Author Topic: combat on or above surface areas on planets  (Read 4213 times)

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Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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combat on or above surface areas on planets
« on: July 06, 2020, 01:32:49 AM »
Anybody ever play Krellan Commander (Star Fleet II)?  You (as the Krellan) investigated worlds in other star systems while at war with the 'Federation'.  It was very Star Trekie in flavor.   You could send down teams to explore or interact with natives (if any) and you could build outposts.   If you wanted to seize an Federation planet you brought in transports with landers and put you legions down and fought it out with defending units.   Actually one of the best 'star trek' 4x games I have ever played (I still have the rulebook with the codes to play it after all these years).

My point is that when you build STO beam weapons you can't very well shoot thru a mountain range or thru the core of the planet to hit a target in space on the far side.  I would suggest a simple planetary ground grid.   An asteroid would be just 1 'box'with the terrain of what.. Cratered? Mountain?  Other planets can have a line of  3-5 equator boxes and 1-3 polar above and 1-3 polar below.  They might have differing terrain around the equator.   Some water, some mountain, some jungle.  You could come in on the blind side of a planet, land forces and go overland to attack your enemies ground forces.  If the planet is mostly water it would be like Rogue One where you have to hit the  one island the defenders can put troops in.

As the defender you would have to put your space weapons not just in orbit but at a Trojan point to cover part of the world (2 or 3 depends on size of planet or rock).  If you build STOs now are they all together in one valley or on one continent or on one Arctic area?   Whatever you wish but with this system you would need to cover the whole planet by space and by ground.   Its kinda silly now saying your 1 million man army is attacking his 1 million 'man' army upon landing.  Who says you have to assault right where his troops are? (unless you like Omaha Beach scenarios).  You can reinforce landings at a distance and have them 'march' or hover into the battle.  Now you can have planets with multiple terrain.  The computer only need remember the terrain in the boxes and anything in that box.  Your space units can pound down defenses on one side of the planet, land, and start moving for the other side (if possible).

I know this adds another level of detail but heck... currently this game is just short of choosing regular or decaf coffee on your flagship bridge...  If your going whole hog on ground combat might as well make it more realistic that two guys with hammers banging on each other til one falls.   Something more for the game IMHO.

 

Offline SpaceMarine

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2020, 02:21:55 AM »
it would take a lot of work to implement but I could see it being beneficial I already kind of model this RP wise in my letsplay series but obviously a STO can shoot at anything coming in, the main problem is that in aurora its very very 2d and there really isnt much direction so its hard to base zones off anything that would relate to real space in the game, also another problem is that people see STOs and ship weapons differently, some people think their STOs can only shoot in this one area some think they are massive fortresses around the planet that can fire on all sides etc, so it might take away from that but I think at the very least the idea should be explored




this is how i think of my STOs and i spread them out accordingly to what i thought was somewhat realistic in the series so it could def be cool
 

Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2020, 02:39:58 AM »
Since there would be equator and arctic 'boxes' (for actual planets, not asteroids) then when you order you fleet into orbit you choose 'close orbit' and pic a region you want your fleet to synchronized orbit over or assault after you run any gauntlet of STO long range fire or fire from orbital stations.
 

Offline SpaceMarine

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2020, 02:42:52 AM »
Since there would be equator and arctic 'boxes' (for actual planets, not asteroids) then when you order you fleet into orbit you choose 'close orbit' and pic a region you want your fleet to synchronized orbit over or assault after you run any gauntlet of STO long range fire or fire from orbital stations.

the problem is, theres really not a thing called "orbit" in aurora its more your ontop of something or your not, and in combat most of the time you arent directly above a planet your firing from mkm or a 100,000km away, so i dont see how that would work in that aspect.
 

Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2020, 12:04:23 AM »
Thinking this thru as I go.... ship/TF/Fleet command 'tactical planetary approach' Y/N.    Y then your ship with the longest
scanner will stop your ship/TF/Fleet at standoff at the longest range of what your active/passive sensor can see.  If its in range of planetary or orbital weapons then you can choose to move further away like you can do now.  If N then a box diagram of the planet surface will come up (must be surveyed) or just generalized terrain as now is listed.  If surveyed you will see (as example)  Earth....3 upper planet boxes, 5 equator planet boxes, 3 lower planet boxes each with their own specific  terrain (water/Mountain/Plains/Colony).   The planet does not need to actually physically spin.  The highlighted is what your ship can see and that area will move across the planet surface and back to start again (except for tidal locked bodies).    this would give you your approach angle.  The highlight is based upon what your ship you control at that time sees.   Other ships could see other parts of the planet.

