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Starfire > Starfire Rules
Mines and fXr equipped Pn/APn/GB
Paul M:
In the rules on mines 27.08.05.8:
27.08.05.8 Minefields ignore fighters, DSB, RD, RD2, cutters and
shuttles. Fighters and small craft are unable to engage mines
because if one was to get close enough to do so, a pair of mines
would attack it and automatically kill it (small craft D-equivalent
is not effective against MF). Pinnaces and Courier Drones have
drive fields as bright as pods do and are attacked as such unless
they have fXr, in which case they can see the mines at range 0 and
avoid them.
The point in bold is the issue, does anyone know how to use that in game? Mechanically I mean. Can a Pn2 enter a MF hex, without being attacked? Can it remain in the hex without being attacked? Can it leave the hex without being attacked? How do I move a Pn2 (with fXr) in a situation with MFs is basically what I can't figure out.
This apparently doesn't count with GBs which also have fXr. But it also means that GBs would not be able to mine sweep or be considered minesweepers and so as I was pointing out to Starslayer the chance of the GBs Dx or Dxz intercepting a mine is -2 from the base chance and a single roll is made. Targeting is not effective against mines, nor are datalinked point defence. Targeting is multiple shots against the same inbound just incase that isn't clear. Neither are small craft point defence...not to put to fine a point on it. The game doesn't do this but the mine rules would say that gunboats should die in job lots to mine fields. From a balance point of view that sucks so the rules were "adjusted" it seems.
I assume for the sake of argument that fighters and ast with fXr can count mines at range 0. I'm utterly uncertain if they would otherwise detect them, I have always assumed not.
The PGBs in our game are causing fairly sever holy havok but they are also taking ever increasing losses. The Shanirians are still 2 TL from them so have to see how that goes.
Starslayer_D:
Heh, the PGB may cause holy havock if spend recklessly. In the last battle I used them far more cautiously, which resulted in them being lost approximately in same amounts as their carriers, but alos causing far less damage and only used mopping up instead of softening things up.
replacing 400 PGB costs 32000 MCrs... ouch. Though replacing 2 SD, 3 BB, 3 BC costs not uch less, amunition included.
As to the GB.. if they can enter minesweeping mode, they loose the -2. But can they if they can only detect mines at 0? And apn and pn2 sure would love to bypass minefields.
Also established: Don't face GB without Second generation IDEW and their control upgrade.. else one can waste a lot of shots on gun boats. On the other hand, a lot of cheap idew-l or so may be just the backup a minefield needs to reduce GB numbers.
Hmm.. an idea for the undines next defense setup.
MWadwell:
--- Quote from: Paul M on November 05, 2014, 03:18:23 AM ---In the rules on mines 27.08.05.8:
27.08.05.8 Minefields ignore fighters, DSB, RD, RD2, cutters and shuttles. Fighters and small craft are unable to engage mines because if one was to get close enough to do so, a pair of mines would attack it and automatically kill it (small craft D-equivalent is not effective against MF). Pinnaces and Courier Drones have drive fields as bright as pods do and are attacked as such unless they have fXr, in which case they can see the mines at range 0 and avoid them.
The point in bold is the issue, does anyone know how to use that in game? Mechanically I mean. Can a Pn2 enter a MF hex, without being attacked? Can it remain in the hex without being attacked? Can it leave the hex without being attacked? How do I move a Pn2 (with fXr) in a situation with MFs is basically what I can't figure out.
--- End quote ---
Well, minefields only attack "large spacecraft" (see 04.18.02.2 - R3rd ed page 35) - which does not include gunboats or pinnaces (see 01.05.02).
So, I would say that the pn2(fXr) can move freely, without being attacked. Note: As they are not attacked, the MF is not used up (i.e. swept).
--- Quote ---This apparently doesn't count with GBs which also have fXr. But it also means that GBs would not be able to mine sweep or be considered minesweepers and so as I was pointing out to Starslayer the chance of the GBs Dx or Dxz intercepting a mine is -2 from the base chance and a single roll is made. Targeting is not effective against mines, nor are datalinked point defence. Targeting is multiple shots against the same inbound just incase that isn't clear. Neither are small craft point defence...not to put to fine a point on it. The game doesn't do this but the mine rules would say that gunboats should die in job lots to mine fields. From a balance point of view that sucks so the rules were "adjusted" it seems.
