Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => C# Mechanics => Topic started by: davidr on June 01, 2020, 11:32:59 AM
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I have designed a Fuel Harvester and am now designing a Terraformer , both with no armour or engines so my construction factories can produce them. I have towed a couple of the Harvesters to Uranus to mine the Sorium.
My question is this - I have placed a CIWS and small sensors on the Installations . If I want to upgrade the components in the future how do I do this - or should I not have placed any upgradeable items on the Installations.
DavidR
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To refit you will need a shipyard that is large enough.
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DFNewb,
Thanks - but if I need a large enough Yard to upgrade the components is it still worthwhile using Construction Factories to build the Installation first rather than using a Yard to both build and refit.
DavidR
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I personally think that it is not worth it to refit comercial stations. If your comercial station needs to use sensors or CIWS you made a big mistake that CIWS or small sensor will not solve.
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What black said. Unless you install a ton of CIWS.... but then you spent a LOT on them, and a single small beam warship will still wreck those stations.
If you want protection, build a military base and tow it there. But a much better solution is making sure your enemies never reach the system where you have such valuable orbitals anyway...
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I would think that even if certain peripheral parts are obsolete, you won't be in a great hurry to drag your stations back to base and refit them anyhow. Just deploy the older ones in safer areas. (And as the others say, don't deploy any of them in areas where you expect to actually use CIWS or small sensors, because that's suicidal.)
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DFNewb,
Thanks - but if I need a large enough Yard to upgrade the components is it still worthwhile using Construction Factories to build the Installation first rather than using a Yard to both build and refit.
DavidR
You will still build it much faster with factories.
There are two benefits of building these with a yard:
1) You get to use your factories to build other things during that time.
2) You make a lot of wealth from the yard workers. A 250kT commercial yard employs 6.25M pop per slip. That's a lot of worker taxes.
All that said, it's a massive investment to build such a yard, and it would take a long time for the income to pay you back.
Personally, throw a lot of extras on my enormous stations.
Usually sensors (all three types) and a fuel tank and a refueling system, at the least.
My rule of thumb is that if it adds less than 1% to the cost and weight, and it might ever be useful at some point, I throw it on there.
But I don't think I would ever bother to refit them. They are just nice-to-have little extras on the design. Not worth the hassle of trying to upgrade them later.
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DFNewb,
Thanks - but if I need a large enough Yard to upgrade the components is it still worthwhile using Construction Factories to build the Installation first rather than using a Yard to both build and refit.
DavidR
You will still build it much faster with factories.
There are two benefits of building these with a yard:
1) You get to use your factories to build other things during that time.
2) You make a lot of wealth from the yard workers. A 250kT commercial yard employs 6.25M pop per slip. That's a lot of worker taxes.
All that said, it's a massive investment to build such a yard, and it would take a long time for the income to pay you back.
Personally, throw a lot of extras on my enormous stations.
Usually sensors (all three types) and a fuel tank and a refueling system, at the least.
My rule of thumb is that if it adds less than 1% to the cost and weight, and it might ever be useful at some point, I throw it on there.
But I don't think I would ever bother to refit them. They are just nice-to-have little extras on the design. Not worth the hassle of trying to upgrade them later.
A bit off-topic but I think we really could use a "Retire" button for stations and also to self destruct buoys.
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DFNewb,
Thanks - but if I need a large enough Yard to upgrade the components is it still worthwhile using Construction Factories to build the Installation first rather than using a Yard to both build and refit.
DavidR
There are a lot of minerals in a station. Better to scrap it when it is obsolete. Best to build them to last.
You will still build it much faster with factories.
There are two benefits of building these with a yard:
1) You get to use your factories to build other things during that time.
2) You make a lot of wealth from the yard workers. A 250kT commercial yard employs 6.25M pop per slip. That's a lot of worker taxes.
All that said, it's a massive investment to build such a yard, and it would take a long time for the income to pay you back.
Personally, throw a lot of extras on my enormous stations.
Usually sensors (all three types) and a fuel tank and a refueling system, at the least.
