Guided Railguns

[nichaey (OP)]

The idea of guided railguns popped up in another topic (I looked for the quote, but it was messy in there)
Now I remember a fiction, whose name escapes me, used TN materials to treat space like a liquid.

This made me think of the idea of a projectile type that would be treated as a missile, but would lose velocity over time due to not having thrust, thereby losing accuracy over distance.


discuss (constructively)

[dooots]

What do you gain from this?  Railguns have a max range of 1.8 mkm and only do 1 point of damage at that range.

[nichaey (OP)]

It doesn't need to have the same damage/range model of any current weapon....I was thinking that it would be more like a "cannon fired unpowered missile".

Ie it would behave almost exactly like a missile, only it would lose speed and accuracy over distance. But, it would have the advantage of being smaller and costing less, meaning you could fit more in your magazines as well.

I guess the name guided railguns is misleading, as its pretty much a variation of a missile.

[dooots]

I should have figured you meant a new weapon and in that case plasma torpedoes are what you are looking for.  Although you do have to take them from invaders which is not so easy.

[UnLimiTeD]

I find it rather awkward that you always have to capture those weapons from other races, prevents RPing some alien race with different tech.
I mean, you don't need to fight Star Swarm to gain access to mesons, now do you?

[symon]

The concept you want sounds a little like the Coilgun submunitions from 'Transhuman Space' (SJ Games).

In short the Coilgun is a launcher for submunitions. It gets the Submunition into proximity to the target, which then detonates. The warhead is either a cluster of kinetic kill penetrators or a bomb pumped X-Laser warhead.

[dooots]

I find it rather awkward that you always have to capture those weapons from other races, prevents RPing some alien race with different tech.
I mean, you don't need to fight Star Swarm to gain access to mesons, now do you?

I do agree that it would be nice if you could research them from the start but given that they are basically unlimited missiles that would probably make them the default starting weapon for everyone. Well unless the early techs really are not that great.

Hmm looking at the tech the first generation would only have a range of 400,000 km and rate of fire of 30 seconds and speed of 12,500 kms. The second generation would have a range of 1.2 mkm and a rate of fire of 20 seconds and a speed of 20,000 kms. (if I understand how they work correctly).

So maybe there should be an option to start with them instead of missiles?  Although all you really lose then is range unless the torpedoes have a low hit chance on missiles.

Edit:
If NPR's could make the same choice you also run the chance of running into an NPR with longer range torpedoes, and you lose the flexibility that missiles have (being able to trade stats for other stats).

Also plasma torpedoes do not lose accuracy over range like the OP's weapon so I guess it could be a different weapon all though I don't know how you would make it compete with plasma torpedoes.  Man I was being dense last night.

[nichaey (OP)]

Think of it like an engineless missile, perhaps it could use the existing missile design screens and everything. It would just be a variant, like a drone.
It would be fired from a specific launcher (like a missile launcher, only it would use power)

After it was fired it would lose velocity and accuracy but not damage over time.

It role would be to offer a missile substitute (although less effective) for those gallicite starved empire. The munitions would still have to be produced, but would be cheaper due to not having an engine.

[Charlie Beeler]

So far this has just been a relatively high level theory discussion vs a nuts n bolts how to implement discussion...  let's take a step back and discuss what's already in the game from a similiar point of view.

Currently there are 2 classes of weapons open to players at the start of the game:
  1) Direct fire beam weapons
  2) Seaking missiles

Direct fire beam weapons as a class:
  a) do not require ammunition
  b) in game scale are short ranged
  c)  in general use bore size to determine base damage
  d)  in general use focus control to determine maximum range
  e)  in general use capacitors to regulate cyclic rate
  f)  in general require energy from power plants
  g)  require beam fire control to engage targets
 
The beam fire control has a hard maximum range limit of 5 light seconds even though several beam weapons can be designed to have a greater range potential.  This has been covered in detail elsewhere and is only mentioned here as a known constraint.

Seaking missiles as a class:
  a) do require ammunition
  b) damage and range potential are functions of missile components and design
  c) cyclic rate is a function of launcher size and reload rate
  d) does not require seperate power
  e) requires missile fire control to engage targets

Missile fire control has no minimum or maximum range limit.  The only limiting factor is available sensor technology.

There is a third class of weapon that currently is only available through the Invader NPR race.  The class is a hybrid of the first two and currently the only weapon within it is the Plasma Torpedo.

Plasma Torpedoes as a class:
  a) do not require ammunition
  b) damage potential is based on designed warhead strength
  c) being a seeking weapon they have a speed component
  d) range is a function designed integrity and seeking speed
  e) cyclic rate is function of recharge rate.  This appears to be both a capacitor and an intgrated power plant.
  f) does not require a seperate power plant
  g) requires missile fire control to engage targets


With that laid out it sounds like the suggestion is for hybrid class that is accessable to the players from the start.  The only real issue I have with the suggestion is velocity degridation.  Outside of a nebula, within the scope of the game there isn't a reason for this degridation.

[UnLimiTeD]

Generally, it should be possible to research all weapons from the start, with penalties.
I think unlocking Plasma Torpedoes and Advanced beam weapons for around 100k tech points or maybe even a Million, would be the way to go to allow players to utilize the SM functions.
An alternative would be to let the player pick a racial Strenght at start, so you could RB different races, one of them has access to most beam weapons and missiles, like now, one focuses on advanced Lasers and Microwaves, but can't use missiles without capturing them (maybe originating in a nebula?), and one has Hybrid weapons (like the PT), but lacks access to Mesons and Lasers.

