Ahh! Aliens are real! And hostile! (Help!)

[Teiwaz (OP)]

Actually, a resolution 100 FC will be able to target 5000 ton and larger at it's rated range, the 122.4mkm in this case. Lower resolution is better for seeing smaller ships than bigger size. How big is that FC?

212.5 tons. When I built it, I set it to the resolution I wanted (5000 tons) and then dialed up the size 'till I hit the range on my missiles. I guess something went wrong and the resolution got reset, or something?

[Teiwaz (OP)]

Okay, trying this again (FC size issues notwithstanding):

I added a missile detection sensor to the Marauders. I had to remove a AMM launcher, but managed to fit a little extra fuel in there, as well.

I'm wondering if maybe I should remove some of the AMM launchers in favor or more ASM launchers? My missile cruisers have ended up being better missile defense than my escorts, and I'm going to end up with quite a few escorts due to my shipyard considerations.

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Marauder Mk2 class Missile Cruiser    11,000 tons     1024 Crew     1538.08 BP      TCS 220  TH 1071  EM 0
4868 km/s     Armour 3-44     Shields 0-0     Sensors 18/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 35
Annual Failure Rate: 193%    IFR: 2.7%    Maint Capacity 1437 MSP    Max Repair 96 MSP    Est Time: 3.43 Years
Magazine 617    

Lockheed-Martin E8.8 Overcharged Ion Engine (17)    Power 63    Fuel Use 88%    Signature 63    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 190,000 Litres    Range 35.3 billion km   (83 days at full power)

Standard Missile Launcher S-5 Mk1 (5)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Anti-Missile Launcher S-1 Mk1 (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC122-R100 (1)     Range 122.4m km    Resolution 100
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control FC10-R1 (1)     Range 10.1m km    Resolution 1
Sabre Anti-Ship Missile Mk2 (64)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 28.1m    Range: 40.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 128 / 76 / 38
Lancet Anti-Missile Missile Mk2 (300)  Speed: 30,300 km/s   End: 0.6m    Range: 1.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 181 / 109 / 54

Active Search Sensor MR57-R100 (1)     GPS 9600     Range 57.6m km    Resolution 100
Missile Detection Sensor MR1-R1 (1)     GPS 20     Range 1.2m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km
Sony EM1-6 Commercial EM Detection Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Added a missile sensor to the Phalanx, as well. I downgraded the passive sensors to make room, as since the Phalanx is an escort, it should always be with a larger ship with better passives anyway.

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Phalanx Mk2 class Escort    4,000 tons     307 Crew     575.74 BP      TCS 80  TH 378  EM 0
4725 km/s     Armour 3-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 6/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 6
Annual Failure Rate: 128%    IFR: 1.8%    Maint Capacity 90 MSP    Max Repair 56 MSP    Est Time: 1.13 Years
Magazine 297    

Lockheed-Martin E8.8 Overcharged Ion Engine (6)    Power 63    Fuel Use 88%    Signature 63    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 80,000 Litres    Range 40.9 billion km   (100 days at full power)

Anti-Missile Launcher S-1 Mk1 (6)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control FC10-R1 (1)     Range 10.1m km    Resolution 1
Lancet Anti-Missile Missile Mk2 (297)  Speed: 30,300 km/s   End: 0.6m    Range: 1.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 181 / 109 / 54

Missile Detection Sensor MR1-R1 (1)     GPS 20     Range 1.2m km    Resolution 1
Sony MR9-R100 Commercial Active Search Sensor (1)     GPS 1600     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 100
Sony TH1-6 Commercial Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km
Sony EM1-6 Commercial EM Detection Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


[Ziusudra]

The resolution is right but the range is short. It will see 50 ton objects at 1.2mkm, but size 6 missiles are only 15 tons which it will see at 100,000-150,000km. So, you're gonna have to increase it's size. You can drop the other sensors to make room, let the Marauder worry about that.

Another option would be to not defend the jump point, but defend the populations. PDCs don't need to worry about engines, fuel or shipyard capacities and while they need some magazines, they can transfer ordinance from the populations. They can also be built faster than ships.

[Teiwaz (OP)]

Argh! It did it to me again! I was looking at the wrong line of the range summary. Sigh...

Earth is already running low on several minerals. I can't stay bottled up, forever. (I established a number of automated mining complexes, no colonies, yet.)

Thanks for the input. Ship design is hard!

[Teiwaz (OP)]

OKAY! If this doesn't work, I'm just going to hire some nautical engineers.