My rule of thumb is that if it adds less than 1% to the cost and weight, and it might ever be useful at some point, I throw it on there.
But I don't think I would ever bother to refit them. They are just nice-to-have little extras on the design. Not worth the hassle of trying to upgrade them later.
A bit off-topic but I think we really could use a "Retire" button for stations and also to self destruct buoys.
Edit:Somehow my comment got cut off. As the biggest advantage of stations is that they don't need shipyards, I'd like to be able to refit/scrap them using industry. Refitting fighters with fighter factories as well.
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.
...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.
...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.
My orbitals feel cramped at 600k-700k tons, but I like to keep them under 1.5 million. A shipyard that big is expensive.
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.
...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.
I only ever build stations if I can't build a large enough ship to accomplish my goals. In this case my station is about 500k tons and my largest shipyard is about 200k tons, so shipyard scrapping is not an option.
Fortunately it is a commercial station so it's maintenance costs are trivial.
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.
...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.
My orbitals feel cramped at 600k-700k tons, but I like to keep them under 1.5 million. A shipyard that big is expensive.
Do you put many habitats in it to make them that big?
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.
...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.
My orbitals feel cramped at 600k-700k tons, but I like to keep them under 1.5 million. A shipyard that big is expensive.
Do you put many habitats in it to make them that big?
I haven't built a habitat since VB.
These are what I like to build, but I have to cut them down to half size to afford one of each at game start. I'd go larger but the tug requirements start adding up.
Genesis class Terraformer 1,259,923 tons 5,010 Crew 26,527 BP TCS 25,198 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s No Armour Shields 0-0 HTK 646 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 13 Max Repair 500 MSP
Drengr Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Terraformer: 50 modules producing 0.0125 atm per annum
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
It takes one of my tankers two trips to unload this thing once per year.
Cloud City class Gas Miner 1,385,093 tons 5,010 Crew 19,055.3 BP TCS 27,702 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s No Armour Shields 0-0 HTK 2656 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 8 Max Repair 2400 MSP
Drengr Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Fuel Harvester: 500 modules producing 20,000,000 litres per annum
Refuelling Hub - Capable of refuelling multiple ships simultaneously
Fuel Capacity 25,000,000 Litres Range N/A
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
The cargo bay is a convenience feature to move a mass driver, but that could be done by civilians instead. I'm still debating the merits, since a high yield body might need two of them. The 100 module unit mini is handy to haul out to distant asteroids or comets.
Valhalla Tower class Orbital Miner 1,296,313 tons 12,525 Crew 33,766 BP TCS 25,926 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s No Armour Shields 0-0 HTK 1615 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 16 Max Repair 120 MSP
Cargo 25,000 Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 1
Drengr Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Orbital Miner: 250 modules producing 2,500 tons per mineral per annum
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
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Do you play long games?
Because the last research is 280k liters of fuel produced, so potentially you will mine 140m liters (!!!) of fuel per annum while only having storage for 25m, which means you will need to ship it all off in less than 2 months or you will stop producing.
You could potentially make it a lot smaller (while still being big compared to ships), which would make it easier and cheaper to manufacture as well as transport.
Funny thing is, the one station where size matters the whole time (and probably more for early than late game) is about half the size I would expect (terraformer). Dunno how much you use it ofc, but if you have it you probably do some so doing it faster might be really useful to you in that case.
Also, my best tip for big stations: Don't forget to count in commander bonus, I always forget this one. For such behemoths scaling back a bit to account for that (and still getting your desired result) can save a lot of the cost.
I am not criticising btw, just asking for more explanation in the general design idea!
Edit:
The cargo on orbital miner is a great idea, while yes, normal ship can carry that mass driver, it is much more efficient to do it like you do. Gonna update my design asap, thanks! ;D
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Do you play long games?
Because the last research is 280k liters of fuel produced, so potentially you will mine 140m liters (!!!) of fuel per annum while only having storage for 25m, which means you will need to ship it all off in less than 2 months or you will stop producing.
You could potentially make it a lot smaller (while still being big compared to ships), which would make it easier and cheaper to manufacture as well as transport.
