Slaughter in my first battle - help me figure out what went wrong?

[Zeebie (OP)]

Hi folks- I just had my first fleet action, and I was crushed utterly.   Can you help me figure out what went wrong?  I'm at low tech levels - e. g. , I haven't progressed far enough to make it worth redesigning my initial game-designed missiles.   My fleet was made up of 7 missile destroyers and 5 PD destroyer escorts:

Aegis class Destroyer Escort    4,600 tons     174 Crew     363. 02 BP      TCS 92  TH 300  EM 0
3260 km/s     Armour 2-24     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 5
Maint Life 5. 31 Years     MSP 1049    AFR 169%    IFR 2. 4%    1YR 62    5YR 933    Max Repair 48 MSP
Magazine 207    

Ion Engine E0. 8 (2)    Power 150    Fuel Use 8%    Signature 150    Armour 0    Exp 1%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 244. 5 billion km   (868 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control FC5-R1 (1)     Range 5. 8m km    Resolution 1
Uadjet Anti-missile Missile (100)  Speed: 24,800 km/s   End: 4. 5m    Range: 6. 7m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 107 / 64 / 32

Active Search Sensor MR26-R85 (1)     GPS 4080     Range 26. 6m km    Resolution 85

Mongol Beta class Destroyer    4,400 tons     344 Crew     451. 82 BP      TCS 88  TH 150  EM 0
1704 km/s     Armour 2-23     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 22. 5
Maint Life 5. 2 Years     MSP 1064    AFR 154%    IFR 2. 2%    1YR 66    5YR 984    Max Repair 96 MSP
Magazine 232    

Ion Engine E0. 8 (1)    Power 150    Fuel Use 8%    Signature 150    Armour 0    Exp 1%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 255. 6 billion km   (1736 days at full power)

Size 6 Missile Launcher (75% Reduction) (5)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 360
Missile Fire Control FC53-R85 (1)     Range 53. 1m km    Resolution 85
Dua Anti-ship Missile (39)  Speed: 21,400 km/s   End: 22. 8m    Range: 29. 3m km   WH: 8    Size: 6    TH: 71 / 42 / 21

Active Search Sensor MR53-R85 (1)     GPS 8160     Range 53. 1m km    Resolution 85

-Their fleet turned on their active sensors when they were at 2 million km.   Should my passive sensors have seen them before that? Should I have been running with active sensors on? I knew there were bad guys in the neighborhood and I didn't want to give away my location.
- I launched my ASMs and started waiting for the 20 minutes it would take for them to arrive.
- Suddenly their AMMs started exploding on my escorts.   It's scary to see that "nuclear detonation x64" message.   But I didn't see their missiles in flight at all.   Shouldn't I have seen those? Their flight time can't have been so fast they made it in 5 s?
- My escorts didn't fire their AMMs at all.   I had them set to 3vs1 point defense mode in the combat screen, and the missiles were listed as ready to fire.   Was there something else I needed to do?
- My ASMs were blown out of the sky by AMMs (again, I didn't see them on the screen).   Is that normal? How does one penetrate AMM screens?
- Then my main destroyers were vaporized by another round of AMMs.

Thanks for any help!

[Shooer]

You won't see missiles very well with a 85 res sensor since the resolution is tied to the smallest thing it will see at max range.   I always shove a spare res 1 on all my escorts above 4ktons.
You will never fire on anything that you can't see on actives so that answers several of your points.   Also I think your AMM is slow, at least by my standards.

If you wan't to say F U to PD and AMMs mass volleys are the easiest (not the cheapest) answer.   Though it has been awhile since I ran a box launcher only game (80-200 boxes a ship for ASMs) I do like to run smaller box armed only missile boats built to supplement fire when the missile cruisers aren't enough.

