Economic cost of Fighters and Missles

[Brian Neumann (OP)]

As I look at the cost to build a fighter or missle, I keep coming up with two problems.  One is the cost of the ordinance in comparison to the ship.  The second is the relative build rate of factories as compared to the cost of the product.

A typical missle over multiple levels of technology takes between 20% and 50% of the production of a factory.  This means that 50,000 people can only make 2-5 missles per year.  To me this is a bit on the slow side.  With fighters, it appears that one factory makes maybe 1/2 of a fighter per year.  Here again this is very slow.

For the ships I have been designing with around one magazine per launcher, the cost of the missles tends to come out somewhere near 75% to 80% of the cost of the ship.  This seams to be a bit high to me.  (Does anyone know the relative cost of missles to ship for current Aegis ships?)

My first thought is that missles and fighters are to overpriced and should be reduced.  The only problem there is that makes missle combat much more attractive, and I know that is one aspect that Steve is deliberately toning down from starfire.  A good balance might be to make the magazine's, launchers and hanger bays cost more.  This would both serve to make missle ships and carriers more expensive, and reduce the ratio of cost between the ordanince vs the ships.

Anybody have any other ideas?

Brian

[kdstubbs]

Generally speaking the cost of a TLAM is about 1.5 Million per copy, the SM-2 Blk III and Blk IV would cost less, I would estimate below one million per copy.  The new SM-3 costs more, but probably comes in at 1.5 Million per copy.  The costs would be about that low.  The AEGIS cruisers of the CG-47 class cost about one billion per ship.

Fighter missiles are much less expensive probably an order of magnitude lower.  

Actual figures
Primary Function Air-to-air tactical missile  
Contractor Hughes Aircraft Co. and Raytheon Co.  
Power Plant High performance  
Length 143.9 inches (366 centimeters)  
Launch Weight 335 pounds (150.75 kilograms)  
Diameter 7 inches (17.78 centimeters)  
Wingspan 20.7 inches (52.58 centimeters)  
Range 20+ miles (17.38+ nautical miles)  
Speed Supersonic  
Guidance System Active radar terminal/inertial midcourse  
Warhead Blast fragmentation  
Unit Cost $386,000  

Rule of Thumb the Ship costs a billion, the missile about one million, for the aircraft, a typical modern fighter costs about 200 million per copy for something like the FA-22, but the AMRAAM only costs about 400 K

Hope this helps

Kevin

[Brian Neumann (OP)]

Rule of Thumb the Ship costs a billion, the missile about one million, for the aircraft, a typical modern fighter costs about 200 million per copy for something like the FA-22, but the AMRAAM only costs about 400 K

Hope this helps

Kevin

So with a load of 144 missiles the magazine loadout would be around 200 million and the ship costs about five times that.  Compared to a cost of 795 for a size 100 ship and 133 missiles (size 6, 4 launchers and 4 magazines) that cost 372.4 which equals 46.8%.  This is about double what is in the real world.  This ship was done with low tech.  When I stepped up to all reasearch at 10,000 or less done the cost of the ship went up to 929 and the cost of the missiles went up to 751.45 or roughly 80% of the cost of the ship.  That 80% mark stays fairly constant for several more increments of reasearch as well.

Brian

[Randy]

A more accurate comparison would be ship cost to missile cost for an SSBN.

Remeber that the missiles in Aurora are big things with big warheads. If I remember right, they are 1/100 hull space per size point (allowing 1/3 of a magazine for machinery). Thus an average size 4 missile is really 2 tons...

  Just for comparison, it costs 50,000,000 per year to operate an Ohio. Each carries 24 missiles. The missiles cost  about 29,100,000 each (about 700 million in total). They make about 7 per year.

The SSGN version can carry 154 tomahawks. They cost about 1.5 million each or 225 million for a full load.

The estimated cost of a Virginia SSN is 2.3 billion.  Can't find a purchase price for an Ohio...