Funny thing is, the one station where size matters the whole time (and probably more for early than late game) is about half the size I would expect (terraformer). Dunno how much you use it ofc, but if you have it you probably do some so doing it faster might be really useful to you in that case.
Also, my best tip for big stations: Don't forget to count in commander bonus, I always forget this one. For such behemoths scaling back a bit to account for that (and still getting your desired result) can save a lot of the cost.
I am not criticising btw, just asking for more explanation in the general design idea!
Edit:
The cargo on orbital miner is a great idea, while yes, normal ship can carry that mass driver, it is much more efficient to do it like you do. Gonna update my design asap, thanks! ;D
I have yet to reach last-tech without using SM mode so it has never come up, but if a 'refuel until full' order ever gets implemented then a two month round trip will be plenty of time for delivery with a reasonable tanker. *crosses fingers*
I like to get every non-LG world except Venus down to colony cost 0, and have a personal goal of getting Venus itself done some day. I start with Luna and use the freed up infrastructure as seed for the rest of Sol, then move on to Mercury and Mars before starting on the Jovian moons. The last couple of games I've started with a 25 module unit, but 50 is what I've done in the past, at the expense of starting with a half-size gas miner and no orbital miner. While I'd prefer an even 100, 2 million tons is getting too big for a 60k ton tug. As it is even the #25 can be tricky to park on Mercury.
I'm not certain what you mean about limiting size to take advantage of the commander bonus. Commanders with good terraforming bonuses aren't exactly common, which is why I go big on these instead of making swarms. A commander with a 25% bonus on a #50 effectively gives you 12.5 free modules, while on a #100 it would be 25.
The cargo bay is great until the mining site has good enough availability to require multiple mass drivers, but that is just a petty nuisance rather than an actual problem. I wouldn't even consider them if the break-even point on Automines wasn't so long.
Aside from orbital miners, which take effort to get too many of, I don't like having more than one or two of these working in the same system. The gas miner should be enough to comfortably supply fuel to an entire sector by itself.
There is nothing wrong with valid criticism. It is how we improve.
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I think it might be possible to order an 'abandon station' order and then salvage the station wreck. I haven't yet tested this but I plan on doing this with my fuel harvester station now that I have depleted all sorium in my home system.
If you've got a big enough civilian ship yard you could probably just drag it over and order it scrapped that way. I don't know how big you build your stations, mine mostly aren't really that big compared to even minimalist cargo ships.
...Well, so far. Once I start building orbital habitats I guess that'll be another story.
My orbitals feel cramped at 600k-700k tons, but I like to keep them under 1.5 million. A shipyard that big is expensive.
Do you put many habitats in it to make them that big?
I haven't built a habitat since VB.
These are what I like to build, but I have to cut them down to half size to afford one of each at game start. I'd go larger but the tug requirements start adding up.
Genesis class Terraformer 1,259,923 tons 5,010 Crew 26,527 BP TCS 25,198 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s No Armour Shields 0-0 HTK 646 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 13 Max Repair 500 MSP
Drengr Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Terraformer: 50 modules producing 0.0125 atm per annum
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
It takes one of my tankers two trips to unload this thing once per year.
Cloud City class Gas Miner 1,385,093 tons 5,010 Crew 19,055.3 BP TCS 27,702 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s No Armour Shields 0-0 HTK 2656 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 8 Max Repair 2400 MSP
Drengr Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Fuel Harvester: 500 modules producing 20,000,000 litres per annum
Refuelling Hub - Capable of refuelling multiple ships simultaneously
Fuel Capacity 25,000,000 Litres Range N/A
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
The cargo bay is a convenience feature to move a mass driver, but that could be done by civilians instead. I'm still debating the merits, since a high yield body might need two of them. The 100 module unit mini is handy to haul out to distant asteroids or comets.
Valhalla Tower class Orbital Miner 1,296,313 tons 12,525 Crew 33,766 BP TCS 25,926 TH 0 EM 0
1 km/s No Armour Shields 0-0 HTK 1615 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 16 Max Repair 120 MSP
Cargo 25,000 Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 1
Drengr Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
Orbital Miner: 250 modules producing 2,500 tons per mineral per annum
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
Spike ,
Please could you give details of the Tug needed to move these 1M plus installations - mine struggle to move 76,000 tons , never mind over 1M
DavidR
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It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.
Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?
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It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.
Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?
This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.
Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.
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Spike ,
Please could you give details of the Tug needed to move these 1M plus installations - mine struggle to move 76,000 tons , never mind over 1M
DavidR
This is what I use to move 1m ton stations:
Herakles class Tug 62,798 tons 500 Crew 902.7 BP TCS 1,256 TH 2,400 EM 0
1910 km/s Armour 1-140 Shields 0-0 HTK 163 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 8 Max Repair 100 MSP
Tractor Beam
Kaigun-Ch?sa Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
60HS 120EP 3.47L/h (20) Power 2400 Fuel Use 2.89% Signature 120 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres Range 29.7 billion km (180 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
If I'm starting with half-size units then the tug gets cut down as well.
Herakles class Tug 31,973 tons 260 Crew 539.7 BP TCS 639 TH 1,200 EM 0
1876 km/s Armour 1-89 Shields 0-0 HTK 85 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 1 PPV 0
MSP 10 Max Repair 100 MSP
Tractor Beam
Kaigun-Ch?sa Control Rating 1 BRG
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months
60HS 120EP 3.47L/h (10) Power 1200 Fuel Use 2.89% Signature 120 Explosion 4%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres Range 48.7 billion km (300 days at full power)
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
Intercepting fast moving worlds like Mercury takes a little patience to set up and can get annoying when you miss but other than that these work okay. Stations don't get moved very often so one tug can easily handle a few systems by itself.
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It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.
Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?
This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.
Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.
This. Do not shy away from SM mode thinking of it as cheating mode. It sort of is, but only if you do actually cheat. SM is VERY essential for RPing or fixing broken/not implemented stuff, because the game obviously cannot accommodate every situation and mechanic possible.
Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.
Edit2:
One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. ;D
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Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.
Wow. It must really take a hit on your gallicite stockpile to produce those. Thankfully we rarely need too many of them. So far I have build my tugs and orbital habitats at about 2/5 of the sizes to you mention here.
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One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. ;D
Should be really simple actually, all the engine math is when you look at it.
Range for a loaded tug should be equal to the unloaded tug's range times the tug mass divided by the combined mass of tug and payload. Just like speed!
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One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. ;D
So you are using a 100kT tug to move a 2500kT (= 2.5MT) station.
The station is 25x the size of the tug, so when you are moving the station you are using fuel at 26x your normal rate.
So for a round trip of distance D each way, you are spending 26x normal fuel to tow the station there, and 1x normal fuel to tow the station back.
This would be equivalent to spending normal fuel to travel D distance 27 times.
So, divide your tug's range (as reported in the Class Design) by 27.
That's the maximum distance your tug can reach while towing a station, and still have enough fuel to return.
You can increase that operational range by adding some fuel tanks and a refueling module to the station.
On a station of that size, you can add quite a bit of fuel for just a tiny percentage of the cost of the station.
Make sure to mark the station design as a tanker, and give it an appropriate minimum fuel amount. If you otherwise do not intend to use the station for refuelling, make the minimum fuel amount 1 so that it doesn't slurp up fuel every time you build one. Then, each time you build one, give it refuel orders at the planet, and cut it off when it has the fuel you need for this particular towing mission.
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Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.
Wow. It must really take a hit on your gallicite stockpile to produce those. Thankfully we rarely need too many of them. So far I have build my tugs and orbital habitats at about 2/5 of the sizes to you mention here.
I usually have 2 of them at most, and I could probably do fine with a single one too (the second one is basically *just in case* and for redundancy).
I like cutting down on micro, which means building BIG. Tugs tie in nicely into this, since even though such tug is expensive, the more stations I get the better value it ends up being. And while my Terraformer might end up being 2.5mt+, he is also about 3-4x bigger than Sorium Harvester and 5 times bigger than orbital Miner, so nothing bigger should ever need tugging. Thankfully ;D
Edit:
I usually don't use Orbital Habs. If I ever get there (needs long enough game or good conditions for it to happen) it certainly would be much bigger. I remember the 13mt one felt kinda small ;D
Edit2:
Thanks everyone for the math, I hate math so much appreciated.