All the time re-researching components has allowed me to increase the size of my shipyards. The new versions are 1000 tons heavier than the old.

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Marauder Mk3 class Missile Cruiser    12,000 tons     1139 Crew     1754.88 BP      TCS 240  TH 1134  EM 0
4725 km/s     Armour 3-46     Shields 0-0     Sensors 18/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 40
Annual Failure Rate: 288%    IFR: 4%    Maint Capacity 1366 MSP    Max Repair 176 MSP    Est Time: 1.85 Years
Magazine 622   

Lockheed-Martin E8.8 Overcharged Ion Engine (18)    Power 63    Fuel Use 88%    Signature 63    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 140,000 Litres    Range 23.9 billion km   (58 days at full power)

Standard Missile Launcher S-5 Mk1 (7)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Anti-Missile Launcher S-1 Mk1 (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC122-R100 (1)     Range 122.4m km    Resolution 100
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control FC10-R1 (1)     Range 10.1m km    Resolution 1
Sabre Anti-Ship Missile Mk2 (84)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 28.1m    Range: 40.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 128 / 76 / 38
Lancet Anti-Missile Missile Mk2 (200)  Speed: 30,300 km/s   End: 0.6m    Range: 1.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 181 / 109 / 54

Active Search Sensor MR57-R100 (1)     GPS 9600     Range 57.6m km    Resolution 100
Missile Detection Sensor MR10-R1 (1)     GPS 176     Range 10.6m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km
Sony EM1-6 Commercial EM Detection Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


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Phalanx Mk3 class Escort    5,000 tons     397 Crew     790.54 BP      TCS 100  TH 504  EM 0
5040 km/s     Armour 3-26     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 6
Annual Failure Rate: 200%    IFR: 2.8%    Maint Capacity 99 MSP    Max Repair 176 MSP    Est Time: 0.28 Years
Magazine 297   

Lockheed-Martin E8.8 Overcharged Ion Engine (8)    Power 63    Fuel Use 88%    Signature 63    Armour 0    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 80,000 Litres    Range 32.7 billion km   (75 days at full power)

Anti-Missile Launcher S-1 Mk1 (6)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control FC10-R1 (1)     Range 10.1m km    Resolution 1
Lancet Anti-Missile Missile Mk2 (297)  Speed: 30,300 km/s   End: 0.6m    Range: 1.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 181 / 109 / 54

Missile Detection Sensor MR10-R1 (1)     GPS 176     Range 10.6m km    Resolution 1
Sony MR9-R100 Commercial Active Search Sensor (1)     GPS 1600     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

All good? I hope?

[Narmio]

I'm wondering if maybe I should remove some of the AMM launchers in favor or more ASM launchers? My missile cruisers have ended up being better missile defense than my escorts, and I'm going to end up with quite a few escorts due to my shipyard considerations.

Yes.  Particularly early on, when you're limited with tonnage, specialisation for each ship is the way to go.  That missile cruiser needs to be all about putting on the hurt, leave the escorts to keep it alive!

(edit:  Drop the res 100 active sensor from the Phalanx, it's doubled up with the new missile sensor and isn't really doing anything any more.It will presumably always be operating with at least one Marauder, so no need to double up on a long-range active.)

Also, if you are sure you are always going to be operating with escorts, you could drop the AMM capability from the missile cruiser alltogether.  You will be able to drop the anti-missile radar, the smaller fire controls and the launchers, gaining you a load more offensive launchers.

Look at it this way: Assume your two ships were firing at each other.  A flight of seven of your anti-ship missiles is probably something that a single Phalanx escort could destroy before they impacted - you'd need ~4 AMMs per missile to have good chances to hit, and you'll get to fire about four volleys of 6 Lancets while while the Sabres crossed their 1mkm range.  There's a decent chance none of them are going to get through, maybe one or two if you're unlucky.  And it's impossible for one 4-damage missile to get through three layers of armour, and very unlikely for two.  Assuming your opponents are better at missile defence than you, or that they outnumber you, your five missile volleys are going to have a hard time getting through a single escort.
 
More of an offensive focus, and more of a first-strike focus, will serve you well. Especially on the defensive.

[Ziusudra]

My guess is that the resolution 100 sensor is 1HS and I would switch that for another engineering space. I would also guess that that max repair is either the fire control or the resolution 1 sensor. Don't want to not be able to repair either of those.

[Teiwaz (OP)]

I've entered the Ross128 system and have engaged the alien fleet. Their missiles have ranges upwards of 90 million km! My AMM defenses are holding up for now...