If you look up in the posting boxes above at 'Marquee' you will see it move right to left.  There would always be the 3 upper and 3 lower boxes for arctic and those would also be the points of 0-120-240-360(0) coming out of the planet.  The highlight is what you see and what can see you.   If you orbit satellites you would now have to have them at one of those 3 points to see (remember Independence Day?) to cover your planet.   If a missile base in orbit you would need a sensor buoy in the other two spots or on the ground to hit targets out of your angle.

Again if you hit N then you will choose to close to a range you determine and  go into a synchronous orbit over one of the equator areas.   Then you can start your fireworks and landings.  Using 'tactical planetary approach' at all would be a choice the player makes otherwise its a normal game approach to a friendly or unknown planet to survey.
 
If you need some stationary point to do math from just use the star as center.  Where the planet is facing is dependent upon the fleet or ships approaching so no need to keep calculations for years on each one.

Asteroids and really small moons would only have the one box as I imagine they spin alot leaving the garrison to puke into its boots regularly.

please choose to shoot holes in my idea wherever you wish or to make comments to improve it.  I do not program computers.  I could do this type of maneuver on a 2-d flat map game on paper like a board game.   Many years ago I wrote a set of Napoleonic table top rules called 'Bearskins and Bayonets' which, of course, went nowhere but used up alot of ink to print.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 12:11:11 AM by plasticpanzers »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2020, 06:05:01 AM »
Given how abstract everything planet side is there would need to be allot of changes to how ground combat and planetary occupation would work to make any of this even remotely a thing to consider.


It would be a monumental work and I'm not sure it would be hugely beneficial in the end.


I'm not against this as a concept or having a more realistic and slightly less abstract ground combat system, but I don't see this as realistic mechanic anytime soon.
 

Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2020, 10:19:37 PM »
Yes it would require some work but I personally think it would work fine.   It seems odd to enlarge surface combat to such
detail that you design your own armored cars and tanks then leave it where you land where they enemy is all the time.
There is no strategic combat... its just two giants beating on each other with usually the high tech winning so its just a
mathematics exercise.  I threw the idea out there to see what folks would think.  There are many other ways to do this
other than my quick initial idea.

Edit:  I would suggest strongly that you take a Youtube tour of the game.  The game is very primitive visually but the detail
put into it was amazing.   It is (in this version) much more ground orientated but with complex space battles possible. The
rulebook is 146 pages long with an Index.   All that on one 5.25 floppy disc in DOS.

Here is a link to a long review and play of the system done in March this year. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 11:27:07 PM by plasticpanzers »
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2020, 01:11:21 AM »
Yes it would require some work but I personally think it would work fine.   It seems odd to enlarge surface combat to such
detail that you design your own armored cars and tanks then leave it where you land where they enemy is all the time.
There is no strategic combat... its just two giants beating on each other with usually the high tech winning so its just a
mathematics exercise.  I threw the idea out there to see what folks would think.  There are many other ways to do this
other than my quick initial idea.

Edit:  I would suggest strongly that you take a Youtube tour of the game.  The game is very primitive visually but the detail
put into it was amazing.   It is (in this version) much more ground orientated but with complex space battles possible. The
rulebook is 146 pages long with an Index.   All that on one 5.25 floppy disc in DOS.

Here is a link to a long review and play of the system done in March this year. 

Sorry, but this is massive incorrect. Adding what you want wouldn't be 'some work'. 'Some work' is extending systems that are already in place. What you want is to build entirely new systems which require new functionality, linking an orbital combat mechanic into the 2D system maps, overhauling the AI so it can understand and work with the new ground combat...

I mean, you're linking to a game that you basically want built into Aurora with a 146 page rulebook. Does that sound like some work to you?

So no, what you want isn't some work, it's a pretty massive project. And if it catches Steve's imagination, he might indeed build it. But it isn't nearly as easy as you seem to be imagining it would be.
 
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Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2020, 01:44:47 AM »
I think you grossly mistake what I said.  I said that this was a idea to draw from, NOT copy or play.  If your going to have
ground combat you will always land 100% of your forces on 100% of the enemy force.  Then its just match matching up
the two sides for losses.  There is no true surface combat.  Same on a moon as on an asteroid as on a planet.   My idea
was simply that planets would have surfaces, very simple surfaces but the larger the planet the larger the number of
boxes representing the surface, each with its own terrain.  If in a 30 year old DOS game on a  5 1/4 inch floppy you can
see a planets surface (would be different I imagine than in this game) then you can choose to land where the enemy is not.
Right now its your forces, your tech, your constructs vs his forces, his tech, his constructs then math to figure out who wins.