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It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.
Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?
This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.
Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.
This. Do not shy away from SM mode thinking of it as cheating mode. It sort of is, but only if you do actually cheat. SM is VERY essential for RPing or fixing broken/not implemented stuff, because the game obviously cannot accommodate every situation and mechanic possible.
Edit:
I probably overdo my Tugs, cause they are usually 95% or so Engine. Like my 100kt one (99.970) has 7200 power at Ion tech. Yet it moves my 2.5m terraformer at only 138km/s, which is serviceable, thankfully it will improve a lot with better engine tech (the size of terraformer does not need to change since tech applies automatically) due to better power:weight ratio.
Edit2:
One thing I am still not sure though is about the fuel consumption of a Tug. The easy part is X b km at full power. The thing I wonder though is whether while moving something really heavy, thus being at full power, but at much slower speed the range goes down (logically it should, and by a LOT). Though if it does I would be unable to calculate it anyway, so I just stick about 200b range to be sure. ;D
In fairness, using SM mode as intended takes some getting used to. It is a completely different mentality than most games, akin to the GM console mode in some old RPGs like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.
90-95% engine is about what a tug should be, with the ratio improving as they get larger. I just wish that I could turn half of them off when the tug is transiting unloaded to save fuel.
As the others said: TugRange * TugMass / (TugMass+StationMass)
@skoormit Unless the station is meant to be a gas miner or refuelling station adding fuel tanks is unnecessary dead-weight. That is what tankers and in-transit refuelling are for.
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@skoormit Unless the station is meant to be a gas miner or refuelling station adding fuel tanks is unnecessary dead-weight. That is what tankers and in-transit refuelling are for.
On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
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As the others said: TugRange * TugMass / (TugMass+StationMass)
That gives the one-way range while towing.
Usually I'm more interested in the round trip range (towing on one leg of the trip), which is:
TugRange * TugMass / (2 x TugMass + StationMass)
Or more simply:
TugRange / ( 2 + StationMass/TugMass)
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On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.
That gives the one-way range while towing.
Usually I'm more interested in the round trip range (towing on one leg of the trip), which is:
TugRange * TugMass / (2 x TugMass + StationMass)
Or more simply:
TugRange / ( 2 + StationMass/TugMass)
Point.
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On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.
Since we both seem happy to whittle away at this exceedingly fine point, I'll follow up on this.
You provide an interesting alternative.
A tanker does provide a lot more flexibility. It can go off and refuel itself if needed, or go refill an empty fleet, or perform an emergency lifepod rescue, among other things.
Let's suppose our station has 500 orbital mining modules (plus the de rigueur bridge and engineering space).
In my Add-Fuel-To-Huge-Stations plan, I add a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large.
Station weight and cost: 2,541,848 tons; 67,353 BP.
In your Fuel-Tankers-Sold-Separately plan, nothing is added to the station.
Station weight and cost: 2,540,317 tons; 67,326.9 BP.
My extra cost is 26.1BP per station.
My station weighs .06% more. Effectively zero change in tug speed.
Let's say a cheap tanker has a single size-25 engine @30% power, plus a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large (same as I put on my station).
At Improved Nuclear Pulse tech, the engine costs 11.25 BP. The tanker moves 1492km/s and has a nominal range of 2,871.4Bkm.
It's not a great design for long-range fuel hauling (too much fuel burned vs hauled on long trips) or for military fleet logistics (too slow, too small). But it is cheap, and if our only intended use is to park it near our orbital fleets, it's fine.
Tanker weight and cost: 2,513 tons; 72.7 BP.
You wouldn't quite be able to afford one with the savings from two stations--you'd need ~2.8. But for what I assume was top-of-the-head, back-of-the-napkin guesstimating, you were close enough to be called correct.
There is the cost of the shipyard to consider.
