PD Fighter Analysis

[Cobaia (OP)]

You can calculate the efficiency of your point defense like this. First get the base accuracy of your fire control at 10k km against the missiles using the box on the right hand side of the ship design window. For example you could set this 35000 km/s to see the fire control accuracy against missiles traveling that speed. These are the numbers beside your fire control.

Then you can figure it out like this:

Railgun = 4 shots @ 87% accuracy = 4 * 0.87 = 3.48 expected hits

Gauss Turrets = 48 shots (3x16) @ 8% of 87% accuracy = 48 * 0.87 * 0.08 = 3.34 expected hits

So in this case even if your turret tracking speed was the same as the fighter speed the rail gun would still be better. I suspect that's because you're wasting some tonnage on turret mounts. At RoF8 Railguns and Gauss should have the same performance per HS.

@rainyday

I'm placing the values as follows:
Range Bands: My BFC TS
Target Speed: Incoming Missile Speed

Using the following Inputs:
Range Bands: 60.000 km/s
Target Speed: 199.600 km/s (My Size 6 ASM Missile Speed)

With those inputs I'm getting 0.08% chance to hit.

So 48 * 0.08 * 0.08 = 0.30 Expected hits.

Is this correct?

FDF is always at 10k km, so the BFC gives 87% CTH due to range.
The gauss guns get 8% accuracy.
That speed difference gives 30% CTH.

48*0.08*0.87*0.3 = 1.00 expected hits.

I apologize but I'm missing something.

So since 10k km is the FDF base my inputs are:
Using the following Inputs:
Range Bands: 60.000 km/s
Target Speed: 10.000 km/s

When I compute those values where do I get the 87% from? I don't see it anywhere.

Also where did the 30% came from?

[Iceranger]

You can calculate the efficiency of your point defense like this. First get the base accuracy of your fire control at 10k km against the missiles using the box on the right hand side of the ship design window. For example you could set this 35000 km/s to see the fire control accuracy against missiles traveling that speed. These are the numbers beside your fire control.

Then you can figure it out like this:

Railgun = 4 shots @ 87% accuracy = 4 * 0.87 = 3.48 expected hits

Gauss Turrets = 48 shots (3x16) @ 8% of 87% accuracy = 48 * 0.87 * 0.08 = 3.34 expected hits

So in this case even if your turret tracking speed was the same as the fighter speed the rail gun would still be better. I suspect that's because you're wasting some tonnage on turret mounts. At RoF8 Railguns and Gauss should have the same performance per HS.

@rainyday

I'm placing the values as follows:
Range Bands: My BFC TS
Target Speed: Incoming Missile Speed

Using the following Inputs:
Range Bands: 60.000 km/s
Target Speed: 199.600 km/s (My Size 6 ASM Missile Speed)

With those inputs I'm getting 0.08% chance to hit.

So 48 * 0.08 * 0.08 = 0.30 Expected hits.

Is this correct?

Final PD always happens at 10kkm range, however changing the range band to 60kkm means the first number showing there is the accuracy at 60kkm. So the range band does not help with understanding that. (Also, gauss range above 10kkm does not help with final PD )

In your first post of your design, the range band is by default 10kkm.

Code: [Select]

Skynet Fighter Railgun BFC - R075 - TS5 - EH2 (1)     Max Range: 75 000 km   TS: 5 000 km/s     87 73 60 47 33 20 7 0 0 0
which means the BFC has an accuracy of 87% at 10kkm.

Alternatively, without relying on the range band readout, you can calculate your BFC's accuracy at 10kkm as

Code: [Select]

1 - 10000/(BFC max range) = 1 - 10000/75000 = 86.67%

The beam PD accuracy is calculated as

Code: [Select]

( min( 1, tracking/(target speed)*(1+tracking bonus) ) * (PD range penalty) - ECM ) * (CIC bonus) * (crew bonus) * (1/2 of commanding officer's tactical bonus) * (gauss size penalty)

Ignoring the tracking/crew bonus and stuff, and assume no ECM/ECCM difference, your hit chance against your missile with a single shot is (assuming your tracking speed is 60kkm/s

Code: [Select]

60 / 199.6 * 0.87 / 12 = 2.179%

I used 1/12 rather than 0.08 as the gauss size penalty since that is the 'actual' hit chance of a 1/12 sized (0.5HS) gauss.

So your gun firing 48 shots per tick has an average shot down of 48*2.179% = 1.046, so on average one missile per tick.

[liveware]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

What you need in that situation is longer range active sensors.

[liveware]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

What you need in that situation is longer range active sensors.

I am able to detect and track missiles outside of the range of my 100% CTH gauss cannon turrets, but my turrets never fire once missiles are in range and only my CIWS's fire. Fortunately my CIWS's seem capable of destroying all hostile salvos I have thus far encountered.

[Iceranger]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

What you need in that situation is longer range active sensors.

I am able to detect and track missiles outside of the range of my 100% CTH gauss cannon turrets, but my turrets never fire once missiles are in range and only my CIWS's fire. Fortunately my CIWS's seem capable of destroying all hostile salvos I have thus far encountered.

Did you set your Pd in area PD mode? Final fire is guaranteed to fire if the missile is detected before impact,  but area PD is not guaranteed.

[liveware]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

What you need in that situation is longer range active sensors.

I am able to detect and track missiles outside of the range of my 100% CTH gauss cannon turrets, but my turrets never fire once missiles are in range and only my CIWS's fire. Fortunately my CIWS's seem capable of destroying all hostile salvos I have thus far encountered.

