Critique this design please

[Buaman22 (OP)]

Ok, I'm still trying to get used to the mechanics of the game, so point out the obvious flaws that I'm not picking up

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Zanabazar class Strike Cruiser    7600 tons     773 Crew     1096.2 BP      TCS 38  TH 1020  EM 0
6710 km/s     Armour 3-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 15/15/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 115%    IFR: 1.6%    Maintenance Capacity 361 MSP

Ion Engine (17)    Power 60    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 47.4 billion km   (81 days at full power)

Particle Torpedo Launcher (2)    Range 200,000km     TS: 6710 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15        4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control  (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3200 km/s     51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (2)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Thermal Sensor TH15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normal
This ship kinda follows a 'submarine'/torpedo boat type of ship design.  Since the Brits have the range advantage a Mongol ship has to be either faster, stealthier, or in this case, try to be both.  I get the feeling I fail on both accounts w/ this design, though her Targeting Cross-Section is pretty small, at least compared to the Royal Sovereign, but it doesn't even try to hide.

As I wrote that out I kinda rethought the whole idea and came up with a more 'submarine' style vessel.

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Mughal class Scout Cruiser    4400 tons     471 Crew     691 BP      TCS 22  TH 360  EM 0
4090 km/s     Armour 3-23     Shields 0-0     Sensors 15/15/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 77%    IFR: 1.1%    Maintenance Capacity 196 MSP

Ion Engine (6)    Power 60    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 40.9 billion km   (115 days at full power)

Particle Torpedo Launcher (2)    Range 200,000km     TS: 4090 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15        4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control  (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3200 km/s     51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (2)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

FA Active Search Sensor (1)     GPS 640     Range 6.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normal
The Mughal is a lot slower, though still marginally quicker than the British ships and a lot stealthier with a TCS of 22 and a TH of 360.  

I guess the big question is, how close can one of these suckers get to a British fleet before it's spotted, how close can it get before the Brits can start hitting it, and how close does it need to be before it can start hitting them?  Oh, and can a ship run at less than full power to decrease its thermal signature?

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[Erik L]

Ok, I'm still trying to get used to the mechanics of the game, so point out the obvious flaws that I'm not picking up

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Zanabazar class Strike Cruiser    7600 tons     773 Crew     1096.2 BP      TCS 38  TH 1020  EM 0
6710 km/s     Armour 3-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 15/15/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 115%    IFR: 1.6%    Maintenance Capacity 361 MSP

Ion Engine (17)    Power 60    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 47.4 billion km   (81 days at full power)

Particle Torpedo Launcher (2)    Range 200,000km     TS: 6710 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15        4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control  (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3200 km/s     51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (2)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Thermal Sensor TH15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normal
This ship kinda follows a 'submarine'/torpedo boat type of ship design.  Since the Brits have the range advantage a Mongol ship has to be either faster, stealthier, or in this case, try to be both.  I get the feeling I fail on both accounts w/ this design, though her Targeting Cross-Section is pretty small, at least compared to the Royal Sovereign, but it doesn't even try to hide.

No active sensors and no shields. Your fire control is not quite up to the speed it should be. Ideally, you'd want to have it close to 6700 in this case.

As I wrote that out I kinda rethought the whole idea and came up with a more 'submarine' style vessel.

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Mughal class Scout Cruiser    4400 tons     471 Crew     691 BP      TCS 22  TH 360  EM 0
4090 km/s     Armour 3-23     Shields 0-0     Sensors 15/15/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 14
Annual Failure Rate: 77%    IFR: 1.1%    Maintenance Capacity 196 MSP

Ion Engine (6)    Power 60    Efficiency 1.00    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 40.9 billion km   (115 days at full power)

Particle Torpedo Launcher (2)    Range 200,000km     TS: 4090 km/s     Power 10-4    ROF 15        4 4 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torpedo Fire Control  (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 3200 km/s     51 39 26 14 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (2)     Total Power Output 9    Armour 0    Exp 5%

FA Active Search Sensor (1)     GPS 640     Range 6.4m km    Resolution 40
Thermal Sensor TH15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Electromagnetic Sensor EM15 (1)     Sensitivity 15     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  15m km
Cloaking Device: Class cross-section reduced to 25% of normal
The Mughal is a lot slower, though still marginally quicker than the British ships and a lot stealthier with a TCS of 22 and a TH of 360.  