This is anything but a rewrite of THAT game but a subroutine upon orbiting and having more choice to attack and to defend.
Unless you really love your STO 30cm Dupont X-ray lasers firing thru the core of your planet to hit a target that would wisely
be on the other side of said planet. Right now their is no 'other side'.  If you ramp up the ground combat and make all this
stuff designable and researchable but go back to the same I hit you with X (+/- numerous bonuses) vs Y (+/- numerous
bonuses)  then basically and truthfully your simply playing a more complex version of the same ground combat in the original
Aurora.

I did not say rewrite the game into this.  I said look at this for an idea on how it can be done.   If you don't like the idea fine
but don't be so negative.   And its not up to me anyhow on this.  ITS JUST A SUGGESTION.   oh by the way the surface combat
in that game IS 2-d, just like this one is in space is and I could do what I describe on a table top 2-d map of 1000 stars with a simple card
catalog to keep track of planet surfaces.  Then I could use any number of space-surface combat rules to it with the same detail
.... except I could do card graphics of the weapons.   Aurora is 2-D... you want 3-D play Sword of the Stars and may heaven have
pity on your brain trying to keep all that 3-d info in your head.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 02:12:11 AM by plasticpanzers »
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2020, 02:47:46 AM »
If your going to have ground combat you will always land 100% of your forces on 100% of the enemy force.  Then its just match matching up the two sides for losses.
Incorrect, or at least it depends per player. I certainly don't build lift capacity for my entire army, or use all of it to invade a world - garrison units remain in place on home worlds and colonies for one.

My idea was simply that planets would have surfaces, very simple surfaces but the larger the planet the larger the number of boxes representing the surface, each with its own terrain.
Necessitating a new UI, with interaction with orbiting ships for fire support purposes, and a complete overhaul of how STO weapons operate as you were complaining that they shouldn't be able to fire at all angles, meaning a complete overhaul of how combat functions around system objects. After all, shouldn't it then be possible to hide behind a moon and block line of fire? Where does the line start and stop?

Also necessitating a complete overhaul and expansion of the ground combat AI, as the AI now has to logically place units, move units from one sector to another. Colonies probably need to be overhauled as well, unless you assume an even distribution of buildings and populations over all present sectors... this is a giant can of worms that effects far more then simply ground combat.

If in a 30 year old DOS game on a  5 1/4 inch floppy you can see a planets surface (would be different I imagine than in this game) then you can choose to land where the enemy is not. Right now its your forces, your tech, your constructs vs his forces, his tech, his constructs then math to figure out who wins.
The age of the game or the size of it doesn't matter. What matters is that it involves shoehorning a new mode into an already established game, instead of building a game from the ground up around the concept of invading and conquering a world.

Unless you really love your STO 30cm Dupont X-ray lasers firing thru the core of your planet to hit a target that would wisely be on the other side of said planet. Right now their is no 'other side'.
I honestly never really think about it, and it isn't a major sticking point for me. See my above point - Yes, if you want to be pedantic then no, it's not logical that a STO can fire at any target within its range from a static point on the ground. But to change that, you need to pull on a lot more then you seem to think. Suddenly STO weapons need firing arcs on the 2D map, and logically should only be able to be engaged by beam weapons from within that arc, except when engaged with missiles, etc.

If you ramp up the ground combat and make all this stuff designable and researchable but go back to the same I hit you with X (+/- numerous bonuses) vs Y (+/- numerous bonuses)  then basically and truthfully your simply playing a more complex version of the same ground combat in the original Aurora.
Ding ding ding! That's what the upgrade was - an expanded and more complex version of the original ground combat that allows for more customization of playing your guys and telling your story in Aurora.

If you don't like the idea fine
but don't be so negative.   And its not up to me anyhow on this.  ITS JUST A SUGGESTION.
It's fine that its a suggestion, but my point is simply that you're vastly underestimating what you're asking for, and how much work it would take to add to the game. Its neither simple nor easy, and it has a lot of far reaching consequences in the code.   
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2020, 04:12:42 AM »
If your going to have ground combat you will always land 100% of your forces on 100% of the enemy force.  Then its just match matching up the two sides for losses.
Incorrect, or at least it depends per player. I certainly don't build lift capacity for my entire army, or use all of it to invade a world - garrison units remain in place on home worlds and colonies for one.

That's not what he said though... he said that you land 100% of the troops with no losses and no losses to the enemy troops in return. As long as you dealt with STO first that is. At least that is what he meant.