Also, given the Plasma Torpedo is essentially a Short range missile that requires energy instead of ammunition, shouldn't there be also a Beam weapon that requires Ammunition instead of energy?^^

[Charlie Beeler]

Generally, it should be possible to research all weapons from the start, with penalties.
I think unlocking Plasma Torpedoes and Advanced beam weapons for around 100k tech points or maybe even a Million, would be the way to go to allow players to utilize the SM functions.
An alternative would be to let the player pick a racial Strenght at start, so you could RB different races, one of them has access to most beam weapons and missiles, like now, one focuses on advanced Lasers and Microwaves, but can't use missiles without capturing them (maybe originating in a nebula?), and one has Hybrid weapons (like the PT), but lacks access to Mesons and Lasers.

Also, given the Plasma Torpedo is essentially a Short range missile that requires energy instead of ammunition, shouldn't there be also a Beam weapon that requires Ammunition instead of energy?^^

I'm definetly in the camp that not everything should be available to the player at game start.  I've made the suggestion in a couple of flavors to have a means to restrict a races starting tech even farther than it is currently.  So far, Steve has not been willing to implement.

If I recall correctly...both railguns and gauss cannons where proposed to have ammunition requirements that didn't make it to the final versions.  Personally it make sense to me that both should require ammunition since they are, using a broad brush stroke here, essentually mass drivers.

[nichaey (OP)]

Outside of a nebula, within the scope of the game there isn't a reason for this degridation.

I don't see putting warp drives on regular missiles as a doable thing, so there isn't a reason for the max speed on missiles (other then balance), other then "trans newtonian drag".

The main reason is for flavour though, as it would add a new level of defense/offense that would become more severe the closer fleets got to each other. I know this already happens to an extent with lasers, but this would be longer ranged.

To summarize

Guided mass drivers
-requires ammunition (less then missiles)
-in game would be medium-short to medium-long ranged (would have to be balanced)
-would have a variable initial launch velocity and variable drag. (perhaps a technology for each)
-range is based off of launch velocity and drag (self terminating once velocity reaches zero)
-cyclic rate would probably use capacitor recharge like missiles
-either seperate or built in power plant (whatever seems appropriate to steve)
-would require missile fire control

[Charlie Beeler]

Outside of a nebula, within the scope of the game there isn't a reason for this degridation.

I don't see putting warp drives on regular missiles as a doable thing, so there isn't a reason for the max speed on missiles (other then balance), other then "trans newtonian drag".

The main reason is for flavour though, as it would add a new level of defense/offense that would become more severe the closer fleets got to each other. I know this already happens to an extent with lasers, but this would be longer ranged.

To summarize

Guided mass drivers
-requires ammunition (less then missiles)
-in game would be medium-short to medium-long ranged (would have to be balanced)
-would have a variable initial launch velocity and variable drag. (perhaps a technology for each)
-range is based off of launch velocity and drag (self terminating once velocity reaches zero)
-cyclic rate would probably use capacitor recharge like missiles
-either seperate or built in power plant (whatever seems appropriate to steve)
-would require missile fire control

Again, what drag.  What is source.  All drive tech in Aurora is interia-less.  Both ships and missiles use the same tech and it's not warp-drives.  It does produce a "drive-bubble" hense no drag per the techno-babble when this was started.  I don't fully recall the techno-babble for the drive issues in nebula's though.  The plasma torps range limit is a function of being able to hold the plasma together effectively and degrades.

Perhaps the guidence package has some form of degridation over either range or time related endurance.

If your going to require ammunition then the cyclic rate should probably be at least partially tied to launcher reload rates similiar to missiles.  But capacitor recharge also makes sense.

[Zorgn]

Again, what drag.  What is source.

Once in the possession of sufficient quantities of the minerals, the scientists discovered the minerals somehow intruded into the space-time of the alternate dimension and that spacecraft built from these elements would be affected by some of the physical laws of that universe. They theorized that this would allow spacecraft to turn in space like ships in water but it would also quickly slow them to a stop if their engines ceased operating.

Wiki

I think that's his drag, which makes some sense to me. You'd have to fire your space bullet at incredible speeds to have it get anywhere, and I'd expect it to lose damage in the long run due to lessening speed unless it's explosive or something unusual. So basically normal railguns with a guidance package and possible boosting of the damage dealt at closer ranges. :shrug:

[Erik L]

Again, what drag.  What is source.

Once in the possession of sufficient quantities of the minerals, the scientists discovered the minerals somehow intruded into the space-time of the alternate dimension and that spacecraft built from these elements would be affected by some of the physical laws of that universe. They theorized that this would allow spacecraft to turn in space like ships in water but it would also quickly slow them to a stop if their engines ceased operating.

Wiki

I think that's his drag, which makes some sense to me. You'd have to fire your space bullet at incredible speeds to have it get anywhere, and I'd expect it to lose damage in the long run due to lessening speed unless it's explosive or something unusual. So basically normal railguns with a guidance package and possible boosting of the damage dealt at closer ranges. :shrug:

That particular wiki page was not written by Steve. I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm just saying it may not be 100% accurate.