Depending on if you consider the missiles tridents or tomahawks, the cost for a full load out would be between 10 and 30% of the ship cost...

[kdstubbs]

Randy,
        Good point.  Essentially I gave you the Fighter missile costs, and Point Defense Missile Costs, while you provided the costs for the planetary defense missiles.  Remember ICBMs and SLBMs are very long range missiles, while the Anti-Ship missiles--such as Tomahawk, Harpoon, the Russian SS-N-12, SS-N-19, SS-N-22, SS-N-24 (I believe I am remembering NATO nomenclature correctly),are much shorter ranged.  

      If we assume ICBM, SLBM costs and sizes for the Shipborne Anti-surface warfare missiles then your costs are correct, however, if we use the TLAM and Harpoon class weapons for this mission, and the ICBM/SLBMs for the planetary assault role (think SM versus CBM) then perhaps the costs aren't quite accurate.  

     Ohio class boats cost approximate 2 Billion per hull when built, while a carrier costs approximately 7 billion per hull and associated strike group--these are approximate figures I recall from my past studies.  

Kevin

[kdstubbs]

The enclosed website provides a complete analysis of the Cost of operating the 18 trident submarines in the USN.  


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... -726cl.htm

Question of cost of a Trident D-5 missile can be estimated based on Legislative debate in 1998.  When production termination was under debate.  based on this data:  http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/970620-cr.htm

Quote:  In order to comply with the START II Treaty, the Navy is planning to retire four of the older subs carrying the C-4 missiles, but the Navy is currently planning to back-fit the other four with the new D-5 missiles. Although the Navy has already an inventory of 350 D-5 missiles, it nevertheless plans to procure an additional 84 Trident D-5's through the year 2005, unless Congress intercedes.

We believe the responsible course is for our Navy to cancel the proposed back-fit of the older C-4 subs and, over time, reduce its fleet of Ohio-class submarines to 10 vessels. With a fleet of 10 Ohio-class submarines carrying the new D-5 missiles, the Navy will no longer need the additional 84 missiles they have requested through fiscal year 2005. The current inventory of 350 missiles will be sufficient, 240 for the 10 Trident D-5 subs and 110 for testing purposes.

There are very important reasons why this amendment should be approved by the House of Representatives. The Trident D-5 missile is a cold war weapon specifically designed to destroy hardened missile silos and other military targets found in the former Soviet Union. But today the nuclear threat from the former Soviet Union is dramatically reduced.

While there is still an important role for strategic nuclear weapons in our arsenal, that role is dramatically reduced from what it was in the past, and weapon procurement should reflect that.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that this amendment would save taxpayers with this act this year and with future subsequent acts more than $5.7 billion over 10 years, including $342 million in fiscal year 1998. This savings would then be available for personnel readiness and military training purposes or to reduce the deficit.  UNQUOTE

The cost of foregoing production of 84 missiles was estimated to save 342M dollars in 1998, with 5.7 billion over ten years.  So I will allow you to figure out costs per missile based on initial production costs of 570 million per year for a production run of 84 missiles from 1998 to 2005.  

kevin

[kdstubbs]

Finally found the data I was looking for on the Trident D-5.
Unit costs are $29.1M

Primary Function:  Strategic Nuclear Deterrence
Contractor: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Inc., Sunnyvale, Calif.
Unit Cost:  $29.1 million (current production)
Power Plant: Three-stage solid-propellant rocket
Length: 44 feet (13.41 meters)
Weight: 130,000 pounds (58,500 kg)
Diameter:  74 inches (1.85 meters)
Range:  Greater than 4,000 nautical miles (4,600 statute miles, or 7,360 km)
Guidance System: Inertial
Warheads:  Thermonuclear MIRV (Multiple Independently Targetable re-entry Vehicle); Maneuverable Re-entry Vehicle
Date Deployed: 1990

[Brian Neumann (OP)]

If I am understanding the numbers here the ratio seems to be around 25% of the cost of a ship in the embarked munitions.  I think this makes my point that for most tech levels in the game the missles cost to much as they average out at around 75% of the cost of the ship.  One caveat, this does not hold true at the very low end of the tech spectrum.  There the cost is around 30% or so.