I've deactivated active sensors other than my anti-missile sensors in the hope that that's how they're seeing me, and am moving a way to give my AMMs the best shot at stopping these waves. I sure hope I've got more AMMs than they've got missiles! (Or, 5x more AMMs than they've got missiles, really.)

Down to half ammo on most of my ships for AMMs. No end of the missile waves in sight. Just salvo after salvo of 48 size 4 missiles...

Phew! Missiles stopped. I'm at about 1/3rd stocks of AMMs. I hope that's all the missiles they've got and it's not that I just broke contact. Turning the big active sensors back on...

Battlehawks are retreating. They must have used up all their missiles and are heading home. Chippewas are still incoming, however, but they're further out.

Agh! More missiles! Chippewas are launching, now.

Only salvos of 30, this time. Missile defense are having an easier time of it.

Some of my magazines are dry. Hits are getting through. Those ships must be 90% magazine!

Warlord just exploded. All AMMs are expended. Running for it!

Champion just went, as well.

Oh, thank god! Missiles have stopped! Chippewas are bugging out. My damaged ships are collecting life pods form the ones that were destroyed, and are heading back to the jump point. My intact ships are in pursuit - I have a speed advantage, so I can always run if more alien ships show up.

Uh oh! They beat me back to a small moon, and apparently reloading ordinance is instant. The Chippewas went right past the moon, so hopefully that means they didn't get a full load of ordinance, because I'm far too close to them to flee.

I made it into missile range, no sign of enemy missiles, yet. What are they doing?

Woops, there they are. Does anyone know how to work the missile launchers on these things?

Marauder, Vengeance, Victory and Warspite just bought it. But I tihkn they're out of missiles again. I am sooooo nuking their homeworld for this!

Uh, crud. Chippewas are coming back, now. Time to leave!

Aha! My missile salvo just caught up with the bloodhawks despite almost all of the firing ships being destroyed. That .1 MSP on thermal sensors was the best 40th of a ton I ever spent!

...And that's it. The few survivors are limping back to the jump point so they can be rescued by a survey ship. That didn't go so well.

Aliens had twice my range. And with the ability to instantly refill ordinance, just weathering the storm of missiles wasn't enough.

[Rastaman]

Some maybe gamey tactics. Identify their bases in system. Then jump in with a fast ship high endurance (TG A)that has a long range active sensor (and nothing else). Then jump in ships with long range missiles (TG B).

Lure them away from their bases, and away from TG B, by flying around TG A with active sensors. When you think it's far enough, fly TG B up to their bases and nuke them from orbit.

Another tactic: Use fighters. They are fast and not easily seen, but can have enough missile firepower to nuke their bases. Given that you can design faster ships then they have, a carrier group is ideal.

Once they are out of ammo, you can kill them at your leisure.

Yes.  Particularly early on, when you're limited with tonnage, specialisation for each ship is the way to go.  That missile cruiser needs to be all about putting on the hurt, leave the escorts to keep it alive!

I wonder whether this really is the case. It doesn't matter on which ships the given systems are on, they always take up the same tonnage. It seems to me that escorts only make a difference if they are are positioned differently, which they should be of course. Otherwise it seems to make more sense to put all those defensive systems into the main combat ship, and armor that ship up.

But I admit my experience is limited, I only had one engagement so far with similar enemies, and I had 50 fighters with level 5 tech pretty much across the board (internal confinement level). Then it's pretty easy.

[Giggle]

I wonder whether this really is the case. It doesn't matter on which ships the given systems are on, they always take up the same tonnage. It seems to me that escorts only make a difference if they are are positioned differently, which they should be of course.

You can save space with ship specialisation because you don't have radar and Fire control redundancies.

If you base your fleet on missiles for attack and anti-missile for defense and you chose not to specialize : you have to put a short range Resolution 1 fire control and a long range high res firce control on each ship.
Basicaly, if you have two ships, it means, you have to produce and install 4 fire controls or you have to design an even bigger RES 1 long range multipurpose fire control.

Or you can specialise, and your anti-ship vessel has the long range fire control, and your defense vessel has the short range res 1 fire control.
Basicaly, you have to produce and install only 2 fire control, and you can put more missiles launchers and magasines.

I often save more space on my ships by putting the sensors and radars on a single ships dedicated to that and early warning crafts : all my other ships are radarless, but they have bigger guns.

[Five]

Ya i ussually roll with a Command ship that houses all my radars...passive and active. That way i can put more weapons on my other ships. And i'm definetly a specialize your ships type too. Maybe as your ships get larger you won't hae to worry about specialization, yet it really seems to help for smaller ships...atleast to me.

