as the combat goes along.

The mechanic feels a bit gamey in that sense.

I probably just think that we should put all support in the HQ just as you suggest and then it automatically support the companies in it.

With light-bombardment weapons we get into even more strange territory as you want one Company with no bombardment and then one with bombardment and one support the other... that is not really how a battalion or companies work. Light-bombardment weapons should support its own company or formation in the bombardment phase, more or less.
 

Offline Pedroig

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2020, 08:20:30 AM »
The Battalion HQ does support the Companies under it, just not all at once, the Light Bombardment units will support ONE company (seemingly randomly) and the Medium Bombardment units will support ONE (maybe the same, maybe a different) Company (once again seemingly randomly) OR they will counterbattery fire into the Support level of the enemy, and if there are Heavy+ Bombardment units they will do any of the above plus OR counterbattery fire into the Rear Echelon level of the enemy units.

The mechanics of the game do it quite organically, but at a level where we the players are in control of the planetary forces and are simply trusting the lower commanders to utilize their forces as best as they see fit for the situation on the portion of the battlefield they are engaged.
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Offline Jorgen_CAB (OP)

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2020, 09:40:31 AM »
The Battalion HQ does support the Companies under it, just not all at once, the Light Bombardment units will support ONE company (seemingly randomly) and the Medium Bombardment units will support ONE (maybe the same, maybe a different) Company (once again seemingly randomly) OR they will counterbattery fire into the Support level of the enemy, and if there are Heavy+ Bombardment units they will do any of the above plus OR counterbattery fire into the Rear Echelon level of the enemy units.

The mechanics of the game do it quite organically, but at a level where we the players are in control of the planetary forces and are simply trusting the lower commanders to utilize their forces as best as they see fit for the situation on the portion of the battlefield they are engaged.

I might then completely misunderstand how it work... why do I then choose to specify the support of the formation of they still fire randomly... or do you mean they fire randomly if I don't specify who they support?

Here is an example...

Note: Not all formation are set the the proper position in this picture though...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 09:45:37 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2020, 11:40:23 AM »
Aurora prefers 'assign as subformation' over 'support' so if your bombardment unit is small enough to fit within the target unit's HQ, it will join rather than support.  That's just the way Aurora works (for now).

If you want to get around it, you basically have to enage in massive micromanagement or use bigger support units.
 
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Offline Pedroig

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2020, 01:55:34 PM »
The Battalion HQ does support the Companies under it, just not all at once, the Light Bombardment units will support ONE company (seemingly randomly) and the Medium Bombardment units will support ONE (maybe the same, maybe a different) Company (once again seemingly randomly) OR they will counterbattery fire into the Support level of the enemy, and if there are Heavy+ Bombardment units they will do any of the above plus OR counterbattery fire into the Rear Echelon level of the enemy units.

The mechanics of the game do it quite organically, but at a level where we the players are in control of the planetary forces and are simply trusting the lower commanders to utilize their forces as best as they see fit for the situation on the portion of the battlefield they are engaged.

I might then completely misunderstand how it work... why do I then choose to specify the support of the formation of they still fire randomly... or do you mean they fire randomly if I don't specify who they support?

Here is an example...

Note: Not all formation are set the the proper position in this picture though...

Your 1st Guard Regiment HQ would support a random unit beneath it if it was set to Support or Rear Echelon and it had Bombardment units in it (it is currently set to Front Line Defense).  Your Battalion HQ's you have assigned to a single company, so they only support that company. 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB (OP)

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2020, 05:23:09 PM »
The Battalion HQ does support the Companies under it, just not all at once, the Light Bombardment units will support ONE company (seemingly randomly) and the Medium Bombardment units will support ONE (maybe the same, maybe a different) Company (once again seemingly randomly) OR they will counterbattery fire into the Support level of the enemy, and if there are Heavy+ Bombardment units they will do any of the above plus OR counterbattery fire into the Rear Echelon level of the enemy units.

The mechanics of the game do it quite organically, but at a level where we the players are in control of the planetary forces and are simply trusting the lower commanders to utilize their forces as best as they see fit for the situation on the portion of the battlefield they are engaged.

I might then completely misunderstand how it work... why do I then choose to specify the support of the formation of they still fire randomly... or do you mean they fire randomly if I don't specify who they support?

Here is an example...

Note: Not all formation are set the the proper position in this picture though...

Your 1st Guard Regiment HQ would support a random unit beneath it if it was set to Support or Rear Echelon and it had Bombardment units in it (it is currently set to Front Line Defense).  Your Battalion HQ's you have assigned to a single company, so they only support that company.

Ok... so it does basically work like I wanted it to work... so I don't have to select which unit they support as they will do so randomly. I have not done any tests with ground combat and support so I did not know exactly how it worked and I have not reached any point to use ground troops in my test campaign either.

Although... on paper you would like to support as few units as possible to increase the chance of a breakthrough with that unit... but I guess that is a bit gamey for me to do anyway so I will not do that.

And... yes... as I noted in my post... I know some of those units in the Regiment HQ was not set to the correct positions. The regiment HQ also don't have any bombardment units as that is what the individual Artillery Battalions are for in this setup. This formation are basic planetary defence forces, not meant for attacking anything.
 

Offline Pedroig

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2020, 05:54:05 PM »
And they look like quite stout planetary defense forces, provided a "front" of equal size...
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Offline Jorgen_CAB (OP)

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2020, 06:46:50 PM »
And they look like quite stout planetary defense forces, provided a "front" of equal size...

Yeay... I think it is hard to know what is enough forces.. but Earth need to be protected. This is a 20% research (and 5% survey speed, 50% terraforming speed) conventional start and I have 10 regiments built now, that is about 2.5% of my wealth in maintenance cost per year, so not that expensive to be honest. The most expensive formation I have are my Construction Brigades who each are 25000 tons and stationed at Mercury to build low gravity infrastructure (as I only go with a 33% gravity tolerance).'

I don't even have heavy bombardment or AA yet so I have not bothered with divisional organisation yet, but that will come eventually I suppose.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 06:48:44 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Support of formation for ground combat...
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2020, 06:28:38 PM »
And they look like quite stout planetary defense forces, provided a "front" of equal size...

Yeay... I think it is hard to know what is enough forces.. but Earth need to be protected. This is a 20% research (and 5% survey speed, 50% terraforming speed) conventional start and I have 10 regiments built now, that is about 2.5% of my wealth in maintenance cost per year, so not that expensive to be honest. The most expensive formation I have are my Construction Brigades who each are 25000 tons and stationed at Mercury to build low gravity infrastructure (as I only go with a 33% gravity tolerance).'

I don't even have heavy bombardment or AA yet so I have not bothered with divisional organisation yet, but that will come eventually I suppose.

It certainly takes a while to get up to army level organization - I've only managed up to divisional with 0.5M ton size. Beyond that I would have crops and then armies. Eventually you get army groups.