Brian

[Shinanygnz]

Finally found the data I was looking for on the Trident D-5.
Unit costs are $29.1M

Primary Function:  Strategic Nuclear Deterrence
Contractor: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Inc., Sunnyvale, Calif.
Unit Cost:  $29.1 million (current production)
Power Plant: Three-stage solid-propellant rocket
Length: 44 feet (13.41 meters)
Weight: 130,000 pounds (58,500 kg)
Diameter:  74 inches (1.85 meters)
Range:  Greater than 4,000 nautical miles (4,600 statute miles, or 7,360 km)
Guidance System: Inertial
Warheads:  Thermonuclear MIRV (Multiple Independently Targetable re-entry Vehicle); Maneuverable Re-entry Vehicle
Date Deployed: 1990

Presumably, considering the fairly low cost, this is just for the missile.  What's the cost of a decent size nuke warhead to stick on the business end?

Stephen

[SteveAlt]

Just trying to catch up a little with all the mails. I will look at this properly at the weekend but in the meantime I would be interested to know how many salvos people assume for their missile ships when deciding on magazine capacity and number of missiles. That will have a big effect on the cost of missiles vs cost of ship.

Steve

[Erik L]

Just trying to catch up a little with all the mails. I will look at this properly at the weekend but in the meantime I would be interested to know how many salvos people assume for their missile ships when deciding on magazine capacity and number of missiles. That will have a big effect on the cost of missiles vs cost of ship.

Steve

My missile designs are usually calculated for 100 rounds. Spread between 4 launchers (light missile boat) and 6-8 (heavy missile boat).

[Haegan2005]

Just trying to catch up a little with all the mails. I will look at this properly at the weekend but in the meantime I would be interested to know how many salvos people assume for their missile ships when deciding on magazine capacity and number of missiles. That will have a big effect on the cost of missiles vs cost of ship.

Steve

13 salvoes to 20 salvoes for larger ships. My Spruance carries 67 missiles total for its  five launchers. That's 13 full salvoes and a trailer of two.

[Charlie Beeler]

Just trying to catch up a little with all the mails. I will look at this properly at the weekend but in the meantime I would be interested to know how many salvos people assume for their missile ships when deciding on magazine capacity and number of missiles. That will have a big effect on the cost of missiles vs cost of ship.

Steve

10 salvos minimum for by DD's.  

20 salvos minimum for PDC's

3 reloads for carrier based fighters and 5 for one's PDC based.


My current game has the Terran's battle groups are multiples of 1 10k carrier with 2 escorting DD's.  

Each ship has a quad point defense turret.

[Brian Neumann (OP)]

I usually have one magazine per launcher on smaller ships and 1 1/2 to 2 magazines on capital ships.  This works out to around 20 shots per launcher on average.  On big ships I may sometimes throw in an extra magazine for special designs.  (a couple salvo's of bombs, or decoy's that have no warhead but all armor, etc.)  For really small ships I often cut back to 12-15 salvoe's.  Ten of anti ship and the rest of anti fighter or other special munitions.

Brian

[Brian Neumann (OP)]

I forgot to mention fighters.  I usually have around 3-5 salvoe's per fighter, mostly 3 with 5 on the really big carriers.  PDC have more like 8-10 so they don't run out, and to allow for more variability in the missles available.  Most carrier groups have a pair of escort DD's per carrier and an escort CA/BC for every 4 or 5 carriers.  There is usually one collier for every 5 carriers.  The escorts also have one magazine even though they don't have missile batteries.  A collier would have around one full reload for all of it's carriers.

Brian