Did you set your Pd in area PD mode? Final fire is guaranteed to fire if the missile is detected before impact,  but area PD is not guaranteed.

Gauss fire controls were set to FDF in my tests. Also, FWIW, my gauss tech range modifier is 40km. Incoming missiles are approximately 30-40 km/s and my own turret tracking speed is 16 km/s.

I understand my turrets are slow but I would still expect them to fire?

[Iceranger]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

What you need in that situation is longer range active sensors.

I am able to detect and track missiles outside of the range of my 100% CTH gauss cannon turrets, but my turrets never fire once missiles are in range and only my CIWS's fire. Fortunately my CIWS's seem capable of destroying all hostile salvos I have thus far encountered.

Did you set your Pd in area PD mode? Final fire is guaranteed to fire if the missile is detected before impact,  but area PD is not guaranteed.

Gauss fire controls were set to FDF in my tests. Also, FWIW, my gauss tech range modifier is 40km. Incoming missiles are approximately 30-40 km/s and my own turret tracking speed is 16 km/s.

I understand my turrets are slow but I would still expect them to fire?

Is there ECM on the incoming missiles? Do you have ECCM on your CIWS? Do you have ECCM for your gauss BFC?

[liveware]

So, I'm going to go a bit off-track but... what do you guys actually use PD fighters for? Apart from escorting bombers, obviously.

I prefer PD warships for other tasks. So I'm curious to hear if people have creative uses for PD fighters.
I mean, of course you can use fighters to double up as PD for anything...but I always found PD warships to be a better source of PD for fleets, and of course PD bases to protects planets or orbitals.

I have discovered the following problem in my games:

If enemy missiles can close to my own ships in less than 1 five second game increment, I cannot target them and they always hit, unless I use CIWS.

So my assumption is that with faster ships I will be able to eventually target incoming missiles by matching ship speed to missile speed appropriately.

What you need in that situation is longer range active sensors.

I am able to detect and track missiles outside of the range of my 100% CTH gauss cannon turrets, but my turrets never fire once missiles are in range and only my CIWS's fire. Fortunately my CIWS's seem capable of destroying all hostile salvos I have thus far encountered.

Did you set your Pd in area PD mode? Final fire is guaranteed to fire if the missile is detected before impact,  but area PD is not guaranteed.

Gauss fire controls were set to FDF in my tests. Also, FWIW, my gauss tech range modifier is 40km. Incoming missiles are approximately 30-40 km/s and my own turret tracking speed is 16 km/s.

I understand my turrets are slow but I would still expect them to fire?

Is there ECM on the incoming missiles? Do you have ECCM on your CIWS? Do you have ECCM for your gauss BFC?

1. Unknown (I assume yes)
2. Not sure (I have ECCM on my gauss BFC and I don't see a way to assign ECCM to CIWS)
3. Yes

[Iceranger]

Is there ECM on the incoming missiles? Do you have ECCM on your CIWS? Do you have ECCM for your gauss BFC?

1. Unknown (I assume yes)
2. Not sure (I have ECCM on my gauss BFC and I don't see a way to assign ECCM to CIWS)
3. Yes

ECCM on CIWS is added during the component design phase.

So far I haven't seen any issue for final PD not firing during my various tests. So if you can reproduce this reliably, you should report it as a bug.

[liveware]

Is there ECM on the incoming missiles? Do you have ECCM on your CIWS? Do you have ECCM for your gauss BFC?

1. Unknown (I assume yes)
2. Not sure (I have ECCM on my gauss BFC and I don't see a way to assign ECCM to CIWS)
3. Yes

ECCM on CIWS is added during the component design phase.

So far I haven't seen any issue for final PD not firing during my various tests. So if you can reproduce this reliably, you should report it as a bug.

Further testing required...

[Iceranger]

Is there ECM on the incoming missiles? Do you have ECCM on your CIWS? Do you have ECCM for your gauss BFC?

1. Unknown (I assume yes)
2. Not sure (I have ECCM on my gauss BFC and I don't see a way to assign ECCM to CIWS)
3. Yes

ECCM on CIWS is added during the component design phase.

So far I haven't seen any issue for final PD not firing during my various tests. So if you can reproduce this reliably, you should report it as a bug.

Further testing required...

Another possibility... did you actually turn on your active sensors to detect those missiles? Since you may just detect them on your thermal sensor so your BFC will not work... but CIWS will aways work regardless if there is an active lock on or not...

[liveware]

Is there ECM on the incoming missiles? Do you have ECCM on your CIWS? Do you have ECCM for your gauss BFC?

1. Unknown (I assume yes)
2. Not sure (I have ECCM on my gauss BFC and I don't see a way to assign ECCM to CIWS)
3. Yes

ECCM on CIWS is added during the component design phase.

So far I haven't seen any issue for final PD not firing during my various tests. So if you can reproduce this reliably, you should report it as a bug.

Further testing required...

Another possibility... did you actually turn on your active sensors to detect those missiles? Since you may just detect them on your thermal sensor so your BFC will not work... but CIWS will aways work regardless if there is an active lock on or not...

Yes. Active sensors were engaged.

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

Yes. Active sensors were engaged.

For the sake of pedantry, were the guns assigned to the PD FC?

[liveware]

Yes. Active sensors were engaged.

For the sake of pedantry, were the guns assigned to the PD FC?

Yes. Though no targets were assigned as all potential targets were outside of the firing range of the applicable guns and the game throws an annoying interrupt error in this situation. I was running on 5 second increments all the same as I had beam fighters and boarding craft closing on the hostile fleet.