fire&forget missiles

[GL (OP)]

So I've been trying to design an artillery ship that can enter a system, fire long range missiles at a waypoint and exit the system before the missiles hits.

The ship:

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Saphir M2 class Bombardment Cruiser      7 595 tons       177 Crew       3 217.6 BP       TCS 152    TH 144    EM 0
7900 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 2-34       Shields 0-0       HTK 55      Sensors 24/24/0/0      DCR 37      PPV 44.55
Maint Life 4.18 Years     MSP 2 052    AFR 60%    IFR 0.8%    1YR 188    5YR 2 827    Max Repair 1092.0 MSP
Magazine 297   
Capitaine de frégate    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Moteur de Saut M8k-13.5     Max Ship Size 8100 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Moteur à Fusion Interne M600 (2)    Power 1200    Fuel Use 58.46%    Signature 72.00    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 750 000 Litres    Range 30.4 billion km (44 days at full power)

Box Launcher-99 (3)     Missile Size: 99    Hangar Reload 497 minutes    MF Reload 82 hours
Système de guidage de bombardement 13 (1)     Range 1 017.4m km    Resolution 400
Missile à Longue Portée M2 (3)    Speed: 10 000 km/s    End: 1.2d     Range: 1 016.8m km    WH: 0    Size: 99    TH: 33/20/10

Radar Passif TH24 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
Radar Passif EM24 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
The BIIIG missile:

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Missile Size: 99.0 MSP  (247.50 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 10 000 km/s     Fuel: 26 750     1st Stage Flight Time: 28 hours    1st Stage Range: 1 014.9m km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 86 seconds    2nd Stage Range: 4 853.4k km
Cost Per Missile: 207.2932     Development Cost: 20 729
Second Stage: Missile à courte portée M2 x37
Second Stage Separation Range: 4 000 000 km
The missile separation occurs, I can now see the enemy ship with the second-stage missiles active sensors, the missiles reach the waypoint (and the enemy fleet) and ... nothing. They don't hit anything, they are not destroyed (well, not all them), they just sit at the waypoint for a while and disappear..

Am I missing something?

[Jorgen_CAB]

So I've been trying to design an artillery ship that can enter a system, fire long range missiles at a waypoint and exit the system before the missiles hits.

The ship:

Code: [Select]

Saphir M2 class Bombardment Cruiser      7 595 tons       177 Crew       3 217.6 BP       TCS 152    TH 144    EM 0
7900 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 2-34       Shields 0-0       HTK 55      Sensors 24/24/0/0      DCR 37      PPV 44.55
Maint Life 4.18 Years     MSP 2 052    AFR 60%    IFR 0.8%    1YR 188    5YR 2 827    Max Repair 1092.0 MSP
Magazine 297   
Capitaine de frégate    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Moteur de Saut M8k-13.5     Max Ship Size 8100 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Moteur à Fusion Interne M600 (2)    Power 1200    Fuel Use 58.46%    Signature 72.00    Explosion 15%
Fuel Capacity 750 000 Litres    Range 30.4 billion km (44 days at full power)

Box Launcher-99 (3)     Missile Size: 99    Hangar Reload 497 minutes    MF Reload 82 hours
Système de guidage de bombardement 13 (1)     Range 1 017.4m km    Resolution 400
Missile à Longue Portée M2 (3)    Speed: 10 000 km/s    End: 1.2d     Range: 1 016.8m km    WH: 0    Size: 99    TH: 33/20/10

Radar Passif TH24 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
Radar Passif EM24 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  38.7m km
The BIIIG missile:

Code: [Select]

Missile Size: 99.0 MSP  (247.50 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 10 000 km/s     Fuel: 26 750     1st Stage Flight Time: 28 hours    1st Stage Range: 1 014.9m km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 86 seconds    2nd Stage Range: 4 853.4k km
Cost Per Missile: 207.2932     Development Cost: 20 729
Second Stage: Missile à courte portée M2 x37
Second Stage Separation Range: 4 000 000 km
The missile separation occurs, I can now see the enemy ship with the second-stage missiles active sensors, the missiles reach the waypoint (and the enemy fleet) and ... nothing. They don't hit anything, they are not destroyed (well, not all them), they just sit at the waypoint for a while and disappear..

Am I missing something?

There might be a bug... but in VB6 you could stick the sensor on the first stage and that would remain active and guide any munition in it to the target. That way you don't need active on all the separate small missiles. This would be much like a mine.

But there can also be a bug or something Steve have not actually tested or coded yet.

[Conscript Gary]

Missiles with sensors don't seem to retarget as they did in VB6. It's something I've wanted to re-report for the current patch but didn't have a chance to. Minelaying is basically impossible at present, too.

[Paul M]

I could be very much out to lunch here but if you target the missiles on a waypoint then they should fly to the waypoint, and only once they arrive there should they look for other targets.  So it may well be they are working like they are supposed to.  The problem could be the waypoint is out of the missiles sensor range for the targets you want to hit. 