I agree with @plasticpanzer on the main concept that ground combat is too deterministic. Technology is also in my opinion given a bit too high effect in combat. Everyone will have to pay the same for their troops and technology will essentially increase your chances to win in an almost squared rate.

In my opinion there are several more elegant ways you can make ground combat more deep. Right now I fear that ground combat is mainly complex with little depth too it. We simply need to add depth to the combat model while not adding more complexity. Something that does not also mean tons of work for Steve to implement.

In general I'm fine with ground combat being abstracted. STO being able to shoot on anything in orbit is also abstracted as things in orbit will orbit so it will eventually be in range of guns no matter what. I think that all ground to space related matters should be done in 8 hour cycles for example because then there is no real issue with when a target is in view or not in terms of line of sight, it is all calculated into the chances to hit etc.

I certainly would like ground combat to simulate what it actually is, planetary scale wars. In some cases it will just be some outpost base with a small garrison and the fight might be over in a day or two. But if you invade a planet with 400 million people with cities and a built up infrastructure it will be a huge undertaking and very difficult for any attacker and it would take allot of time. Of course it also will depend on how willing you are to damage the infrastructure and kill the inhabitants in the process... but I want the choice to decide how brutal I want my invasions to be. From a role-play perspective this is important to me.

I could care less of some people just complain that why don't you always be max brutal as that waste less resources overall and min/max the game, for me that is not what the game is about. I care about the attitudes of the people inhabiting the world.

Perhaps the invading Warlord have been promised this new world as his own land to govern... he rather sacrifice his own soldiers life than damaging the infrastructure and wealth of the planet. There are no such thing that the game can ever really model in any real sens... but it make total sense for the people in charge and why they make the decisions they do. This warlord does not care that simply crush the enemy faster by destroying half the planet is more "efficient" from a "game" perspective.

I want a "better" ground combat simulation that simply is less deterministic and to some extent look at how large a colony is, and how large the planetoid is, how big the forces is and we might get a series of small pitched battles or might get a long drawn out war. We should be able to set the goal of any attack and how willing we are to damage the property of the planet and how civilians are to be handled during the war. These goals also could be changed during a war as other things surrounding a a war change too.

The amount of time that each ground combat round take should not be set to only 8 hours, this should in my opinion be the highest mode of intensity of any ground combat. The higher the intensity the more logistical cost the war should have. Intensity should go from 8 hours to perhaps 5 days between ground combat rounds. You also could throw in some special events into combat that could service as a mechanic for resistance movements and asymmetric warfare.

A defender should be able to use a some or even all their forces in a special field position called asymmetrical or guerrilla line or something. They will now have a really tine width and perhaps be 10% harder to hit but they will generate guerrilla events that mainly effect enemy troop morale and if you are lucky can do some serious damage too. Sure... using guerrilla tactic in a barren moon with next to no infrastructure would be suicide...  ;) ...but in a mountainous jungle planet with 500m people and a very dense infrastructure they would have a field day and be VERY effective. An enemy that does not choose to be very ruthless probably will stand almost no chance of winning unless they are VERY patient and can win the population support rather than combat the troops there.

Something that can simulate such things would probably be much less work as it is still abstracted, but would add depth to a the combat mechanic.

My current assessment of the ground combat is that it is mainly is complex with fairly low depth.
 

Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2020, 10:02:33 PM »
When I said you land 100% of your forces they will land on 100% of the defender.  There is no other way around that.   You may not land
all your troops you want or can at that time but its a 'Starship Trooper' system thats drops you right in the middle of it...didn't turn out to
well in the movie (or book) either.  Everybody is in the fight at the same place.

I never said Steve has to change his game at all.   I never suggested an assault of the holy of holy either.  Thy game be done....

You have a better idea where is it?  Or are you happy with the current ground system?  Is it really superb and needs no change and you
can do whatever you want (but have a realistic ground combat).   I recommended players to look at Krellan Commander as a place to get
ideas.  If you looked at the video at all during ground attacks you will see the planet and ship in 2D but the ship is actually orbiting the
planet.  When you look at the 2D surface map you can see all the terrain and cities and places of fortification from orbit as your ship(s) orbit
around the planet.  You choose where you want to land with how much.  That was a freaking brilliant piece of work in that game.

STO vs incoming ships can be whatever you want it to be.   Orbital mechanics once your in orbit are shown to work just fine and if you leave
orbit your back on the system 2D view just like Aurora.  Perhaps you can stage %s of STO and forts and troops in say 3 zones (orange slices)
of the planet and have to rush reinforcements to one that was assaulted.  Or you can do nothing at all and just say don't tamper with the
game..... but it has been.... this is not Aurora, its Aurora C#, so things do change.