[Theokrat]

• You do not have any passive sensors on these ships
• As Shooer has pointed out, you Aegis lacks a decent resolution 1 sensor, without which its pretty useless. Once you get that, you can have the AEGIS run with its sensors switched on all the time - the emissions are very small anyway
• Your ships don't have a uniform size or speed, which they should.
• Your missiles are quite large, which reduces their chances to get through enemy defences. You would have been better off with ASMs that are exactly half as large, while shooting twice as many. The 75% reduction is a bit pointless.
• your armour is rather thin, EDIT: while your maintenance lifetime is rather high!

[Zook]

-Should my passive sensors have seen them before that? Should I have been running with active sensors on?
- I launched my ASMs and started waiting for the 20 minutes it would take for them to arrive.
- Suddenly their AMMs started exploding on my escorts.   It's scary to see that "nuclear detonation x64" message.   But I didn't see their missiles in flight at all.   Shouldn't I have seen those? Their flight time can't have been so fast they made it in 5 s?
- My escorts didn't fire their AMMs at all.   I had them set to 3vs1 point defense mode in the combat screen, and the missiles were listed as ready to fire.   Was there something else I needed to do?
- How does one penetrate AMM screens?

- Your ships do have passive sensors, but only the default strength-1 EM and thermals that every ship has (that's what "Sensors 1/1/0/0" means). If the other guys have better tech, they'll probably see you before you do, anyway. Having a dedicated sensor ship with large thermals might help if you want to stay unseen.
- The 20 min were the maximum flight time of your missiles, not time-to-impact.
- There's a rather beautifully crafted wiki page on active sensors: http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Active_Sensor_Design
- Penetrate missile screens with many missiles at once so some get through, i.e. many launchers, or laaaarge magazines, so the other guys run out of ammo. Eventually.
- Reduzed-size launchers are mainly for FACs or fighters, where weight is at a premium and reload times don't matter much because you launch only one salvo anyway.
- The Uadjet has a range of 6.7m but low hit chances. 2m is plenty for low-tech AMM. An enemy ASM might have a speed of 30,000+, so your missile would have a 10% chance to hit. That's almost worthless. Also, research Reload time. It's less important for ASMs, but you want at least 10 sec reload time on your size-1 launchers.
- WH 8 is sub-optimal. Try to find the damage page on the wiki (I swear there is one). Go for square numbers: 1,4,9,16...
- Armor is your friend. Speed is less important if you're the slowest kid on the block anyway.

[Zeebie (OP)]

Thanks folks!

[Konisforce]

To answer a couple of the "am I normal" questions -

You should see their incoming missiles (ASM or AMM, either ones) but that's what the Res 1 sensor is for, as people have been saying.  Be warned, though - getting decent range on a res 1 sensor at low techs means that the bugger could end up pretty big.  Probably too big to throw on each of your escorts without massing it out of where you want it to be.  One solution is to make a dedicated sensor ship.  Have a couple spares, though, because active sensor ships are target number 1 for the other guys.

Other solution to the massive Res 1 issue is to cut down the range some.  6.7m km is quite far out to start intercepting the other guy's missiles, particularly if you are at low tech levels like you say, but Zook mentioned that one already.

Regarding seeing the other guy's AMMs that are picking apart your ASMs - Nope.  You shouldn't see those.  If you see the other guy's AMMs doing PD for his fleet, then either a) yer too close, or b) yer res 1 sensor is WAY too powerful.

1 more thing - correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you're using civilian engines in those ships.  IIRC, standard power for an Ion Mil in about 60, and for a civ is 150.  True, the civ engine gives more power, but weighs a lot more.  You could put in mil 5 engines (I think) for the same weight as 1 civ engine, and get double the power.  You'll have higher fuel consumption too, of course.  Maybe that's what you were going for, in which case, nevermind.  But mass is usually at a premium on ships, particularly low tech where things are bulkier, and fuel's not an issue.  Even if it were, the ranges for those ships are pretty freakin' huge.  50 bil is good enough for local-to-mid range defensive fleets.