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

I could be very much out to lunch here but if you target the missiles on a waypoint then they should fly to the waypoint, and only once they arrive there should they look for other targets.  So it may well be they are working like they are supposed to.  The problem could be the waypoint is out of the missiles sensor range for the targets you want to hit.

They are supposed to, but it doesn't work.  There are several bug reports about it.

[GL (OP)]

I could be very much out to lunch here but if you target the missiles on a waypoint then they should fly to the waypoint, and only once they arrive there should they look for other targets.  So it may well be they are working like they are supposed to.  The problem could be the waypoint is out of the missiles sensor range for the targets you want to hit.

I don't think that's the problem, at least if I undertood you correctly.
I put the waypoint on top of the planet where the ships I wanted to hit were and made sure the sensor range was > to the range of the second stage, so the ships where in range of the sensors immediatly

[GL (OP)]

I could be very much out to lunch here but if you target the missiles on a waypoint then they should fly to the waypoint, and only once they arrive there should they look for other targets.  So it may well be they are working like they are supposed to.  The problem could be the waypoint is out of the missiles sensor range for the targets you want to hit.

They are supposed to, but it doesn't work.  There are several bug reports about it.

Ok, thanks.
Well, I'll have to overwhelm their PD the old fashioned way then, by bringing more guns 

[Michael Sandy]

One idea to play around with:

Once you have cloaked warships, it is possible to have really oversized fire controls, that allow you to target from a very long distance.  So you could have a class of ship with the cross section of a fighter, but with a 5-10 HS fire control, plus ECCM, that can hit from 500 million km+.

Then you just have semi-expendable forward observers, who illumine the target with active sensors, you fire your missiles so the first stage time on targets to its separation range.

Assuming you have enough forward observers separated out so you can keep an active sensor lock, the missiles should track and separate properly, and home in on the last known enemy location.

[Froggiest1982]

One idea to play around with:

Once you have cloaked warships, it is possible to have really oversized fire controls, that allow you to target from a very long distance.  So you could have a class of ship with the cross section of a fighter, but with a 5-10 HS fire control, plus ECCM, that can hit from 500 million km+.

Then you just have semi-expendable forward observers, who illumine the target with active sensors, you fire your missiles so the first stage time on targets to its separation range.

Assuming you have enough forward observers separated out so you can keep an active sensor lock, the missiles should track and separate properly, and home in on the last known enemy location.

Kind of.

What u trying to do requires more testing, so will be a long night. However I don't think in this particular case there is a bug (of course will put to testing).

I think you are approaching this the wrong way (more on this on the bottom). I also think if there is a waypoint and the missile is fired there, it detaches first stage at 4 whatever million km as you designed and it reaches the waypoint then it's job done and it disappears. WAI from my prospective. What would be interesting and I will test is this: what if you delete waypoint as soon as the second stage kicks in? This should force the algorytm to find a new target through the active sensor. Now if that doesn't work it means you have a sensor rerouting bug.

But, back on approaching it the wrong way.

You are in a position where you probably know where your enemy is, but what if you not sure? If you launch first the same missile design with a buoy instead of a warhead on the second stage then you have your targeting ready for u to shoot long distance. In this case you will be able to target the specific enemy ship. I would keep the active sensor on the missiles just to have a backup in case your buoy get destroyed but you could consider removing it to gain speed, range, agility...any of your liking. If you go for that you may want to deliver 2 or 3 buoys first.

[Froggiest1982]

What would be interesting and I will test is this: what if you delete waypoint as soon as the second stage kicks in? This should force the algorytm to find a new target through the active sensor. Now if that doesn't work it means you have a sensor rerouting bug.

If you launch first the same missile design with a buoy instead of a warhead on the second stage then you have your targeting ready for u to shoot long distance. In this case, you will be able to target the specific enemy ship. I would keep the active sensor on the missiles just to have a backup in case your buoy get destroyed but you could consider removing it to gain speed, range, agility...any of your liking. If you go for that you may want to deliver 2 or 3 buoys first.

So I tested the above and it doesn't work. You'll have to do it long range but still in the range of your Missile Fire Control and shoot directly at your target using the Active Sensor of the Buoy. When it doesn't work I meant missiles get fired fly to Waypoint correctly launch the second stage but then don't reroute to target but still going towards the Waypoint even after have cancelled it.

You can still invest in a very long-range MFC, the problem is the weight. I've compensated using box launchers at max. The other problem is the speed, you need to ensure your last stage is over 20,000 or everything will be shot down. I have also used the Sync Fire to make my salvos bigger and get more chances to penetrate PD.

For the sake of the test I capped the ships at 10,000 Tons, 6 months deployment, no jump engines, maintenance and fuel realistic (3 years, 160 days @2,000km/s). Tier 3 techs, Ion Engines. I think it is pretty solid as you cannot use these ships earlier.

I fired at 585mkm in my test game, however, the buoy has been fired at 5b km distance.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I am sure this is WAI as I can see how it could be cheating and not realistic otherwise, ff this would have worked, the MFC would have been pretty much useless.