2400 BP is quite a hole to crawl out of.
If you are making this shipyard just to avoid putting fuel tanks on big stations, I'd say it's never going to be worth it.
But the shipyard employs a quarter-million workers. If you have more workers than you have others uses for, this is a boon. You make worker taxes from it.
(If you have a worker shortage, on the other hand, this is a problem. Also, please tell me how you manage to have a worker shortage. I can never create jobs fast enough in my empires.)
At the end of the day, it probably just comes down to playstyle. I like the simplicity of having an emergency fuel tank on my orbital stations. I have enough other tankers moving around my systems that the extra flexibility of parking a cheap tanker with my orbital fleet isn't going to add much value.
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But if you were roleplaying, there would be probably merit in avoiding to put dangerous fuel on such a civilian station ;D
Actually.... is TN fuel even dangerous? :o
Jokes aside, the question in interesting. With the fact that we now need a refueling system for fuel transfer and can build these stations with industry, I believe it does make sense to have at least some fuel capacity and a refueling system on them, unless you're 100% sure that won't be needed. But...
I'm thinking of edge cases here, a warship or a civilian ship might get stranded close by, or your tankers be destroyed.
Since you can no longer transfer fuel between ships normally, having this capability on stations make sense. It can serve as a last ditch alternative in case you need it, and the cost to have this alternative is negligible compared to the cost of the station itself.
This is of course only true with large or very large stations. In case smller stations are used, then yes the added cost could be significant.
... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...
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...
... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...
It can even be efficient, though only if you can live with another ship class for very similar role.
I sometimes use 2 tanker classes. Smaller and faster one that usually transports fuel from harvesters to colony or between colonies plus works as a fuel rat. And a much bigger and slower one with armour, some CIWS, a lot more fuel capacity to refuel fleet and also has rescue ability for survivors (I hate having extra ship for that). Works like charm.
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On a large enough station, so what?
Adding a refuelling system and 1ML tank to a 2.5MT station increases the size and cost by less than 0.1%.
So, sure, by the time you build 999 of these, you could have built one more if you hadn't been so wasteful.
OTOH, if just once it comes in handy to have that fuel available, it was probably worth it.
But by the second one you could have paid for the tanker, which is useful on its own.
Since we both seem happy to whittle away at this exceedingly fine point, I'll follow up on this.
You provide an interesting alternative.
A tanker does provide a lot more flexibility. It can go off and refuel itself if needed, or go refill an empty fleet, or perform an emergency lifepod rescue, among other things.
Let's suppose our station has 500 orbital mining modules (plus the de rigueur bridge and engineering space).
In my Add-Fuel-To-Huge-Stations plan, I add a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large.
Station weight and cost: 2,541,848 tons; 67,353 BP.
In your Fuel-Tankers-Sold-Separately plan, nothing is added to the station.
Station weight and cost: 2,540,317 tons; 67,326.9 BP.
My extra cost is 26.1BP per station.
My station weighs .06% more. Effectively zero change in tug speed.
Let's say a cheap tanker has a single size-25 engine @30% power, plus a refueling system and a Fuel Storage - Very Large (same as I put on my station).
At Improved Nuclear Pulse tech, the engine costs 11.25 BP. The tanker moves 1492km/s and has a nominal range of 2,871.4Bkm.
It's not a great design for long-range fuel hauling (too much fuel burned vs hauled on long trips) or for military fleet logistics (too slow, too small). But it is cheap, and if our only intended use is to park it near our orbital fleets, it's fine.
Tanker weight and cost: 2,513 tons; 72.7 BP.
You wouldn't quite be able to afford one with the savings from two stations--you'd need ~2.8. But for what I assume was top-of-the-head, back-of-the-napkin guesstimating, you were close enough to be called correct.
There is the cost of the shipyard to consider.
2400 BP is quite a hole to crawl out of.
If you are making this shipyard just to avoid putting fuel tanks on big stations, I'd say it's never going to be worth it.
But the shipyard employs a quarter-million workers. If you have more workers than you have others uses for, this is a boon. You make worker taxes from it.
(If you have a worker shortage, on the other hand, this is a problem. Also, please tell me how you manage to have a worker shortage. I can never create jobs fast enough in my empires.)