I guess the big question is, how close can one of these suckers get to a British fleet before it's spotted, how close can it get before the Brits can start hitting it, and how close does it need to be before it can start hitting them?  Oh, and can a ship run at less than full power to decrease its thermal signature?

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Again, no shields. And it's blind (well, both are) at long ranges. 15m km is a pretty close distance really. You might consider pushing the size on the passives a bit higher.

[Buaman22 (OP)]

ok, I think I know where I need to go to fix the sensors.

In the Preservation 2 campaign, I don't think the Mongols have shields, if so, where do I go to add them.

And how close can one of those ships get before they can be detected and be fired upon

[mavikfelna]

You don't really want shields on this unit, as it will ruin it's stealth signature. It does need more armor, in either variety.

Also, you only need one reactor. You're power required PER IMPULSE is only 4. It takes you 15 seconds to recharge because you need 10 power but you can only charge 4 per turn.

You're maintenance is really low on these too. If they operate close to a maintenance base then they're ok, but once they try and deploy for any amount of time they're going to have serious failures and burn through their maintenance funds quickly.

If you can get your tracking speed up around 4k that would be better.

And an active sensor would be a good idea but I don't think an absolute requirement, since it will give you away as soon as you turn it on.

Hope that helps a little.
--Mav

[Hawkeye]

Hi there, I?m also pretty new to the game, but will give my opinion anyway

what I usualy do re. active sensors:

I will give any warship actives with at least 2 to 3 times the range of its weapons (for Non-Missile-designs) as backup.
Then I will have one or two fleet scouts (perhaps paired with an escort or two) with actives with twice the range of my longest range missile on the theory, that it can stay completely out of enemy weapon range while lighting up targets for my warships. That way, they won?t have to go active and give themself away.

Of course, this means my ships are not intendet to work alone, but, IMO, warships should always work in squadrons anyway.

There are exceptions, Escorts designed for convoy duty, for example, will have long range actives, but the regular line units can get away with that, I think.


Re. shields:
I never realized shields would give ships away, but now that I think about it, it makes sense. I will still mount at least some shields on any warship, simply to have some defense against Mesons, which, as I understand it, can bypass armor.

I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"

[Erik L]

You don't really want shields on this unit, as it will ruin it's stealth signature. It does need more armor, in either variety.

Also, you only need one reactor. You're power required PER IMPULSE is only 4. It takes you 15 seconds to recharge because you need 10 power but you can only charge 4 per turn.

You're maintenance is really low on these too. If they operate close to a maintenance base then they're ok, but once they try and deploy for any amount of time they're going to have serious failures and burn through their maintenance funds quickly.

If you can get your tracking speed up around 4k that would be better.

And an active sensor would be a good idea but I don't think an absolute requirement, since it will give you away as soon as you turn it on.

Hope that helps a little.
--Mav

He's got 2 launchers, that's 8 power. And yeah, the maintenance is a bit low.

If he needs to go active, then shields would be a good thing. Not sure if you can target on just passives.

As for adding shield tech, go to the Research tab of the Economics window. You should see something like Alpha Shields, and Shield Recharge Rate. Add those, and then design a shield. Though I feel like I'm forgetting a component.

[Charlie Beeler]

You can target with passives, but you really have to be close.  Once you do the target will go scan active and then your toast.  

Two things will give you away on EM,  active sensors and shields.  Thermal is engine output.  

With a thermal signiture of over 1000 the Zanbazar  will most likely be detected with passives anyway.  A heavy investment in thermal reduction and better cloaking might let it get close enough for a first shot...maybe.  

I'd upgrade to capacitor 5 to let these torps cycle in 10 instead of 15 and adjust reactors accordingly.  Use two smaller reactors so that a single doesn't completely take out your ability to fire.  

I agree that the passives on these ships need to be larger.  something that can detect a signature 500 at 50-100m km would not be out of line with the stated mission.  

Even with those changes these ships are of limited utility.  They are point blank sluggers.

[Buaman22 (OP)]

Good to know, I'm still getting used to the universe.

Obviously I'm going to want to get new tech, this was all done with the default tech that was researched.