-Five

[Brian Neumann]

You can save space with ship specialisation because you don't have radar and Fire control redundancies.

I often save more space on my ships by putting the sensors and radars on a single ships dedicated to that and early warning crafts : all my other ships are radarless, but they have bigger guns.

I will often put a short range, low res active sensor on all of my ships.  Something that can see anything out to just past my beam weapons fire control range.  As these do not have much of a signature I can have them running without much chance of broadcasting where my fleet is.  I then have a couple of fleet scouts with the really long range actives to spot enemy ships way out there.  My anti-missile escorts will have a stronger res 1 sensor to see out as far as my missile fire control can shoot, and usually a little longer.  On small escorts they will have a little smaller active that can see out about 1 million km.  I am relying on the capital ship escorts for longer range actives against missiles.  All together this gives me the ability to turn on different types of sensors selectivly.  As currently you can only turn all the sensors on a ship on and off together, this lets me keep an eye on the near vicinity without broadcasting to everyone in a system where I am.  Obviously I am depending on passives to spot a fleet at long range before they can spot my ships with their active sensors.

Brian

[Giggle]

I confess that putting the sensors ina  single ship can be a problem if you lose it, but that's very efficient.

I build a 2500 tons / RES 20 active sensor and I put it on a 10.000t cruiser.
That can see anything anywhere.
I add a RES 1 with the same range than my AMMs, like you do.
And I add strongest passives I can design.
The remaining space go in armor and shield, just in case.

Thanks to this, I save a lot of space on my other ships : before that, I used to take up to 10 HS for sensors in every ship, with 20 ships in an average fleet, 10.000 tons of space were wasted for radars.

This ship are the real eyes of the fleets, but you can put them in orbit of a new colony before the construction of tracking stations.
 

[Rastaman]

What do you think is a good passive strength for fleet scouts which fly the perimeter?

You can save space with ship specialisation because you don't have radar and Fire control redundancies.

I don't think so. For radar this is so because every ship is data linked to all the others, but fire control is linked to the weapons, it a part of the weapons in other words. Again it doesn't matter where the weapons are, they always take the same tonnage. The disadvantages could be found elsewhere,

1. for instance that the bigger the ship, the more space a single point of armor will cost. If you have offense and defense on the same ship, it tends to be big, so more tonnage is needed for a given armor thickness. On the other hand, the bigger ship's armor will be tougher because of the larger target area.

2. or it's the engine performance. A little test with level 6 tech (inertial confinement):

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Ship A class Cruiser    6,550 tons     183 Crew     929.6 BP      TCS 131  TH 35.84  EM 0
3419 km/s     Armour 3-31     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 38     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 40%    IFR: 0.6%    Maint Capacity 754 MSP    Max Repair 308 MSP    Est Time: 3.02 Years
Cargo 5000    

Pratt & Whitney PW2176 Power (2)    Power 224    Fuel Use 54%    Signature 17.92    Armour 0    Exp 30%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 25.4 billion km   (86 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Ship B class Cruiser    12,700 tons     326 Crew     1702.8 BP      TCS 254  TH 71.68  EM 0
3527 km/s     Armour 3-48     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 47     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 75%    IFR: 1.1%    Maint Capacity 1425 MSP    Max Repair 308 MSP    Est Time: 3.02 Years
Cargo 10000    

Pratt & Whitney PW2176 Power (4)    Power 224    Fuel Use 54%    Signature 17.92    Armour 0    Exp 30%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 26.2 billion km   (86 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Ship B has double the payload, tank and engine power as ship A. Both ships have an advanced damage control and are designed for 3 years of maintenance life. Ship B is actually smaller than double the size of ship A, it is a little bit faster and has 54% more armor. It costs 183% of ship A. The range is similar.

So where is the advantage to build 20 of ship A instead of 10 of ship B?

Fleet A
has 3x31x20=1860 squares of armor, Fleet B has 3x48x10=1440 squares of armor  
has more single targets for the enemy to engage.  
has a smaller sensor footprint  
needs smaller shipyards 
and smaller maintenance facilities,  
 
more jump drives to transport them over interstellar distances.  
for about 10% more cost.  
and maybe more shipyards

[Charlie Beeler]

<snip>I've deactivated active sensors other than my anti-missile sensors in the hope that that's how they're seeing me, <snip>

Your most likely being tracked by planetary tracking stations.  How close have you gotten to the planet and with what strength passive and active sensors?