Like I said that game was a gold mine of ideas for processes that work and can enhance Aurora C# and it is.  Nobody said at a Smorgasbord
you have to eat everything there.   Look at the mechanics of the flow and decide if you want more or less.  This game has done nothing but add
to itself and improve and change.... or maybe we should be happy with Aurora 4X version I.

I did not say whatsoever that you have to jump into a volcano but just for funs sake watch some of those videos on the link (yeah they drag like
watching grass grow sometimes) but skip along and you will find some freaking great ideas.   Suggestions are ideas.  This is my idea.  I see you
don't like it...good for you.  I have no power to change the game just suggest an idea.

Aurora C# is changing constantly.... why not make it even more fun?
 

Offline liveware

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2020, 12:05:50 AM »
So...

I have not played OP's referenced game, however I am interested in seeing more detailed development of Aurora ground combat. In terms of a compelling-yet-relatively-simple-to-program format for ground combat, I suggest a hybrid of the existing system and that which is implemented in Distant Worlds. Most importantly, DW generates a (presumably) procedurally generated 2D terrain map of each world. Said map could serve as the basis for a somewhat more intricate ground combat system in Aurora, which could possibly involve multiple battle fronts as well as more diverse ground unit types, such as naval ships and aircraft.

As Aurora ground combat still appears to be in the R&D phase, I wanted to leave my $0.02.
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM »
I don't think anyone is saying that Aurora should be feature-frozen now. Steve certainly has never implied that and as we can tell from the 1.12 changes list, there are already new features coming in. So don't take it personally, plasticpanzers.

What you are requesting is not easy nor is it simple. Planetary terrain and some pseudo-3D orbitals have been suggested and asked many times in the past. The problem is that it's not just one thing, it's several things that interact with more things.

For example: why can't I have submersible ion cannons floating deep in the oceans of a water world, ready to surprise the enemy? What if there is a giant mountain (like Olympus Mons on Mars) atop from which I can cover 75% of the planet? A small asteroid might actually be super tricky because it rotates so often - do I get fire every once every 20 minutes or is it a 50% chance every time I want to shoot whether the asteroid is facing the "right" direction? And that's just things with STOs off the top of my head.

What about the orbitals? Currently, all bodies are just a dot on a flat 2D board. With proper orbitals, all bodies need to actually be circles. Those we can get from System Generation easily enough but it does lead to other things. How is body surface handled - is it a smooth billiard ball or does surface fluctuate? That affects the line of fire for a lot of weapons, plus planetary fighters could hide behind geographical formations. How do you calculate those on a 2D map? Will planetary fighters, space fighters, and space ships be able to freely pick what altitude they fly on? Will they automatically explode if they hit the surface or is it only non-fighter sized vessels that get torn apart (as per Steve's current technobabble)? Are there any limits on how "high" orbitals ships can pick? Orbiting 100 km from the surface is quite different from orbit at 1000 km not to mention orbit at 10,000 km. At what level are commercial ships unloaded and loaded? Can you select multiple altitudes, like 100 km for extra wear & tear on your ship but quicker loading&unloading? How does this affect combat dropping troops, if at all? If it doesn't, should it?

And if we're going to have planetary terrain be an impact, then we are really going to need a separate planetary combat interface with maps for movement on strategic - operational - tactical level because the combat system supports both massive armies and individual soldiers. I don't mean X-Com/Jagged Alliance level of unit control but we need more tiles than just 100km x 100km squares since unit sizes fluctuate massively. It can be done, The Operational Art of War series did it. That means we're going to have dozens of different terrains just of Earth because fighting across a field of grass with a river in the middle is very different from fighting on a coral atoll with an active volcano in the middle, not to mention fighting on alien planets and dead moons and so on.

Finally, Steve has to program the AI to understand and utilize all this. And that's no easy feat. The more complex a game system becomes, the more difficult it is for an AI to be "good" at it, as demonstrated by the fact that only in Chess do we have computers routinely beat humans whereas anyone who has played any strategy game ever knows that unless the AI cheats, it can be easily beaten.
 
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Offline plasticpanzers (OP)

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Re: combat on or above surface areas on planets
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2020, 10:59:14 PM »
Why do you say I am taking this personally?  I keep saying I am not trying to change the game myself nor
any of its systems.  This was a  post a suggestion in a place for a suggestion.   Simply that.  Besides,
all maps are 2-D in all space games but Sword of the Stars and a few others.... but playing 3-D Sword of
the Stars can make you psychotic after awhile.. (lol)

 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 11:02:17 PM by plasticpanzers »