I assume for the sake of argument that fighters and ast with fXr can count mines at range 0. I'm utterly uncertain if they would otherwise detect them, I have always assumed not.
The PGBs in our game are causing fairly sever holy havok but they are also taking ever increasing losses. The Shanirians are still 2 TL from them so have to see how that goes.
--- End quote ---
I would say that the gunboat equipped with fXr are considered the same as the pinnace - i.e. it can avoid the attack, and so can move freely through the MF. However, those without fXr would be attacked, and as they can't use their point defence against the mines (as gunboats are a type of small craft, and as per 27.08.05.5, they are automatically killed by a pair of mines), they would die in droves....
Paul M:
Oh wow...thanks Matt. That means fXr equipped APn can move through mines with impunity. That may have dire consiquences. Admittedly though they have to give up half their weapon load and the fXr is not cheap, so this may balance out.
Gunboats are detected as large units and there is seperate rules for how they are treated by mines. It also means that they are targets for IDEW/DSB-L. Under those seperate rules the mines treat the gunboat squadron as a ship, fire 10 mines at it, and then a whole bunch of nonsense comes into play as you then roll a d10 for each GB in the squadron and on basically a 0 (most of the time), 1 (rarely) or 3 (very rarely) you kill a gunboat. The base number is 1, if the gunboat has any level of EM it is -1 and on the turn of tranist it is +2 (or +1).
As I said to starslayer, they basically tossed out every rule that existed for minefields, ignored how the tech systems work (as datalinked point defence is useless against mine attacks), and played fast and loose all over the place with gunboats. Under the mine rules gunboats should die hard to a mine field as any failure to intercept the mine is destruction...pretty much exactly like what would happen to EX class ship trying to force a minefield. But on the other hand that would make gunboats hard to employ in WP assaults as they are described in the books. Though admittely it is rarely true the gunboats are thrown at intact minefields in the books if my memory is correct. Even at Alpha C I thought the light cruisers forced the mines then the gunboats charged through the gaps...will go re-read.
MWadwell:
--- Quote from: Paul M on November 15, 2014, 02:07:00 AM ---Oh wow...thanks Matt. That means fXr equipped APn can move through mines with impunity. That may have dire consiquences. Admittedly though they have to give up half their weapon load and the fXr is not cheap, so this may balance out.
--- End quote ---
True - the cost in weapons loadout and cost dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the gunboats and Apn.
--- Quote ---Gunboats are detected as large units and there is seperate rules for how they are treated by mines. It also means that they are targets for IDEW/DSB-L. Under those seperate rules the mines treat the gunboat squadron as a ship, fire 10 mines at it, and then a whole bunch of nonsense comes into play as you then roll a d10 for each GB in the squadron and on basically a 0 (most of the time), 1 (rarely) or 3 (very rarely) you kill a gunboat. The base number is 1, if the gunboat has any level of EM it is -1 and on the turn of tranist it is +2 (or +1).
--- End quote ---
What rule is this from, as 27.08.05.8 states "Fighters and small craft are unable to engage mines, because if they were to get close enough to do so, a pair of mines would attack it and automatically kill it (small craft D-equivalent is not effective against MF)." As gunboats are treated as small craft, I would have thought that this rule describes how mines attack gunboats.
Also, 04.18.02.1 (Target Selection - IDEW) states that IDEW will only attack large spacecraft, not small craft (like gunboats).
So where did your description come from?
--- Quote ---As I said to starslayer, they basically tossed out every rule that existed for minefields, ignored how the tech systems work (as datalinked point defence is useless against mine attacks), and played fast and loose all over the place with gunboats. Under the mine rules gunboats should die hard to a mine field as any failure to intercept the mine is destruction...pretty much exactly like what would happen to EX class ship trying to force a minefield. But on the other hand that would make gunboats hard to employ in WP assaults as they are described in the books. Though admittely it is rarely true the gunboats are thrown at intact minefields in the books if my memory is correct. Even at Alpha C I thought the light cruisers forced the mines then the gunboats charged through the gaps...will go re-read.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, in Alpha C, the gunboats came in after the CL's had reduced the MF....
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