At the end of the day, it probably just comes down to playstyle. I like the simplicity of having an emergency fuel tank on my orbital stations. I have enough other tankers moving around my systems that the extra flexibility of parking a cheap tanker with my orbital fleet isn't going to add much value.
If we whittle it fine enough, do you think we could kill EndbringersSpoilers with it?
This argument assumes that we a) use a custom tanker design for this and b) use a dedicated tanker for the orbital fleet.
counter-a) You have a shipyard for your existing tanker fleet. There is no need for a custom design.
counter-b) Unless your tug is constantly on long haul duty, in which case it could be argued* that it is under-tanked, then occasionally pulling an idle tanker from your existing fleet should not be onerous as you need some spare tanker capacity anyway to deal with peak demands.
*A ready counter argument is that having support tankers work in shifts for very long hauls may be more efficient than having sufficient tankage on the tug and it allows the tug to remain in the field without needing to return for fuel.
But if you were roleplaying, there would be probably merit in avoiding to put dangerous fuel on such a civilian station ;D
Actually.... is TN fuel even dangerous? :o
Jokes aside, the question in interesting. With the fact that we now need a refueling system for fuel transfer and can build these stations with industry, I believe it does make sense to have at least some fuel capacity and a refueling system on them, unless you're 100% sure that won't be needed. But...
I'm thinking of edge cases here, a warship or a civilian ship might get stranded close by, or your tankers be destroyed.
Since you can no longer transfer fuel between ships normally, having this capability on stations make sense. It can serve as a last ditch alternative in case you need it, and the cost to have this alternative is negligible compared to the cost of the station itself.
This is of course only true with large or very large stations. In case smller stations are used, then yes the added cost could be significant.
... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...
In my experience if you've lost all of your tankers and tugs to enemy action then refuelling is the least of your problems.
A station can only move at 1 km/s, so unless the stranded ship is very close by it would probably be faster to build a new tanker or tug.
If you want refuelling capability on a body then it is simpler to drop a refuelling facility on it and truck some fuel over. If you used TN start then you even get one for free.
It wasn't required in VB but combat tankers weren't exactly unheard of either.
...
... on a side note, I'm actually considering having a "refueling warship" for my next campaign. Basically, a tanker but with enough armor, defenses and speed to travel with the fleet. Maybe not all that great if we only look at efficiency, but for roleplay it does make sense. I never did something like this in vb aurora, it was not needed. But now...
It can even be efficient, though only if you can live with another ship class for very similar role.
I sometimes use 2 tanker classes. Smaller and faster one that usually transports fuel from harvesters to colony or between colonies plus works as a fuel rat. And a much bigger and slower one with armour, some CIWS, a lot more fuel capacity to refuel fleet and also has rescue ability for survivors (I hate having extra ship for that). Works like charm.
I used to use four tanker classes:
a) Big, max efficiency tanker for fuel harvesters.
b) Big, fast jump tanker for battle fleet support.
c) Small (3kt), jump tankers for survey fleet support. (No longer viable because military jump drives don't work with commercial engines any more.)
d) Small (500t) fast tactical tankers for FAC/fighter support. (No longer viable due to fuel system tonnage.)
I miss my smol tankers. :(
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But if you were roleplaying, there would be probably merit in avoiding to put dangerous fuel on such a civilian station ;D
Actually.... is TN fuel even dangerous? :o
It isn't. The engines on the other hand...
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It doesn't make sense to me that you can build stations from factories but cant modify or scrap them from said factories. I build million-ton terraforming stations, I'm certainly never going to have a million ton yard anytime soon.
Same for fighters; why can you build them using fighter factories but need whole yards to scrap or repair just one?
This is the kind of thing that SM mode is for.
Want to refit your big station?
Drag it back to a factory location, build the new components, delete the old ship, and SM-add the new one.
Well, I did end up doing that just without jumping through all those hoops...
But its still not cheating, right?
But seriously, I think that stations, fighters, and ground units (expecially ground units) should all be able to refit and repair from their designated factories.