With the Brits having Royal Sovereigns with such long range missles, it means you either have to develop longer range missiles, or survive long enough to use a different kind of weapon.  Given that, what would be a good hard hitting weapon to use on either of these ships?  Plasma Carronades?  Laser's?

I'd like for 2 or 3 of these 2nd type of ship to be able to take out a battleship in a fairly short amount of time.  I'm guessing that these ships wouldn't actually be able to go undetected given thermal signatures and sensors?

[Erik L]

Lasers are probably your best bet for a stand-off weapon (besides missiles). And in a pinch, the lasers can act as point-defense.

Everything else is big punch at low range.

[Charles Fox]

As an aside, looking at the Mongol tech, they already have missiles and fire control that out ranges the British. Couldn't you strap that off the shelf technology to a ship and run with it? They're bigger that the British missiles, so you'd get a smaller salvo but the Brits haven't invented point defense yet so that doesn't matter.

[Charlie Beeler]

As an aside, looking at the Mongol tech, they already have missiles and fire control that out ranges the British. Couldn't you strap that off the shelf technology to a ship and run with it? They're bigger that the British missiles, so you'd get a smaller salvo but the Brits haven't invented point defense yet so that doesn't matter.

Are you asking if missiles can be externally mounted?  If so, hardpoints have not been introduced to Aurora....yet.  

Unlike Starfire and other games, point defense is not a seperate technology the researched and deployed.  It's more an additional mode assignment that any weapon system/fire control can be assigned.  With the caviot that a purposed designed weapon system combined with a purposed designed fire control is a superior choice for the function.

[Buaman22 (OP)]

I don't think he was thinking of external mounting, he was just saying make a very simple ship that can mount the Mongol's current missile launcher.  Right now that system is used on a immobile PDC.

My thinking in these designs was to take advantage of cloaking/ECM and take out a missile armed ship from medium range with current or soon to be developed tech.  I just don't like the trend of making longer and longer range missiles.  The second design is basically an attempt to make a submarine and that's the design philosophy I'm going with.

[Charles Fox]

I don't think he was thinking of external mounting, he was just saying make a very simple ship that can mount the Mongol's current missile launcher.  Right now that system is used on a immobile PDC.

My thinking in these designs was to take advantage of cloaking/ECM and take out a missile armed ship from medium range with current or soon to be developed tech.  I just don't like the trend of making longer and longer range missiles.  The second design is basically an attempt to make a submarine and that's the design philosophy I'm going with.

Yep, that's what I meant to say. Going with the missiles would've been my solution to the problem, but I feel like your idea fits better with the doctrine the Mongols established earlier in scenario. Changing over from torpedoes to missiles as your primary weapons system would mean a total tactical and strategic overhaul that would take more time than they've had.

[MWadwell]

I don't think he was thinking of external mounting, he was just saying make a very simple ship that can mount the Mongol's current missile launcher.  Right now that system is used on a immobile PDC.

My thinking in these designs was to take advantage of cloaking/ECM and take out a missile armed ship from medium range with current or soon to be developed tech.  I just don't like the trend of making longer and longer range missiles.  The second design is basically an attempt to make a submarine and that's the design philosophy I'm going with.

The problem with the "submarine" design senario, is that if it is detected while it is still out of range of it's weapons, it becomes easy to kill.

For example, using this sensor drone (which uses the current British technology) the british sensor envelope can be extended to nearly 81 million km's, and can detect and target ships long before the "stealthy" ship gets within range of its weapons:

Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 9000 km/s    Endurance: 149 minutes   Range: 80.4m km
Active Sensor Strength: 2.1    Resolution: 20    Maximum Range: 420,000 km    
Cost Per Missile: 2.45
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 90%   3k km/s 30%   5k km/s 18%   10k km/s 9%
Materials Required:    2.1x Uridium   0.35x Gallicite   Fuel x3125

Development Cost for Project: 245RP

Just a note on stealth, it is dependant on ship speed - so a small ship moving slowly is very hard to detect. However this works both ways - as if a British BB is moving slowly, it could creep into range of the planet, and (using the recon drone) target Mongol ships/PDC's without having to risk enemy fire. (And if the british missiles use a waypoint off to the side, if the Mongols try and backtrack the missiles incoming vector, they will be looking in the wrong area.....)

[Charles Fox]

The sensor drone idea is brilliant, but how do you get it to work? I didn't realise you could launch missiles without giving them a target.